What was the initial reason for humans being caught in the cycle of reincarnation

[singh598]

When God created the sirgun form as written in Japji Sahib then humans were born and lost in maya they keep reincarnation 

[TejS]

On 3/11/2018 at 7:46 PM, MisterrSingh said:

I believe the opposite. Knowing human nature and the way our minds function, I think it's a good thing that we don't have specific recollections of our past deeds, in as much as we won't be tempted to behave cynically in order to "do good" if we were to know the specific details for determining the reasons for erasing those previous misdeeds, and I feel this is a deliberate act on the part of our Creator. In essence, we are currently acting without vested interests on a karmic level. Yes, on some instinctive level most people realise that goodness is preferable to bad, and we somehow feel that if we follow this rule even in the most crudest of forms, we will be closer to God than if our life erred towards the other, darker end of the spectrum.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is this: if we were somehow aware of everything from our previous existences -- and therefore aware of what exactly we needed to do in order to pay off those debts -- we wouldn't do good by battling with our conscience and weighing up our choices (which is the way we function currently), but instead all our goodness wouldn't be selfless and would instead be automated; it'd be driven by a desire to do good for the sake of progression, and not because it's something we truly feel to be the correct course of action as a decision and something's that's arrived upon organically through using our budhi. The Creator is absolutely spot-on with how much he's given us non-Brahmgyanis to work with. It's all part of the plan. It is very, very difficult, though.

I've thought about this and I agree to a certain extent and have agreed in the past, but if its genuineness that Waheguru wants from us, I'm sure Waheguru has the knowledge to know whether someone was genuine in their actions or not in the first place.

And secondly, why even tell us about then the first place, wouldn't we be more genuine without that knowledge?

[TejS]

On 4/23/2018 at 6:21 PM, singh598 said:

When God created the sirgun form as written in Japji Sahib then humans were born and lost in maya they keep reincarnation 

I realize that, but then why create us in the first place knowing this is what would eventually happen? 

[jkvlondon]

On 4/23/2018 at 7:42 PM, monatosingh said:

Silly question, what would happen if the world ends? There would be nothing left to reincarnate since nothing will give birth?

this is not the only world there are infinite planets/realms just as there unimaginable numbers of creatures praising Akal Purakh

[Guest]

Interesting question . 

As gurbani says "Main aaya dooro chalke , main takki tau sarnaai jiyo" . Here "dooro chalke" means not physical distance but means since many lifetimes I am wandering and only guru can give us sharan and save us.

It's all god's play. As Guru Nanak dev ji says 

"Ikna hukamni bakshees , Ik hukame sada bhavayae" (Some are saved by god's hukam, some wander forever) .

Everything you see and you can't see is god's projection . Like a spider that creates its web from itself , then dwells in it and when it so desires consumes that same web , only to repeat the cycle.

If you don't mind I would also like to quote some sanatani scriptures here because the ideas therein are a lil bizzare but interesting :

In the beginning, this universe was verily the self in the form of a person. He pondered and beheld nothing but himself. He first said, ‘I am he’. Therefore he got the name ‘I’. Hence even now when any one is accosted, he first says, ‘It is I’, and then tells the other name that he has. Because he was the first (among the aspirants to the status of Prajapati), and (before) this whole group consumed all evils, therefore he is called Purusa. He who knows thus verily consumes him who wishes to be (Prajapati) in advance of him.

Brhadaranyaka Upanishad I.4.1 (part of Yajur Ved)

 

He was frightened. Therefore one is (still) frightened when one is alone. He reflected, ‘Since there is nothing besides myself, whhat am I afraid of?’ From that alone his fear departed, for what should he be afraid of? Fear comes from only a second entity.

Brhadaranyaka Upanishad I.4.2 (part of Yajur Ved)

 

Verily he did not feel happy. Therefore one (still) does not feel happy when alone. He desired a mate. He became of the size of a man and wife embracing each other. He divided this very body into two. From thart husband and wife came into being. ‘Therefore this body (of a man) is one-half of himself, like half of a two-celled seed’, so said Yajnavalkya. Hence this void is verily filled by the wife. He united with her. From that men were born.

Brhadaranyaka Upanishad I.4.3 (part of Yajur Ved)

 

What is Prajapati ? It is one of the names that vedas refer to Akaal Purakh. Praja (subjects) + Pati (husband/lord) : "The lord / king of subjects(world)"

 

[TejS]

1 hour ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

 

Verily he did not feel happy. Therefore one (still) does not feel happy when alone. He desired a mate. He became of the size of a man and wife embracing each other. He divided this very body into two. From thart husband and wife came into being. ‘Therefore this body (of a man) is one-half of himself, like half of a two-celled seed’, so said Yajnavalkya. Hence this void is verily filled by the wife. He united with her. From that men were born.

Brhadaranyaka Upanishad I.4.3 (part of Yajur Ved)

 

Thanks for your input. Another question I have concerning this explanation is that if the Creator itself was not happy as per the Brhadarnyaka Upanishad, then the Creator itself was not santokh, therefore not that far removed from us fallible humans. And if the Creator is fallible as human, then the Creator is not worthy of worship, right? So, I don't think this line of thought proposed by the Upanishad is accurate, as it portrays God in a fallible manner.

 

[MisterrSingh]

14 hours ago, TejS said:

I've thought about this and I agree to a certain extent and have agreed in the past, but if its genuineness that Waheguru wants from us, I'm sure Waheguru has the knowledge to know whether someone was genuine in their actions or not in the first place.

And secondly, why even tell us about then the first place, wouldn't we be more genuine without that knowledge?

My opinions have shifted slightly from my original take on the situation. I'm trying to get my head around these particular concepts at the moment, lol, in as much as attempting to relate these philosophies to my personal experiences. My tentative take on this subject is whatever happens, somehow we're always on the back-foot. The fact that there are these clearly delineated "rules" for something so wondrous and immeasurable, it doesn't ring true with me. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, TejS said:

Thanks for your input. Another question I have concerning this explanation is that if the Creator itself was not happy as per the Brhadarnyaka Upanishad, then the Creator itself was not santokh, therefore not that far removed from us fallible humans. And if the Creator is fallible as human, then the Creator is not worthy of worship, right? So, I don't think this line of thought proposed by the Upanishad is accurate, as it portrays God in a fallible manner.

 

Yup true. 

How can a divine being who's the fulfiller of everyone's wishes have a wish for himself ?

Hmmm.. tough one to answer. But you see multiplying and diversifying is wish of every consciousness, be it a seed or a human. Even a tiny seed sown in soil wishes to become a huge tree several thousands of times its size. Even a person wants to multiply in finances, family , other areas of life. No one wants to cause loss to themselves. It is because the original wish of the original consciousness (god) was the same i believe. "May I multiply" 

[jkvlondon]

2 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Yup true. 

How can a divine being who's the fulfiller of everyone's wishes have a wish for himself ?

Hmmm.. tough one to answer. But you see multiplying and diversifying is wish of every consciousness, be it a seed or a human. Even a tiny seed sown in soil wishes to become a huge tree several thousands of times its size. Even a person wants to multiply in finances, family , other areas of life. No one wants to cause loss to themselves. It is because the original wish of the original consciousness (god) was the same i believe. "May I multiply" 

why are we even talking like this is human , for us Akal Purakh is the energetic thread weaving reality...observing, experiencing , interacting with itself ...we are just phurne

[harsharan000]

What was the initial reason for humans being caught in the cycle of reincarnation?

From our present human condition, it is quite difficult to understand or explain the answer to this question, not because there is no answer, but because we are very much limited, howsoever intelectual and wise we may think about ourselves.

We may answer and understand man made  developements, achievements, but when it comes to the Limitless, we are tiny as ants in comparison to the Himalayas.

So in order to understand  Him, or His creation properly, we have to grow at His level consciousness.  

We are low, weak and narrow minded, while He is Ooch Apaar and Beant.

One thing is for sure, we are away from Him, so all our efforts, energies, priorities, should  be directed towards Him, for life is short and uncertain.   

So let us not waste our time in things beyond our reach now, for when the gods, devtays, incarnations, prophets can not understand Him, who are we then as humans to understand His ways.                                                                                                                                                       

Gurbani says, Jin Har japeeya, se Har hoeeya, this is the direct and shortest path  to become one with Him at His level.

Though I also believe, once we become with Him, we would hardly have still that question or any other.

Some may ask why?

Simply because, then we would be one Him without any difference, thus seeing everything  through His drishtee, and as we may all know, He is all perfection, as Sacha Sahib.

Stay blessed

Sat Sree Akal.