"When all other methods fail, it is proper to hold the sword in hand" - Guru Gobind Singh Ji: A Response to those who Advocate Violence

[BhForce]

22 hours ago, S1ngh said:

Know the person and his deeds first before throwing all support.

"Giani" (actually "agiani" ) Kuldeep "Singh" (the one who dropped 3 banis from Amrit Sanchar) is a bemukh, loser, fool, and <banned word filter activated>. He was on that website of Ragi Darshan Singh's (which I won't link to), posting a list inane "questions" for the Singh Sahibs undermining faith in basic Sikh tenets, including Dasam Patshah's bani.

I was quite shocked when "Giani" Kuldeep "Singh" took the step of arranging an "Amrit Sanchar" without the 3 banis from the Dasam Granth Sahib. I don't remember if I posted specifically about the Virginia "Amrit Sanchar", but I have posted regarding documentary evidence for the 5 Amrit banis. 

22 hours ago, S1ngh said:

To some Sikhs, it might be okay to make mockery of the religion, bring sudden drastic anti-Gurmat change. You based your whole post on two events and showed that somehow they are the victims. To folks like me, they are the well known perpetrators who should face stiff punishments.

That said, for me it is not OK to make a mockery of the religion, or to bring drastic (or gradual) anti-Gurmat change. They are definitely perpetrators, and they will face punishments in hell (as detailed in Gurbani, posted by me many times previously).

As for punishment in this world, Gur-Itihas does not show that Guru Sahib had propagators of anti-Gurmat killed. For example, Pirth Chand set up his own parallel Guruship (necessarily denouncing the legitimacy of the Guruship of Guru Arjan Dev ji) and his own "Darbar Sahib". I would say that that definitely qualifies as anti-Gurmat. But Guru Sahib did not have him killed.

Instead, the Guru's Sikhs (Bhai Gurdas ji/Baba Buddha ji) preached against the heretics, and warned the Sangat, including via text (Vaars). Which is exactly what we should be doing, with words (among our friends/relatives), katha, speeches, lectures, symposiums, pamphlets, Youtube videos, Internet discussion boards, Facebook, etc.

I think it's a wonderful thing that Sikhsangat is generally considered an anti-jihadi / anti-radical Islam website. But one of the reasons that people detest radical Islam is stuff like the fact that if you become an apostate in Islam, the punishment is death. By contrast, in our divine religion, the punishment (in this world) is merely that you go on your own way, with Sikhs having nothing to do with you.

That's why the Prophet Mohammed had Asma bint Marwan, a female Arab poet, killed for ridiculing him. See here. And on the other hand Guru Har Rai Sahib excommunicated (not executed) Ram Rai.

I think it would be extremely bad for Americans to start thinking that Sikhs are nothing more than Muslims with kirpans, killing anybody that doesn't agree with them. It will be very difficult for us to live in Western countries if that false notion takes hold.

I believe I have credibility to speak on this issue because I am one of the most conservative posters on this site. With the greatest of respect for you and other posters on this site, I hope that we will all come together to vigorously denounce Sikhs heretics like "Giani" Kuldeep "Singh" of Virginia while at the same time educating people that a death penalty for apostasy is not a part of Gur-Itihas. Bhulchuk maaf.

[Akalifauj]

22 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

My post wasn't showing how they are the victims, it was that a non-violent act should not be met with violence. There are other ways we can combat this than go out and assassinate people for victimless crimes. 

 

Of course they should face a punishment, however it should not be physical, let alone death. If someone changes a Khalsa practice, such as the Khand Di Phaul, then they should try to justify their views as per Gurmat, and if they fail. they should apologize, however even if they dont, they should not be killed, an excommunication and boycott is more than enough. 

 

If you are going to rebut an argument, you should at least read the entire thing in context. 

 

I am fully aware of the perpetrators of these actions, and I still agree they should not be KILLED, and in the worse case excommunicated, do you have a problem with that? 

Gursikhs will do what Gurbani tells them.  This is why Gursikhs reading Gurbani and don't attain manmat from your post or @N30S1NGH.  Both of you can make up all the theories in your head and write them on this forum and others, but no Guraikh will pay attention.  The Gursikhs face is turned to the Guru and they don't fear worldly punishment by so called democratic governments.  Neither of you can stop the Gursikhs.  

Those who will not do anything and will sink in the deepest ocean will bow their heads to n30singh theories.  

I'm satisfied with telling Sikhs to read Gurbani and do what Gurbani says on when to use the sword. Gursikhs do not adhere to Gurbani wrapped in western logic.

[BhForce]

2 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Gursikhs will do what Gurbani tells them. 

Yeah, perhaps you could have bothered to post a bit of Gurbani on what Sikhs are supposed to do with bemukhs.

Gurbani tells Sikhs to boycott bemukhs.

It does not tell Sikhs to kill bemukhs.

[TheeTurbanator]

Did you not read a single thing I wrote? I literally justified my views using Gurbani and History. What I say literally can’t be Manmat because I use Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s literal words to back it up. 

You are indirectly advocating terrorism. You are creating parallels with ISIS and radical Muslims who want to kill people who they disagree with. 

People like you need to calm down, drink some lassi, put your Kirpans in their sheets, and just contemplate Gurbani before you lecture others on things you don’t understand. 

I challenge you to a debate to prove your points using Gurbani and the Gurus history, will you accept? Or run away like the other coward! 

[BhForce]

24 minutes ago, TheeTurbanator said:

People like you need to calm down, drink some lassi, put your Kirpans in their sheets, and just contemplate Gurbani before you lecture others on things you don’t understand. 

Although you can see from my posts in this thread that I agree with your main point, by posting this, I predict you will get into a shouting match with AkaliFauj and others, definitely not leading to you convincing him or others of the fact that Sikhi does not advocate countering apostasy with the death penalty.

[TheeTurbanator]

I have already provided more than enough evidence to support my arguement, and the fact that this user has the audacity to tell me that IM a Manmukh when I literally quoted the Guru twice and provided multiple real life examples of the Guru, just shows how intellectually deficient he is. 

Its obvious that proper intellectual arguments aren’t going to work, and you have to sometimes speak their language. 

I also would like to point out that their position isn’t advocating Death for Apostasy in Sikhi, it’s for death for the desecration of the traditions of the Khalsa Panth. I’m sure they wouldn’t care if people leave Sikhi, they just care when they attack the Panth. 

[BhForce]

2 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

I have already provided more than enough evidence to support my arguement,

No offense, but you didn't. You provided enough evidence, but not more than enough.

You provided an analysis of the chunkar pangti, plus analysis of issues surrounding targeted killings, including the backfiring of such attempts, almost all of which I agree with. The problem with this is, although I agreed with it, it's possible that others could disagree, and view it as just you spouting your opinions. You could have countered that by tying your analysis to concrete examples from Gur-Itihas.

But you provided zero examples from the history of the lifetime of the Gurus regarding the non-killing of Guru Sahib's opponents, that is Baba Sri Chand, Dasu, Datu, Pirthi Chand, Ram Rai, Suraj Mal, etc. That would be more than enough evidence, and could possibly have shut down your opponents in this thread before they got started.

[N30S1NGH]

13 hours ago, superdupersingh said:

LOL you are completely deluded. Please read some itihaas.

The corrupt masands met their end by being thrown into boiling oil as per guru ji's hukam. 

You are just attempting to spread your manmat, so please stop talking nonsense before you embarrass yourself further.  

I was anticipating this argument, glad you bought it up.. here is good research thread on this. Whilst it maintains authenticity of this important historical event- it explores and provides much needed context to it for example- monarch times vs current democratic times where church and state are seperate and currently there are laws to deal with this-

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/16506-masand-story-is-been-used-as-precedence-for-panthic-policiing/

[N30S1NGH]

7 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Gursikhs will do what Gurbani tells them.  This is why Gursikhs reading Gurbani and don't attain manmat from your post or @N30S1NGH.  Both of you can make up all the theories in your head and write them on this forum and others, but no Guraikh will pay attention.  The Gursikhs face is turned to the Guru and they don't fear worldly punishment by so called democratic governments.  Neither of you can stop the Gursikhs.  

Those who will not do anything and will sink in the deepest ocean will bow their heads to n30singh theories.  

I'm satisfied with telling Sikhs to read Gurbani and do what Gurbani says on when to use the sword. Gursikhs do not adhere to Gurbani wrapped in western logic.

Sunny Hundal (brother of late great gursikh bhai jagraj singh ji) is doing better job than you these days, he tacking cdn media with whole current cdn sikh extremism narrative and is united with all sikhs-one voice against current onslaught conservative media with goi back drop influence and whilst you prefer keep fighting with fellow sikhs. 

Come on dude, we can settle our old scores when we were both retired on park bench in bc while our grand kids play in the park, time to become one voice now.

GOI trying to crave out divided another sikh body in canada besides wso to push their chapli water down version of sikhi and khalsa, and lets not let them and play into their hands.

[N30S1NGH]

Another angle besides the obvious violence is never okay to settle non violent disputes:

Psychologically speaking

- fear based approach may work short term but hardly works in long run- history is witness take a look at the state of muslims and islam. Its good to learn from your mistakes but its even wiser to learn from other people mistakes.

-  Almost assassinated leader/preacher/journalist, gains more credibility /victim in masses /public opinion than academia rebuttal /massive sikhi parchar/ ignored/ troll one*, again history is witness whether is ujjal dosanjh (look at his influence in media),  tara singh hayer- journalist-before he was fuddu writer in des pardes when he was alive than he is revered matryr in journalist world , ranjit singh dhandrianwale before he was sant wanna be now after assignation attempt got huge following, and example op shared.

this is great thread by op and great article provided by op- https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnrampton/2015/04/09/10-tips-to-dealing-with-trolls/#52598ad454f4

- Even in elections world wide, no political opponent will use violence or force against political oppopent to sway public opnion as its counter intuitive, they will use other tactics- media, social media - recent huge news of shady manipulation by  cambridge analytica of tapping and exploiting deep underlining fears of swing voters.

So wake up from village mentality.