A woman's point of view....

[V]

- If a woman is menstruating, is she not tyaar bar tyaar?  If only one who is "tyaar bar tyaar" can meet Vahiguroo, then is a woman not able to attain Vahiguroo?

Bhainji, Dhan Bhaaag ... what a wicked way to put it ... and WICKED response as well....

... and Mr.Singh... u said ...

Japman Singh ji mad a really nice post about how conceptionally Periods is like swearing

.....i think you mean sweating ! :umm:

yeah and that was meant to be spelled MADE,

which i realise should have been WROTE :H: : :cool::

I guess what one of the bhenjis on the fourm once said is true -

my writing is atrocious

BHULL CHUKK MAAF

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Gupat Singhni]

Nicely summarised there bhenji!

[Mkhalsa]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

ok i'm afraid i disagree im all up for equality and that however i was thinkin about this after reading the one that got locked and i thiink that if a woman was supposed to have been in the panj pyaree she wud have been, if u think about panaa as in igf its supposed to happen it will (i dunno if i spelt it right) but maybe thats jus the way its supposed to be.

i dont mean to offend anyone and am jus expressin my opinion

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

again, i will post my article: http://www.mkhalsa.com/lit/femalepanj.html

"rehat is same and Amrit is same but Guru Ji asked for a head and no women stood up....Guru Ji could've chosen any woman but he didn't. No woman gave her head so why should women be in this seva? Five men stood up which was not a coincidence. "

Jeeo,

Think about this: Only 5 people from specific castes stood up as well. Does that mean Panj Pyare can only be khatri, jatt, water carrier, clothes washer, or barber?

What about a Chumar (shoe maker) or Tarkhan? Can they not be in the Panj Pyare then? Your whole argument is illogical. What about gorae Sikhs, some white person may have been there, and there definitely were those of Muslim descent, can they not be Panj Pyare either?

I keep hearing this argument again and again, but it makes no sense.

"If women be in Panj Pyare then it becomes Panj Pyareean."

is it not practice to call gursikhs in the "they" form. such as Baba Jarnail Singh Jee Bhindra Valae, not Bhindra Vala.. same for singhnee not valee but valae... thus it would still be punj pyarae.

Also, If women are in the Khalsa, why aren’t they called Khalsee? We are all Khalsa, regardless of gender.

"Women (men in this world, we all have female souls according to bani) are already in Panj Pyare. So what is the problem? All are women and women are in panj pyare. So nothing should change. Right? "

Right, nothing should change, women are already in panj pyare and have been for hundreds of years, and will continue to be, whether they are women in human form or not. What needs to change is peoples attitudes.

--Daas Mkhalsa

[Guest Sony]

mÚ 1 ]

ma 1 ||

First Mehl:

BMif jMmIAY BMif inMmIAY BMif mMgxu vIAwhu ]

bha(n)dd ja(n)meeai bha(n)dd ni(n)meeai bha(n)dd ma(n)gan veeaahu ||

From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.

BMfhu hovY dosqI BMfhu clY rwhu ]

bha(n)ddahu hovai dhosathee bha(n)ddahu chalai raahu ||

Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.

BMfu muAw BMfu BwlIAY BMif hovY bMDwnu ]

bha(n)dd muaa bha(n)dd bhaaleeai bha(n)dd hovai ba(n)dhhaan ||

When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.

an style='color:080088'>so ikau mMdw AwKIAY ijqu jMmih rwjwn ]

so kio ma(n)dhaa aakheeai jith ja(n)mehi raajaan ||

So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.

BMfhu hI BMfu aUpjY BMfY bwJu n koie ]

bha(n)ddahu hee bha(n)dd oopajai bha(n)ddai baajh n koe ||

From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.

nwnk BMfY bwhrw eyko scw soie ]

naanak bha(n)ddai baaharaa eaeko sachaa soe ||

O Nanak, only the True Lord is without a woman.

ijqu muiK sdw swlwhIAY Bwgw rqI cwir ]

jith mukh sadhaa saalaaheeai bhaagaa rathee chaar ||

That mouth which praises the Lord continually is blessed and beautiful.

nwnk qy muK aUjly iqqu scY drbwir ]2]

naanak thae mukh oojalae thith sachai dharabaar ||2||

O Nanak, those faces shall be radiant in the Court of the True Lord. ||2||

[Guest JSS]

i always knew sony was a smart one.........but this is just over the top......you definately gained something from me.....hahahaha........

(disclaimer: i was just kidding...she's naturally smart....nothing to do with me)

[Amrit]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

:awesome

Wiked post bhen ji

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Guest Sony]

i always knew sony was a smart one.........but this is just over the top......you definately gained something from me.....hahahaha........

(disclaimer: i was just kidding...she's naturally smart....nothing to do with me)

Veerji,

someone always gains something from you :umm:

and me smart? long way for me to go to be that

[khalsa mero roop]

Well said!!!!!

[Khalsa_starr]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Well said, well said. I believe there could have been a female guru if the chance was given (this coming from a learner).

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[DAVINDERSINGH]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Sikh women (and women in general), until recently, have been suppressed in every way imaginable around the world. I think that socially women should have equal opportunity without any discrimination just as most men have. But this is not the case, even in the west. I was reading in a magazine just last month that on average women make significantly less than what men make for the same position. So there really isn’t any total equality even in places that are considered to have the most advanced culture. Why hasn’t there ever been a female president in the US? Women still have a long way to go still.

In a “desi” Punjabi household (don’t know about others) in Canada/US, the man runs everything and has a very easy life compared to the wife. The wife does as much as 3 times the work in many cases. The wife is often on the receiving end of abuse and beatings. Clearly there is no equality in Sikh/Punjabi homes today.

When Guru Nanak Dev Jee came to this world he saw that women were treated inferior to men. Some were even killed when born. Guru sahib rose up and strongly opposed these practises. They gave women the respect that they deserved. Guru Sahib made women’s life actually worth living.

Last year I was talking to some very Chardi Kala Singhs and I asked them if Bibbian should be allowed to do kirtan/sewa at Darbaar Sahib and panj payarrain de sewa at amrit sanchaars. They clearly told me that sikhi and the Guru’s for sure gave women a respectable status, but by no means equality. They asked me

to do research on my own and see if I could find a single instance where they could be disproved.

This may have sounded harsh but if you really think about this it’s true. The rehit maryada or sikh history nowhere talks about equality of men or women. So without this it could actually mean that when a Singh shows a Bibi “respect” it doesn’t necessarily does not mean that the Bibi is “equal,” she could possibly have a higher place then a singh as well. But there is no pangati in bani that says anything other than respecting women and not mistreating them. But i haven't found anything on womens equality anywhere in sikhi.

I think that the whole equality argument can be thrown out the window! It just doesn’t make sense to fight over being the in the panj just for the sake of proving to be equal while doing 3 times the work at home. It doesn’t make sense. If you are out to prove that you are equal to men then you should have the power to be equal at all times and in all situations.

I don’t know how doing sewa in an amritsanchaar makes one “equal.”

More importantly being selected in the panj is not a small thing as most of us on this site seem to think. There is a lot riding on the 5 singhs. They are chosen to represent Akalpurkh himself. Amrit does not come as cheaply as it’s given these days. No wonder the kinds of miracles that used to happen at amritsanchaars 40 years ago don’t happen now. Having the wrong people in amritsanchaars is one of the reasons why the panth is not is chardi kala.

There are some things in the panth today that need to be changed because they are not in line with gurmat sidhaant. But some things are foundations that this great panth is standing upon. Amrit sanchaar is perhaps the greatest even in ones life. And so it should not be altered one bit.

Most of sikhi is based on sinna baseena tradition-from one generation to the next. If Bibbian were destined to be in an AmritSanchaar then, guru sahib WOULD HAVE forseen this and would have s

pecifically mentioned that bibbian be in amritsanchaars. And if that was acceptable, then over the years of recorded ithaas there would have been some writings that tell us of babbian doing sewa in the panj. Why would you change something that has been preformed for over 300 years? I never see anyone complain about dhaggai/tweet/kumb/narial/joyt and other anti-gurmat stuff like that, which some consider to be maryada as well. So lets be a little thoughtful.

I don’t know why babbian make a big deal out of this every few weeks. The babbian that read this, sorry to be so harsh, but, do u guys actually fit the qualifications of being a panj? I have seen a few brahmgiani-bibbian and they don’t spend their time on the internet but are busy doing abhayas, paath and kirtan all day. I have never seen them ask for “equal rights” for themselves and to do sewa in the panj. Sure if your awastha is up there then you can discuss this. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think I will ever be ready to be in the panj because I lack everything needed to do this sewa.

Perhaps you babbian can tell everyone why you/babbian should be in the panj payarrai?(other than proving equality) I can’t think of any, maybe because im a singh. But honestly I don’t think it matters where a person is doing sewa in an amritsanchaar or not. Amritsanchaar is not some publicity stunt that everyone wants to take part in.

Finally these things are just an impediment to spiritual progress. I had a day off today and just wasted many hours debating this issue. This post came out in the end, which you guys could do without.

Gurbani says that the khoojee progresses by meditating oh naam and the debater is destroyed through debate(not doing simran) all these debates are useless! No one learns anything, they’re just used to pass time. The collective effort that we spend on reading and responding to debates such as this adds up to a enormous amount of time and energy. We would all become brahmgianis if that could be spent properly.

r>

By the way I am all for womens equality, but I just think tradition and the 300 year old maryada comes before anything else. I wrote a 6 page essay highlighting Mata Bhaag Kaur Jee a few years ago and even got $500 for it :umm:

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!