Punjabiyat - An issue for Sikhs

[Guest GuestSingh]

Lots of plausible reasons mentioned which just shows the complexity of it.

Another may be a fear that losing certain traditions and customs will mean a loss of identity, maybe not feeling like a Panjabi or enough of one.

There's a lot of pride associated with it and that's a problem - is there any desire or focus to search for traditional cultural norms let alone Sikhi?

Some of this is understandable given the threat of extinction by the suleh, chitteh and now hindus as well as but if it is true, we should try to educate or make them aware that we can retain the positive parts of our culture and still feel like a Panjabi and even use them to strengthen our faith because there are some similarities e.g. the language and certain types of work.

[TejS]

16 hours ago, BhForce said:

No it is not. It is extremely constructive. This is the culture that Guru Sahib lived in, and changed some bad parts. Punjabi culture is much more conducive to human happiness than modern mainstream British/American culture.

You sound like a Jacobin from the French Revolution.

Most of the customs are destructive? Is there a percentagewise list?

You've set up a strawman, then are attempting to alight it.

Punjabi culture does not advocate drowning yourself in drink, or of drinking in public. If you want to say that's Punjabi culture, then you might as well also saying that drinking is part of the Sikh rehit.

Authentic Punjabi culture only allows for a bit of drink behind closed doors when guests visit.

Also, so-called "bhangra" is not a part of Punjabi culture. Rather, it's simply a dance to celebrate farmers' harvests. It's for men only. Male-female dancing (whether "bhangra" or otherwise) is not a part of Punjabi culture. Finally, girls dancing (whether giddha or otherwise) with men watching is also not a part of authentic Punjabi culture. (I realize that there was prostitution, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the "mainstream".)

So if you were just to follow authentic Punjabi culture, you'd be in a pretty good place (better than mainstream British/American culture or fake Punjabi culture). Of course Sikhism goes a step further, and nasha is outright banned in the rehit.

Is it really the culture that Guru Sahib accepted though? Was he not the one that saw the rampant misogyny, that still exists to this day, and rejected it? Was it not the culture's ignorant ways that led him to yearn for realization and from that realization establish Sikhi? Are those actions considered changing "some bad parts"?

Jacobin really? Is it only because I'm trying to propose the removal of our old ways?

The culture is a boastful, misogynistic, Brahmanic, casteist, way of life. Yes, there is some good to it, such as its familial system, but as a whole, I don't see it being all constructive. Perhaps you'll enlighten me?

Punjabi culture in its boastful, bravado ways allows for many things intoxicating than a "bit of drink". One thing it doesn't allow is education, which our people desperately need.

Clearly the authentic Punjabi culture you are supposedly talking about is not in practice, and therefore is a thing of the past. Things are only going to get worse from here. 

Instead of trying to cling onto a culture that we have no need of, what is wrong in accepting the culture encompassed in Sikhi, for there is a whole culture in it?

 

[TejS]

17 hours ago, CharhdiKala said:

That elitist attitude exists in all states in India not just Punjab. The upper castes in all states look down on the lower castes. Anyway Ambedkar was right, the vast majority of Sikhs believe in some form of caste system. Maybe it will go away in a couple of generations.

Even Muslims in Pakistan and India  practice some form of caste system. It is too ingrained. At the end of the day if someone is born into a higher caste and has power of lower castes, why would he want to give that up?

Personally I would like people in Punjab to become more literate and educated. Punjab is not know for academics and that is what needs to change.

I disagree that an elitist attitude exists in all states of India. Punjabi and Punjabi culture endorse an extremely boastful nature which has seeped into Sikh attitudes as well. I've seen Punjabi look down on anyone just because of their appearance or caste, we're as worse as white people during colonialism. I'll hear our fellow Punjabi boasting about conquering Alexander, having the largest empire in India, and single handedly defeating the Mughals because of this boastful, elitist attitude. It's this kind of attitude that drives people away Sikhi, as most equate Sikhi to Punjabi, which is not true at all.

You're definitely right about Punjabi, especially Sikhs, needing to chase after academics.

[CharhdiKala]

6 hours ago, TejS said:

I disagree that an elitist attitude exists in all states of India. Punjabi and Punjabi culture endorse an extremely boastful nature which has seeped into Sikh attitudes as well. I've seen Punjabi look down on anyone just because of their appearance or caste, we're as worse as white people during colonialism. I'll hear our fellow Punjabi boasting about conquering Alexander, having the largest empire in India, and single handedly defeating the Mughals because of this boastful, elitist attitude. It's this kind of attitude that drives people away Sikhi, as most equate Sikhi to Punjabi, which is not true at all.

You're definitely right about Punjabi, especially Sikhs, needing to chase after academics.

Yes I agree with that there is too much boastfulness but most of it is coming from a Sikh perspective.

It is we Sikhs who boast about ending the Mughal Empire when the reality was that the Marathas had more of an impact and controlled far more of India than we did. We were the last to fold to the British though.

We make up nonsense stories about the Americans wanting to build a statue of Hari Singh Nalwa in the white house or NASA keeping a copy of the Guru Granth Sahib and consulting it to discover new things in the universe.

It is we Sikhs (rather than Punjabi Hindus) who refer to all non Punjabis as Bhaiyas. We refer to all Hindus as Bahmans. We are racist and most of that comes from Sikh elitism rather than Punjabi.

So many Sikhs are so dumb that they think the word Punjabi means Sikh. If you say to most Sikhs that so and so is a Punjabi they will think that the only religion that person can be is a Sikh. This is despite Punjab only being 60% Sikh. How dumb can people be that they don't realise that 40% of the people in their state don't follow the same religion as them? It should be blatantly obvious, but not to a large portion of Sikhs.

We boast about our contribution to Indian Independence, World War 2, The wars with Pakistan, and in these wars we were just used as pawns on the frontlines fighting other people's battles and sacrificing a disproportionate amount of lives. 

It's time for Sikhs to truly get educated and become mangers and CEOs of companies, not just remain as farmers or soldiers fighting other people's wars.

[TejS]

6 hours ago, CharhdiKala said:

Yes I agree with that there is too much boastfulness but most of it is coming from a Sikh perspective.

It is we Sikhs who boast about ending the Mughal Empire when the reality was that the Marathas had more of an impact and controlled far more of India than we did. We were the last to fold to the British though.

We make up nonsense stories about the Americans wanting to build a statue of Hari Singh Nalwa in the white house or NASA keeping a copy of the Guru Granth Sahib and consulting it to discover new things in the universe.

It is we Sikhs (rather than Punjabi Hindus) who refer to all non Punjabis as Bhaiyas. We refer to all Hindus as Bahmans. We are racist and most of that comes from Sikh elitism rather than Punjabi.

So many Sikhs are so dumb that they think the word Punjabi means Sikh. If you say to most Sikhs that so and so is a Punjabi they will think that the only religion that person can be is a Sikh. This is despite Punjab only being 60% Sikh. How dumb can people be that they don't realise that 40% of the people in their state don't follow the same religion as them? It should be blatantly obvious, but not to a large portion of Sikhs.

We boast about our contribution to Indian Independence, World War 2, The wars with Pakistan, and in these wars we were just used as pawns on the frontlines fighting other people's battles and sacrificing a disproportionate amount of lives. 

It's time for Sikhs to truly get educated and become mangers and CEOs of companies, not just remain as farmers or soldiers fighting other people's wars.

And I think a reason only Sikh people do it is because of the boastful nature of Punjabi culture, which our Muslim and Hindu counterparts have shed. Sikhi itself banishes any sort of egotistical behavior.

You're exactly right, we have these false narratives spread among the community of conquering Afghanistan, and defeating the Mughal Empire single handedly when none of this is true. And it seems like we're trying to make up for something, when the fact is that what our ancestors accomplished was more than enough given their population size.

I fully agree that we need to stop fighting other people's wars and get into fields that can lead to power, and finance is key to that.

[CHaamCHrick]

.

[TejS]

9 hours ago, CHaamCHrick said:

Ah, yes, very 'familial' indeed.

????

[CharhdiKala]

16 hours ago, TejS said:

And I think a reason only Sikh people do it is because of the boastful nature of Punjabi culture, which our Muslim and Hindu counterparts have shed. Sikhi itself banishes any sort of egotistical behavior.

You're exactly right, we have these false narratives spread among the community of conquering Afghanistan, and defeating the Mughal Empire single handedly when none of this is true. And it seems like we're trying to make up for something, when the fact is that what our ancestors accomplished was more than enough given their population size.

I fully agree that we need to stop fighting other people's wars and get into fields that can lead to power, and finance is key to that.

We might be boastful simply due to the fact that we have always punched above our weight. The Sikh Empire was a great achievement and in all of the land that was ruled Sikhs must have been a total of 10% or less of the population but that was a long time ago and the empire itself didn't even last 100 years.

One of the biggest false narratives we spread is that Sikhs saved Hinduism from extinction. It makes me feel embarrassed as a Sikh when we say dumb things like that, it makes us look like a bunch of illiterate fools.

I don't think the boastfulness is a result of Punjabi mentality. It is due to Sikhism, even though Sikhism says not to have an ego. Hindus have India where they are the majority and Muslims have Pakistan and Bangladesh, we just have one state in India where we are a slight majority. We are always boasting because we want approval from the majority community. That is the main reason. 

[Guest]

On 4/11/2018 at 7:27 PM, TejS said:

You're exactly right, we have these false narratives spread among the community of conquering Afghanistan, and defeating the Mughal Empire single handedly when none of this is true. And it seems like we're trying to make up for something, when the fact is that what our ancestors accomplished was more than enough given their population size.

The first step: Ban, Stop all those "kathavachaks", "gyanis" and so-called "dharmik" singers (who once every 5 years remember to release a religious song, while all the time they were singing about how horny they are after getting drunk and how the hip of a girl gives them heart-attacks), who say bull5hit like Guru Granth Sahib being in NASA, Obama having portrait of Guru Gobind Singh ji etc. What we need is Good Gyanis fluent in Gurbani and Sikh History, who will preach REAL Itihaas from REAL Sources, and not stuff they heard from their patron Baba or from missionary pages on Facebook.

 Sikhs under Banda Singh were a major reason for the downfall of the Mughal Empire (They almost took Delhi, and no one talks about it). From a band of a couple thousand jungle hermits-on horseback, to rulers of a powerful empire in Northern India, with one of the best armies in Asia- That was a remarkable achievement. The united front of the Misls was able to drive back Timur Khan's professional Afghan army, and thus saving the Indian subcontinent, from yet another bloody carnage accompanied with loot and rape

[Big_Tera]

On 08/04/2018 at 3:05 AM, TejS said:

Having watched the BBC report on alcohol being an issue in the UK Punjabi community, I came to a realization that Sikhs value Punjabiyat (Punjabi-ness) over their Hindu and Muslim counterparts and are for that reason suffering. Muslim Punjabi were willing to separate their state, their language and culture for their religion and did so. The Hindu Punjabis as well have distanced themselves from Punjabiyat, evidenced through their speaking of Hindi. Now Punjabiyat has its goods and bads, however as a whole, the culture is extremely destructive. And I think it was for a reason that Guru Nanak was born in a Punjabi community and not any other Indian community, as the culture needed saving, and Sikhi was just that. To be very honest, Punjabiyat and Sikhi are polar opposites. And unfortunately most "Sikhs" follow Punjabiyat over Sikhi. This is our fault.

The ethnic identity of Punjab is actually quite recent, having only emerged fully in the 10th century. It was essentially a mixture of Jats, Khatris, Rajputs, Tarkhans, Brahmins, Sindhis, and Dalits that formed a new identity on the basis of language, and now ethnic. Before this, Punjab was home to Vedic teachings and essentially was a small cog in the mega-Vedic machine which encompassed Sapta Sindhu (NW India + Pakistan + Eastern Afghanistan). It's only a few hundred years older than our Sikh identity, and unlike the Sikh identity it was never truly defined up until recently.

In fact, taking a look at the history of the Punjab region (when it was called Punjab and before that), there's not much to be proud of in fact. Yes, it was home to the oldest university of the world, Takshashila, a institution for Vedic teachings, however other than that, it was mostly defeat after defeat by invaders and cowardice until Sikhi. The first time after thousands of years of foreign rule, indigenous rule in Punjab was established only by Sikhs. 

What I'm trying to convey here is that as Sikhs, we need to learn from our fellow Muslim and Hindu counterparts and ease up on the Punjabi identity, and stress more importance on Sikhi. I'm not saying stop speaking Punjabi and whatnot, however get rid of the customs, which are mostly destructive, such as alcohol consumption.

Yes our lot focus to much on being punjabi. Like we own the identity. Its not like we were the original punjabis. 

But we do put the p into punjabi as we dominate. through our culrure of music, dance and heritage. 

I would rather be known as a punjabi then a indian.