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Should We Forgive Dhirmal And Co?


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a question which came into mind.....

we all know the akal takhat and its stance on dhirmal (the descendants of the gurus) family

"thou shall not talk to thy dhirmal or anyone related to him"

well not in those words but yeah.

there is of course baba vadbhag singh, who took amrit and hence we can talk to his family as they have officially been pardoned.

we also know why we should not talk to dhirmal and co

they got into chaduu tunaa, and tried to kill the gurus so they could be guru themselves.

but what if the family of dhirmal no longer does tunaa? what if certain members no longer do tunaa?

shouldnt we judge a man/woman on actions and deeds, and not ancestry. A basic Sikh principle?

what are your views

bhul chukke muaff

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a question which came into mind.....

we all know the akal takhat and its stance on dhirmal (the descendants of the gurus) family

"thou shall not talk to thy dhirmal or anyone related to him"

well not in those words but yeah.

there is of course baba vadbhag singh, who took amrit and hence we can talk to his family as they have officially been pardoned.

we also know why we should not talk to dhirmal and co

they got into chaduu tunaa, and tried to kill the gurus so they could be guru themselves.

but what if the family of dhirmal no longer does tunaa? what if certain members no longer do tunaa?

shouldnt we  judge a man/woman on actions and deeds, and not ancestry. A basic Sikh principle?

what are your views

bhul chukke muaff

150153[/snapback]

It's not about ancestry.... But about the fact that yes, they do Jado Tuna, Yes they did attempt to Kill Guru Ji, Yes they still have Kartarpuri Beer in their hands - if they sincerely want an apology they shuld hand back kartarpuri beer and get intiated into Khalsa Panth, like the order you have paraphrased.

The order does not only say that you shoulnd't associate with them but also that they should be treated like brothers when they have been blessed with Amrit.

As for Vadhbhag SIngh, seems to be a rather dubious character. I do not know much about him, hwoever there has been some several hundred posts long debates on him and his dera (including whether there's still jaado toona there or not) on tapoban.org.. so for more info on Vadbhag singh i recommend you go tapoban.. :TH:

bhull chukk maaf

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Baba Vadhbhag Singh Ji is a khalsa, I have been to the dera in hp and its quite a spooky place but at the same time it has helped many people including some of my closest family members I would like to write more about Babaji but I could be here for a while there is alot of history. I would not bother reading anything on the website referred to by the last poster (no offence) as I have found that it is a forum of fanatical opinions when engaging in hardcore facts about sikhi I find that when you challenge them on sikhi they always bring up the sayings of their own enlightened master rather than backing up their new maryada and rituals from sikhi of the 1699 version, sorry but thats how i feel about the organisation. no.gif

Intolerance breeds intolerance!!!!! :)

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It's not about ancestry.... But about the fact that yes, they do Jado Tuna, Yes they did attempt to Kill Guru Ji, Yes they still have Kartarpuri Beer in their hands - if they sincerely want an apology they shuld hand back kartarpuri beer and get intiated into Khalsa Panth, like the order you have paraphrased.

that doesnt make sense at all, the people who are in dhirmals family didnt try to kill guru ji (the ones that are living now), but in fact it was their predecessors and for all you know some people in that family may have given up jadoo tunaa.

can anyone give us more info on baba vadbhag singh?

but yeah, back to the original question

shouldnt we judge a man/woman on actions and deeds, and not ancestry. A basic Sikh principle?

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It's not about ancestry.... But about the fact that yes, they do Jado Tuna, Yes they did attempt to Kill Guru Ji, Yes they still have Kartarpuri Beer in their hands - if they sincerely want an apology they shuld hand back kartarpuri beer and get intiated into Khalsa Panth, like the order you have paraphrased.

that doesnt make sense at all, the people who are in dhirmals family didnt try to kill guru ji (the ones that are living now), but in fact it was their predecessors and for all you know some people in that family may have given up jadoo tunaa.

can anyone give us more info on baba vadbhag singh?

but yeah, back to the original question

shouldnt we judge a man/woman on actions and deeds, and not ancestry. A basic Sikh principle?

150249[/snapback]

Thing of it is that if they do not agree with their actions tey would have left Dharmilliye sect to begin with, and then they cannot be refered as dhirmaliye.

It's not about ancestry, it's abut belonging to a sect. It's the same with the Fake Nirankar sect Gurbachan Singh who was a decendant of other fake nirankaris. Should we accept Bachan Singhs decendants, because they are not doing the same things as their father? If they refuse to believe in their beliefs then they can be forgiven. Just likr if I decide to join the nirankaris or dhirmaliyes, I would be included in that group SIkhs are not be associate with, even though i genetically don't have anything to do with dhirmall. Same way if a person from dhirmal sect decids to leave the sect then i se no problem in them being forgiven.

As for Vadhbhag Singh, ISDhillon jeyo you write -

I have been to the dera in hp and its quite a spooky place but at the same time it has helped many people including some of my closest family members

What exactly makes it spooky?

As mentioned, I do not have any knowledge about them, however it seems like, rom toher who have been there that they still are doing kala jado, something you have not denied..

Also in what way exactly have they heped your family members - bhoot bhreets?

Again I'm simply basing on what my own family members have told me (my grand mother was going to go there but for some reason wasn't able to and today thanks God for not allowing her to go - Why? I am not sure), and what other people who have been there have written.

Please do not attack me about Vadhbhag SIngh as I, as mentioned do not know much about him and his dera. However one question that could be raised is - are his decendants (Vadbhag Singh's) Sikhs, i.e following Panthic Maryada without any jado toonas etc - do they all take Khandey Bettey di Pahul??

Bhull chukk maaf

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Lion King Ji I really have not attacked you and I dont have the energy to write about Babaji in length but I did write quite a bit a while back and it was in response to people who had been affected by the soul of another dead person I then retold them my family experience please read below there is quite alot of info in my response, stuff I missed out was that after the jadooo toonaa stuff was rebutted some nihang faction decided to smear babaji and created lies about his ruthlessness in battle you will regularly hear stories about stuffing muslim dead bodies with pork and marrying all muslim widows to low caste hindus through slave markets, these are lies, what in fact happened was that babaji swore that he would avenge one of the mulims at that time who attacked jalandhar but the muslim guy died and so he exhumed his body and burnt it so that he would not go to jannat on judgement day, this does not mean that babaji was a believer in islam i think it was just done to make an example out of the tyrant. btw they have nothing to do with seperate maryada and dhirmal. Anyhow here is my response from a while back on another website about possession in sikhi its got some info of baba ji in it you will have to sift it out though as it was a personal recollection from my experience:

jamdoot.gif

My Mothers Family

My mums brother (uncle) was to be married in the year of ‘82’ I was only 2 at the time so didn’t really know much of what was going on around me. My uncle took refuge in our house during this time as he did not want to get married to this woman (aunty) from India. She came over anyway and the family did not want to return her so they pressurized their son into marrying this awful women. When she became nicely established in the family nest she realised that my mother harboured my uncle and felt that she was a potential threat to her legalization in this country and therefore resented my mother from the beginning of her marriage to my uncle. (This will come into play later)

Years of illness?

My mother was very ill at the age of 25 – 30 she kept slipping her discs in her spine and I remember once having to use a spoon to prize open her teeth when she went into a fit, she used to walk on her hands and feet around the house as she could not stand up because of the pain and agony she was in. She was then prescribed a course of steroids which made her really obese. I never really noticed much of this because she was my cuddly old mother it didn’t matter during those years as long as she was there. She was once prescribed convalescence where she went to a popular seaside resort for 1 month and we never heard site nor sound of her just the 1 postcard is all I can remember ,our dad used to say to us that she was tired and had gone on holiday, the doctors said she needed counselling cos she was depressed.

Strange goings on!

One day we went to the temple and my mum just sat at the back of the hall laughing to herself, she then got up and came over to me and said this is bloody <admin-profanity filter activated> I’m going home, I was shocked. One day we had visitors my dads brother came round and in the proper style of a desi family they all started drinking Bacardi, my mum and me my brother and sister were sitting in the other room and for some reason she got of her seat walked into the front room where the men were sitting and took the alcohol out of their hands one by one and proceeded to tip the entire contents down the sink including the bottles which had not been opened. The men all looked at my dad dumbfounded he didn’t know where to look he proceeded to tell them that she hadn’t been feeling well lately.

Abuse

One night we were all asleep and there was a terrifying scream sounded like an old man I didn’t dare get out of my bed I was too scared. The next day my mum was putting self-embrocating cream on what looked like cut marks on her back I started thinking my dad was hurting her and my resentment towards my dad had started to grow. I must take this time to state that our mother was never funny towards us children we were always treated exactly the same as we are today. These episodes continued they included irregular ticks, spitting, swearing, grunting and knightmares and for 3 years I never remember my mum coming with us to the gurdwara I think my dad was scared to bring her.

Physical change

I never noticed the change in my mothers face and body I don’t know whether it was because I was too young but when I look at the pictures of my mum when she was possessed and how she looks now no-one today could say they were the same person, even the sceptics. Her eyes were puffed up, she looked like she was on crack.

Good karma

My mum could not hold a steady job because of the way she was, she went to an Indian suit shop one day and the women asked her if she would like to do a few hours in the shop and that the work would not require much just showing women cloth etc. she started working there and her employee bless her soul said to her that if she like she could help her get better, they believe in a sikh baba called Baba Vadh Bhag Singh Ji and ran the langar at their dera, my mum wanted to get better but boy she did not know what she was in for.

Baba vadhbhag singh ji

Baba ji was a follower of dhirmal, that’s right one of the reprobates, however as his spiritual powers grew he defected and became a sikh, he was from the family of the sodhis and therefore had that bond with Guru Gobind Singh Ji, he also fought in the khalsa battles with the moghuls. He is looked at with contempt by the sikh community because of his link with dhirmal, and for this reason the sikh community regards this person and their legacy as a taboo. In the mountains of Himachal Pradesh their was a place called dolidhaar it is a waterfall, and at this waterfall there was a tree, baba ji one day sat by this tree and the village folk told him he should not sit there cos there was an evil demon called naarsingh.

Naarsingh

Naarsingh is known in the hindu mythology as the manlion demon, he is quite a scary looking thing with horns and teeth and all. Naarsingh used to kill the village people in the district and eat them I believe he also had several brothers and sisiters which were similar to him I cant remember the specifics it very sketchy to me now.

The test

Naarsingh came out of the water and asked baba ji why he was not scared of him that he would eat him as he was hungry, baba ji said to him if you are more powerful than me then prove it there is a small cage here (I have seen this cage) make yourself small enough to fit into it, he then shrunk himself down to a size of a hobbit and went into the cage, baba ji then used his power to entrap the demon the demon pleaded with him and promised to give up his ill ways. Baba ji then let him out, and roped the demon into his service for the rest of eternity at the dera, his soul hovers at the dera.

Treatment

The idea is that you go under the waterfall (doolidhaar) and this shocks your system cos the water is blessed supposedly by the touch of god, however it is not that simple. What I saw when I went there was quite horrific, there was a women who refused to go under the waterfall so this singh dragged her by her hair and forced her to say waheguru she kept refusing so then he pulled out a chimta (instrument) and proceeded to smack this on her head until she became passive this women had so much power her eyes rolled up into their whites and she kicked him in the balls and started to run up the mountain side, to get away but there were a party of security sants waiting for her and they dragged her back down to the water fall.

A boy who was brought by his parents was very scared I think they thought he was ‘ill’ too they didn’t look after him and went into the waterfall without him I could see the fear in his eyes it was more than just the fear of cold water, when they came back they asked him if he went under the water fall he said yes, I said that he was lying and that he never went anywhere near the water I did this for his own good he went under the water unwillingly.

Frenzy

The next bout of treatment involves going back to the valley to a gurdwara called manji sahib, this is where it all happens. The souls of baba ji and naar singh go into the people who are possessed and shake the spirit out of them and this is quite something. The men and women jump up out of the blue and start shaking their heads around violently, mens turbans go flying into the air, there is spit flying through the air and the stench of vomit is unbearable. When my mum went to this temple she cried a lot and started to talk In a mans voice, he told one of the sants who he was and where he came from and who sent him. There was a lady who sat not to far from us and she laughed at my mums vulnerability towards the end of the night she too started dancing erratically and screaming jai babe di at the top of her lungs I could hear a voice in her saying “hun haass” meaning laugh now!

The possessed people don’t always get better there some of them spend most of their time beating one another up it reminds me of a scene out of from dusk till dawn where all the people in the bar turn into vampires and start fighting, although there was never any blood shed. If you have been possessed then married to someone it is harder to get rid of it cos that thing gets married to you also. There is supposedly a spiritual net that these digressed souls are collected in, they are not punished they are just given their due. If you take the largest boned limb from a funeral pyre you can tame and train the soul by powdering the bone and feeding it to your victim, the soul recognises the largest limb more. And would welcome the opportunity of having a new body. A mental disorder does occur this is when the mind doesn’t realise which soul is influencing it because there are 2 at the same time in one body.

Perpetrators

My mum was not told directly by the sant who? did this too her ,what they said was that spiritual ethics did not allow them to divulge that information, but they said that when she would come back home she would realise who it was cos that person would drop such a bombshell on our lives that we would never be able to confront them with our accusation. When my mum came home from India she received a call from her sister and she asked them why her brothers family had not come to see her now she was back from India, her sister said to her you should be asking your husband what he’s been up to whilst you’ve been in India. My mother asked no its ok why don’t you tell me, her sister proceeded to tell her that whilst my mum was in India my dad had gone round to my aunties house and touched her up and she was forced to lock herself in her bedroom. My dad had actually not done this at all he even offered to swear by this at the temple if need be but she (my aunt) knew that one taboo could trump another! And to this day my mum has never spoken to or seen her brother in 15 years.

Miscellaneous

Every hollah guru gobind singh ji after blessing the sangat at anandpur goes and puts his panja at baba vadbhag singh ji dera and blesses the parshad if the parshad is pure the sangat are released (shutti) if it is impure they have to chuck the parshad awayand make it again until it is pure enough to be blessed , this is because during the last part of baba ji’s life he told his sister that he was going to god ,and that his body should not be burned , he did indeed leave his mortal coil and ascended the heavens this was an attempt to ask god for recognition so that those who had spiritual disorders could find relief somewhere in sikhi, when in communion with god he realised that his body was being burned and by time he assumed his mortal coil half of his body had been burned and he screamed out to his sister why they had burned his body she cryed out loud saying she didn’t think he was going to ever come back and his body would rot and that would be a dishonour to him. There was at that time a dog at baba ji funeral and the dog was killed and baba ji assumed the coil of the dog when baba jis horse saw that his master had died he became furious and galloped into the mountains and smacked his hoofs on the side if a cliff rock these hoof prints are in the mountains and when somebody touches them they start to ‘play up’ if their possessed thers a lot of shakti in those hoof prints. I think they believe that Guru Gobind Singh Ji puts his panja there to honour baba ji for his service to humanity. I know a lot of people will disagree with me but this is what I am told.

This may well be superstition but my mothers better for it, and theres something there that cannot be measured by scientists and that is the spirit. I am not advertising any dera this is for information purposes only, and you should only go there if your ill and not the theatrics!!.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

:)

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Naarsingh

Naarsingh is known in the hindu mythology as the manlion demon, he is quite a scary looking thing with horns and teeth and all. Naarsingh used to kill the village people in the district and eat them I believe he also had several brothers and sisiters which were similar to him I cant remember the specifics it very sketchy to me now.

The test

Naarsingh came out of the water and asked baba ji why he was not scared of him that he would eat him as he was hungry, baba ji said to him if you are more powerful than me then prove it there is a small cage here (I have seen this cage) make yourself small enough to fit into it, he then shrunk himself down to a size of a hobbit and went into the cage, baba ji then used his power to entrap the demon the demon pleaded with him and promised to give up his ill ways. Baba ji then let him out, and roped the demon into his service for the rest of eternity at the dera, his soul hovers at the dera.

WJKK WJKF

wasnt naarsingh the form that god took in order to kill Harnakash and save Bhagat Prahlad

kbIr kw sbdu rwgu mwrU bwxI nwmdyau jI kI

<> siqgur pRswid ]

cwir mukiq cwrY isiD imil kY dUlh pRB kI srin pirE ]

mukiq BieE cauhUM jug jwinE jsu kIriq mwQY CqRü DirE ]1]

rwjw rwm jpq ko ko n qirE ]

gur aupdyis swD kI sMgiq Bgqu Bgqu qw ko nwmu pirE ]1] rhwau ]

sMK ck® mwlw iqlku ibrwijq dyiK pRqwpu jmu firE ]

inrBau Bey rwm bl grijq jnm mrn sMqwp ihirE ]2]

AMbrIk kau dIE ABY pdu rwju BBIKn AiDk kirE ]

nau iniD Twkuir deI sudwmY DR¨A Atlu AjhU n tirE ]3]

Bgq hyiq mwirE hrnwKsu nrisMG rUp hoie dyh DirE ]

nwmw khY Bgiq bis kysv AjhUM bil ky duAwr Kro ]4]1]

kabeer kaa sabadh raag maaroo baanee naamadhaeo jee kee

ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||

chaar mukath chaarai sidhh mil kai dhooleh prabh kee saran pariou ||

mukath bhaeiou chouhoo(n) jug jaaniou jas keerath maathhai shhathra dhhariou ||1||

raajaa raam japath ko ko n thariou ||

gur oupadhaes saadhh kee sa(n)gath bhagath bhagath thaa ko naam pariou ||1|| rehaao ||

sa(n)kh chakr maalaa thilak biraajith dhaekh prathaap jam ddariou ||

nirabho bheae raam bal garajith janam maran sa(n)thaap hiriou ||2||

a(n)bareek ko dheeou abhai padh raaj bhabheekhan adhhik kariou ||

no nidhh t(h)aakur dhee sudhaamai dhhrooa attal ajehoo n ttariou ||3||

bhagath haeth maariou haranaakhas narasi(n)gh roop hoe dhaeh dhhariou ||

naamaa kehai bhagath bas kaesav ajehoo(n) bal kae dhuaar kharo ||4||1||

Shabad Of Kabeer, Raag Maaroo, The Word Of Naam Dayv Jee:

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

I have obtained the four kinds of liberation, and the four miraculous spiritual powers, in the Sanctuary of God, my Husband Lord.

I am liberated, and famous throughout the four ages; the canopy of praise and fame waves over my head. ||1||

Meditating on the Sovereign Lord God, who has not been saved?

Whoever follows the Guru's Teachings and joins the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is called the most devoted of the devotees. ||1||Pause||

He is adorned with the conch, the chakra, the mala and the ceremonial tilak mark on his forehead; gazing upon his radiant glory, the Messenger of Death is scared away.

He becomes fearless, and the power of the Lord thunders through him; the pains of birth and death are taken away. ||2||

The Lord blessed Ambreek with fearless dignity, and elevated Bhabhikhan to become king.

Sudama's Lord and Master blessed him with the nine treasures; he made Dhroo permanent and unmoving; as the north star, he still hasn't moved. ||3||

For the sake of His devotee Prahlaad, God assumed the form of the man-lion, and killed Harnaakhash.

Says Naam Dayv, the beautiful-haired Lord is in the power of His devotees; He is standing at Balraja's door, even now! ||4||1||

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To be honest, I havn't had time to look at it yet, however i noticed you posted the same movie at tapoban, whihc brought quite a few responses -

http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=70502&t=70502

Letter from troubled youth to Bhai Randhir SIngh regarding the Dera -

http://www.tapoban.org/Loving%20Letter%20t...led%20Youth.pdf

The letter speaks for itself.

I suggest everyone to read through everything and not just one side of the coin, and make their own conclusion.

Bhull chukk maaf karni..

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