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TheeTurbanator

Understanding the deeper meaning behind "Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false."

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But then if there is no free will, what’s the point of Dharam? I know that’s the “only Waheguru knows” question, but seriously. 

Also, in response to “ape beej ape  khao” line, you said that:

 

if you do the actions with doership*/indentity/ego then cycle of karma ensues then you will get fruit based on those actions.”

but using that logic, YOU are still DOING something, doesn’t that imply free will? Why would Gurbani constantly tell us to jaap Naam, etc if in the end everything is done by the one? Whats the point? Why would the One fool parts of himself into thinking they are separate? 

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13 minutes ago, TheeTurbanator said:

but using that logic, YOU are still DOING something, doesn’t that imply free will?

Not in a true sense because backdrop you doing" free will IS also per-determined, look at the 3 minute science video and one before.

Quote

Why would Gurbani constantly tell us to jaap Naam, etc if in the end everything is done by the one? Whats the point? Why would the One fool parts of himself into thinking they are separate? 

To get us out of illusion there is separate-ego out there, its maharaj leela-play only maharaj truly knows the play, one can be with current-divine force by living in present moment-eternally NOW will-play and understand it after realizing their real self.

Edited by N30S1NGH

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Vedas only speak of the visible form: ang  154

gauVI mhlw 1 ]

gourree mehalaa 1 ||

Gauree, First Mehla:

 

jnim mrY qRY gux ihqkwru ]

janam marai thrai gun hithakaar ||

One who loves the three qualities is subject to birth and death.

 

cwry byd kQih Awkwru ]

chaarae baedh kathhehi aakaar ||

The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms.

 

qIin AvsQw khih viKAwnu ]

theen avasathhaa kehehi vakhiaan ||

They describe and explain the three states of mind,

 

qurIAwvsQw siqgur qy hir jwnu ]1]

thureeaavasathhaa sathigur thae har jaan ||1||

but the fourth state, union with the Lord, is known only through the True Guru. ||1||

The key word in this pauri is qurIAwvsQw . It means to be spiritually sound and  have harmony, which leads to liberation.  This pauri tells us only Gurbani holds spirituality and absolute truth.  Absolute truth cannot be defined without the fourth state.  The fourth state is Absolute reality.  Gurbani in the pauri says the Vedas does not have this fourth state.  The word Absolute reality/truth and spirituality is being dumb down by the less read and versed in Gurbani.  To the deaf person the sound of a flute will sound uplifting and “spiritual”.  Hardly anyone progresses past the flute.   

 

Here is another pauri stating the Vedas do not know the absolute truth: ang 148

 

pauVI ]

pourree ||

Pauree:

 

kyqy khih vKwx kih kih jwvxw ]

kaethae kehehi vakhaan kehi kehi jaavanaa ||

Some speak and expound, and while speaking and lecturing, they pass away.

 

vyd khih viKAwx AMqu n pwvxw ]

vaedh kehehi vakhiaan a(n)th n paavanaa ||

The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.

 

Gurbani saying the Vedas do not know God’s limit; they do not know God.  Very simply put the Vedas cannot direct a person to what they don’t know of.  The foolish argument of no one knows God’s limit by mischievous people does not hold water even for a second.  Gurbani says the Guru (Gurbani) are perfect and same as God: ang 1204

cwir ibnwsI Ktih ibnwsI ieik swD bcn inhclwDw ]2]
chaar binaasee khattehi binaasee eik saadhh bachan nihachalaadhhaa ||2||
The four Vedas shall pass away, and the six Shaastras shall pass away. Only the Word of the Holy Saint is eternal. ||2||

Listen to this next line carefully on the question of whether God can be found through the Vedas or any other way like Bible, Gita, Koran, etc

jip mn rwm nwmu ArDWBw ]

jap man raam naam aradhhaa(n)bhaa ||

O mind, meditate and worship the Lord's Name.

 

aupjMip aupwie n pweIAY kqhU guir pUrY hir pRBu lwBw ]1] rhwau ]

oupaja(n)p oupaae n paaeeai kathehoo gur poorai har prabh laabhaa ||1|| rehaao ||

God is never found, even by making all sorts of new efforts. The Lord God is obtained only through the Perfect Guru. ||1||Pause||

Self explanatory.   This really speaks to what a sham some are running by saying the Vedas has some sort of absolute truth in them, which equates to Gurbani.  Complete rubbish with no facts to support such deception.

Additionally, Gurbani addresses the topic of what his eternal.  Again Gurbani says the word of Guru Sahib is eternal and the Vedas are bound by time: ang 237

vnu AsQwnu jo kbhu n trY ]

kavan asathhaan jo kabahu n ttarai ||

What is that place which never perishes?

 

kvnu sbdu ijqu durmiq hrY ]1] rhwau ]

kavan sabadh jith dhuramath harai ||1|| rehaao ||

What is that Word by which the dirt of the mind is removed? ||1||Pause||

 

ieMdR purI mih srpr mrxw ]

ei(n)dhr puree mehi sarapar maranaa ||

In the Realm of Indra, death is sure and certain.

 

bRhm purI inhclu nhI rhxw ]

breham puree nihachal nehee rehanaa ||

The Realm of Brahma shall not remain permanent.

 

isv purI kw hoiegw kwlw ]

siv puree kaa hoeigaa kaalaa ||

The Realm of Shiva shall also perish.

 

qRY gux mwieAw ibnis ibqwlw ]2]

thrai gun maaeiaa binas bithaalaa ||2||

The three dispositions, Maya and the demons shall vanish. ||2||

 

igir qr Drix ggn Aru qwry ]

gir thar dhharan gagan ar thaarae ||

The mountains, the trees, the earth, the sky and the stars;

 

riv sis pvxu pwvku nIrwry ]

rav sas pavan paavak neeraarae ||

the sun, the moon, the wind, water and fire;

 

idnsu rYix brq Aru Bydw ]

dhinas rain barath ar bhaedhaa ||

day and night, fasting days and their determination;

 

swsq isMimRiq ibnsihgy bydw ]3]

saasath si(n)mrith binasehigae baedhaa ||3||

the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas shall pass away. ||3||

 

qIrQ dyv dyhurw poQI ]

theerathh dhaev dhaehuraa pothhee ||

The sacred shrines of pilgrimage, gods, temples and holy books;

 

mwlw iqlku soc pwk hoqI ]

maalaa thilak soch paak hothee ||

rosaries, ceremonial tilak marks on the forehead, meditative people, the pure, and the performers of burnt offerings;

 

DoqI fMfauiq prswdn Bogw ]

dhhothee dda(n)ddouth parasaadhan bhogaa ||

wearing loin cloths, bowing in reverence and the enjoyment of sacred foods

 

gvnu krYgo sglo logw ]4]

gavan karaigo sagalo logaa ||4||

- all these, and all people, shall pass away. ||4||

 

jwiq vrn qurk Aru ihMdU ]

jaath varan thurak ar hi(n)dhoo ||

Social classes, races, Muslims and Hindus;

 

psu pMKI Aink join ijMdU ]

pas pa(n)khee anik jon ji(n)dhoo ||

beasts, birds and the many varieties of beings and creatures;

 

sgl pwswru dIsY pwswrw ]

sagal paasaar dheesai paasaaraa ||

the entire world and the visible universe

 

ibnis jwiego sgl Awkwrw ]5]

binas jaaeigo sagal aakaaraa ||5||

- all forms of existence shall pass away. ||5||

 

shj isPiq Bgiq qqu igAwnw ]

sehaj sifath bhagath thath giaanaa ||

Through the Praises of the Lord, devotional worship, spiritual wisdom and the essence of reality,

 

sdw Anµdu inhclu scu Qwnw ]

sadhaa ana(n)dh nihachal sach thhaanaa ||

eternal bliss and the imperishable true place are obtained.

 

qhw sMgiq swD gux rsY ]

thehaa sa(n)gath saadhh gun rasai ||

There, in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, the Lord's Glorious Praises are sung with love.

 

AnBau ngru qhw sd vsY ]6]

anabho nagar thehaa sadh vasai ||6||

There, in the city of fearlessness, He dwells forever. ||6||

 

qh Bau Brmw sogu n icMqw ]

theh bho bharamaa sog n chi(n)thaa ||

There is no fear, doubt, suffering or anxiety there;

 

Awvxu jwvxu imrqu n hoqw ]

aavan jaavan mirath n hothaa ||

there is no coming or going, and no death there.

 

qh sdw Anµd Anhq AwKwry ]

theh sadhaa ana(n)dh anehath aakhaarae ||

There is eternal bliss, and the unstruck celestial music there.

 

Bgq vsih kIrqn AwDwry ]7]

bhagath vasehi keerathan aadhhaarae ||7||

The devotees dwell there, with the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises as their support. ||7||

 

pwrbRhm kw AMqu n pwru ]

paarabreham kaa a(n)th n paar ||

There is no end or limitation to the Supreme Lord God.

 

kauxu krY qw kw bIcwru ]

koun karai thaa kaa beechaar ||

Who can embrace His contemplation?

 

khu nwnk ijsu ikrpw krY ]

kahu naanak jis kirapaa karai ||

Says Nanak, when the Lord showers His Mercy,

 

inhcl Qwnu swDsMig qrY ]8]4]

nihachal thhaan saadhhasa(n)g tharai ||8||4||

the imperishable home is obtained; in the Saadh Sangat, you shall be saved. ||8||4||

 

The kirtan of Vaheguru is only your support.  How wonderful, how clear the instructions are given to the true seekers of this world.  Everywhere else all there is fear, anxiety and death, which includes in the Vedas.  Whoever follows the Vedas will face the same ultimate cold, support less, fall to death as it does not have the capacity to lead anyone to the absolute truth.

Does the Vedas know the glory and greatness of the Saints: ang 272

swD kI mihmw byd n jwnih ]

saadhh kee mehimaa baedh n jaanehi ||

The glory of the Holy people is not known to the Vedas.

 

jyqw sunih qyqw biKAwnih ]

jaethaa sunehi thaethaa bakhiaanehi ||

They can describe only what they have heard.

 

swD kI aupmw iqhu gux qy dUir ]

saadhh kee oupamaa thihu gun thae dhoor ||

The greatness of the Holy people is beyond the three qualities.

 

Again Gurbani says the Vedas only speak of what will pass away (three qualities, visible form).  Let’s keep going here.  No stopping now, let Gurbani speak for what the Vedas are.

Listen to how Bhagat Kabir ji describes how the simritee and Vedas are actually the poison that holds the people to bondage to the world: ang 329

 

gauVI kbIr jI ]

gourree kabeer jee ||

Gauree, Kabeer Jee:

 

byd kI puqRI isMimRiq BweI ]

baedh kee puthree si(n)mrith bhaaee ||

The Simritee is the daughter of the Vedas, O Siblings of Destiny.

 

sWkl jyvrI lY hY AweI ]1]

saa(n)kal jae//ee lai hai aaee ||1||

She has brought a chain and a rope. ||1||

 

Awpn ngru Awp qy bwiDAw ]

aapan nagar aap thae baadhhiaa ||

She has imprisoned the people in her own city.

 

moh kY PwiD kwl sru sWiDAw ]1] rhwau ]

moh kai faadhh kaal sar saa(n)dhhiaa ||1|| rehaao ||

She has tightened the noose of emotional attachment and shot the arrow of death. ||1||Pause||

 

ktI n ktY qUit nh jweI ]

kattee n kattai thoott neh jaaee ||

By cutting, she cannot be cut, and she cannot be broken.

 

sw swpin hoie jg kau KweI ]2]

saa saapan hoe jag ko khaaee ||2||

She has become a serpent, and she is eating the world. ||2||

 

hm dyKq ijin sBu jgu lUitAw ]

ham dhaekhath jin sabh jag loottiaa ||

Before my very eyes, she has plundered the entire world.

 

khu kbIr mY rwm kih CUitAw ]3]30]

kahu kabeer mai raam kehi shhoottiaa ||3||30||

Says Kabeer, chanting the Lord's Name, I have escaped her. ||3||30||

 

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Great shabad, i came across with this shabad in the article i read few years ago http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart87.htm

Puratan indic text tat nichor of vedas-and commentary- Vedant, whole range of upanishads all mention turiya also chidda akash by grace of sanjha eternal satguru of all/all prevading all in one, one in all - Sat Primordial/Eternal) Guru(Consciousness).

Turiya is not owned by anyone - its state of being - its substratum reality of all.

Edited by N30S1NGH

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OM has turiya too just do simple image search on google.

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On 04/03/2018 at 2:32 AM, TheeTurbanator said:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! 

Often times when I or many other Sikhs are debating people of other faiths, I allways hear some Sikhs bring up the line:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ - Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 1350

Which is translated to mean: "Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false."

Link to full shabad: https://www.searchgurbani.com/guru-granth-sahib/ang-by-ang


I have asked many people about the true meaning behind this tuk, and most people would agree that its correctly translated, however there are some who would disagree, and translate it in a way that is directly the opposite of what the English translation means. Let me give you an example:

 

Literal meaning breakdown


ਬੇਦ = Literally meaning "Ved" referring to the Vedas from Sanatana Dharma (often called "Hinduism") 

ਕਤੇਬ = Literally meaning "books", however in the context of Bhagat Kabeer it means the three major abrehamic books: bible, quran, torah. 

ਕਹਹੁ = Literally meaning "Say"

ਮਤ = Now this is the part that is often disputed. How one interprets this one word can change the entire shabads meaning, and even affect Sikhi as a whole. Often times people will say "mat" means "do not", however the same word is also used with different meanings. An example is the word "Gurmat", this word doesn't mean "Guru Dont". 

ਝੂਠੇ = Literally meaning "false" or "untrue" 

 

Differences in Opinion 

 

The AKJ founder Randhir Singh translated this tuk to mean that Bhagat Kabeer (who is technically not a Muslim but a Sikh as per Gurbani) is saying that this tuk is saying that the ved and abrehamic books are false, however most of the English translations that Sikhs read, seem to suggest the exact opposite.

I am personalty not AKJ or any other jatha, and I disagree with some stuff Bhai Randir Singh says, however on this specific issue, I  lean towards "ਮਤ" not meaning "do not" in this context. The reason for this is becuase if you take the entire shabad, as well as the life of Bhagat Kabeer, its obvious that hes criticizing Islamic practices, and fundamental ideas of the abrehamic regions, and the eastern dharmas under the blanket of Sanatana Dharma. 

People often bring up the counter argument that "all relgions/dharmas have some truth in them", and this is generally true, and varies on specific relgion or dharma, however in general, the reason Sikhi needed to be revitalized in the 4th age (Kal Yug "the dark age") was becuase all other religions and dharms had failed (as stated in Dasam Granth which is generally believed to be written by the Guru in his 10th temporal form). Bani also criticizes the vedas on other shabads, correct me if im wrong, but at one point it literally says that its make belief, so then why would the Guru contradict itself? 

 

Here is an example of a counterargument against the English translation of "Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false."
 

Link to counterargument: http://www.searchsikhism.com/islam-in-gurbani

My questions for Sikh who are educated in Gurbani: 

  • What do you guys think of this?
  • Do you think the English translation of Gurbani was deliberately changed to not offend others? 
  • If so, what is the correct way to interpret this tuk? 

 

 

I think it means what it says on the tin.. 

Don't be speaking bad about Vedas, Koran sharif etc 

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In the chapter Dakhni Oangkaar its written Oangkaar Bedh Nirmey.

In another shabad it's written Chaar Veda Brahmeh Ko Deyeh

From the above quote's and many others we can see that the Vedas came from God himself.  Therefore why would Gurbani criticize the work of God himself.

Also if you look throughout the lives of all the ten Guru's you see that never did they criticize other religions.  Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj sent 5 Singh's to Haridwar to study Hinduism thus creating the Nirmala Sect.  Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to all primary Islamic institutions they showed supremacy of Gurmat.

In recent times there are many sceptics who are embedded within the Sikh community, online as well as in religions institutions.  There purpose is only to TRY to fool people.  

This is a non existent debate, all puratan granths such as Faridkot Teeka, Sant Amir Singh Teeka and Baba Gurbachan Singh MP3 CDS point against the OP

Edited by singh598
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20 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

The above katha does not say vedas are satguru or take a person to satguru.  Gurbani says the vedas don't know the fourth state and Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji does wonderful katha on this.  

Learning to accept Gurbani for some has been a on going struggle because they don't let go of their own beliefs.  

In the past this poster has presented Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji katha in audio form where the audio was cut to give a misrepresentation of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji katha.  So be very very careful when reading this poster's post.  The person who cut the audio is know on this site by poster @kam1825.  I addressed both of them and they did not even want to acknowledge there wrong doing and stuck to their manmat ways. 

I never said vedas were satguru, read the analysis if vedas were so worthless, sant ji wouldn't have done comparison- mahavaks from vedas comparison with gurbani mahavaks comparison to show Gurbani has more mahavaks than vedas which has only four. Nevertheless, if sikhs abides in our countless gurbani mahavaks and hindus abides in any of four mahavaks it provides union between atma and paratma by kirpa of shared Sat Guru of all - All pervading eternal consciousness/ awareness.

Also based on those mahavaks and 4000 gyan surti shaloks- expansive commentary -exegesis  108 upanishads were written which talks about turiya avastha.

Sikhs or any group claiming ownership of turiya is like claiming ownership of consciousness which is in everyone, air, water, fire, earth and sky. You should get rid of your manmat ways.

 

Edited by N30S1NGH

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On 3/7/2018 at 10:47 PM, Akalifauj said:

Vedas only speak of the visible form: ang  154

gauVI mhlw 1 ]

gourree mehalaa 1 ||

Gauree, First Mehla:

 

jnim mrY qRY gux ihqkwru ]

Where are you copy-pasting this from? It looks like jumbled English letters: 

jumbledletters.jpg

The reason for this is you are using a site in which the Gurmukhi characters are encoded as letters of the Latin alphabet (A-Z), but that requires a specific font, which is problematic. Every modern Gurbani site (like searchgurbani or srigranth) uses something called "Unicode" instead, which doesn't have this problem. I went to the trouble of pasting from such a site:

 

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥

ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੈ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਹਿਤਕਾਰੁ ॥

ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਕਥਹਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥

ਤੀਨਿ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਨੁ ॥

ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧॥

p154

 

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

ਕੇਤੇ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਾਣ ਕਹਿ ਕਹਿ ਜਾਵਣਾ ॥

ਵੇਦ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥

p148

 

ਸਾਰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

ਮਾਈ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਸਾਧਾ ॥

ਬਚਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੋ ਪੂਰੈ ਕਹਿਓ ਮੈ ਛੀਕਿ ਗਾਂਠਰੀ ਬਾਧਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਨਿਸਿ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਨਖਿਅਤ੍ਰ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਰਵਿ ਸਸੀਅਰ ਬੇਨਾਧਾ ॥

ਗਿਰਿ ਬਸੁਧਾ ਜਲ ਪਵਨ ਜਾਇਗੋ ਇਕਿ ਸਾਧ ਬਚਨ ਅਟਲਾਧਾ ॥੧॥

ਅੰਡ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਜੇਰ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਸੇਤ ਬਿਨਾਧਾ ॥

ਚਾਰਿ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਖਟਹਿ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਇਕਿ ਸਾਧ ਬਚਨ ਨਿਹਚਲਾਧਾ ॥੨॥

ਰਾਜ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਤਾਮ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਸਾਤਕੁ ਭੀ ਬੇਨਾਧਾ ॥

ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਮਾਨ ਹੈ ਸਗਲ ਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਇਕਿ ਸਾਧ ਬਚਨ ਆਗਾਧਾ ॥੩॥

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਆਪੇ ਸਭੁ ਆਪਨ ਖੇਲੁ ਦਿਖਾਧਾ ॥

ਪਾਇਓ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਕਹੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਲਾਧਾ ॥੪॥੬॥

p1204

 

ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥

ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਓ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਮ ਮੁਏ ਜੀਵੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿਭਾ ॥

ਧਨੁ ਧੰਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਡੁਬਦੇ ਬਾਹ ਦੇਇ ਕਢਿਭਾ ॥੧॥

ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਰਧਾਂਭਾ ॥

ਉਪਜੰਪਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਕਤਹੂ ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਲਾਭਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਸੁ ਰਾਮ ਰਸਾਇਣੁ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਆ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਸਭਾ ॥

ਲੋਹ ਮਨੂਰ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਉਰ ਧਾਰਿਓ ਗੁਰਿ ਹਰਿਭਾ ॥੨॥

ਹਉਮੈ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਨਿਤ ਲੋਭਿ ਲੁਭਾਨੇ ਪੁਤ ਕਲਤ ਮੋਹਿ ਲੁਭਿਭਾ ॥

ਤਿਨ ਪਗ ਸੰਤ ਨ ਸੇਵੇ ਕਬਹੂ ਤੇ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਭੂੰਭਰ ਭਰਭਾ ॥੩॥

ਤੁਮਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਾਨਹੁ ਹਮ ਪਰੇ ਹਾਰਿ ਤੁਮ ਸਰਨਭਾ ॥

ਜਿਉ ਜਾਨਹੁ ਤਿਉ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਦਾਸੁ ਤੁਮਨਭਾ ॥੪॥੬॥ ਛਕਾ ੧ ॥

p1337

 

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਗਰਭ ਵਾਸ ਤੇ ਟਰਿਆ ॥

ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਕੁਟੰਬ ਸੰਗਿ ਜੁਰਿਆ ॥

ਭੋਜਨੁ ਅਨਿਕ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਬਹੁ ਕਪਰੇ ॥

ਸਰਪਰ ਗਵਨੁ ਕਰਹਿਗੇ ਬਪੁਰੇ ॥੧॥

ਕਵਨੁ ਅਸਥਾਨੁ ਜੋ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਟਰੈ ॥

ਕਵਨੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਹਰੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪੁਰੀ ਮਹਿ ਸਰਪਰ ਮਰਣਾ ॥

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੁਰੀ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਰਹਣਾ ॥

ਸਿਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਕਾ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਾਲਾ ॥

ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਬਿਤਾਲਾ ॥੨॥

ਗਿਰਿ ਤਰ ਧਰਣਿ ਗਗਨ ਅਰੁ ਤਾਰੇ ॥

ਰਵਿ ਸਸਿ ਪਵਣੁ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਨੀਰਾਰੇ ॥

ਦਿਨਸੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਬਰਤ ਅਰੁ ਭੇਦਾ ॥

ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬਿਨਸਹਿਗੇ ਬੇਦਾ ॥੩॥

ਤੀਰਥ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਪੋਥੀ ॥

ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਸੋਚ ਪਾਕ ਹੋਤੀ ॥

ਧੋਤੀ ਡੰਡਉਤਿ ਪਰਸਾਦਨ ਭੋਗਾ ॥

ਗਵਨੁ ਕਰੈਗੋ ਸਗਲੋ ਲੋਗਾ ॥੪॥

ਜਾਤਿ ਵਰਨ ਤੁਰਕ ਅਰੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥

ਪਸੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਅਨਿਕ ਜੋਨਿ ਜਿੰਦੂ ॥

ਸਗਲ ਪਾਸਾਰੁ ਦੀਸੈ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥

ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇਗੋ ਸਗਲ ਆਕਾਰਾ ॥੫॥

ਸਹਜ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਤਤੁ ਗਿਆਨਾ ॥

ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਸਚੁ ਥਾਨਾ ॥

ਤਹਾ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਾਧ ਗੁਣ ਰਸੈ ॥

ਅਨਭਉ ਨਗਰੁ ਤਹਾ ਸਦ ਵਸੈ ॥੬॥

ਤਹ ਭਉ ਭਰਮਾ ਸੋਗੁ ਨ ਚਿੰਤਾ ॥

ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਵਣੁ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਹੋਤਾ ॥

ਤਹ ਸਦਾ ਅਨੰਦ ਅਨਹਤ ਆਖਾਰੇ ॥

ਭਗਤ ਵਸਹਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਆਧਾਰੇ ॥੭॥

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰੁ ॥

ਕਉਣੁ ਕਰੈ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੈ ॥

ਨਿਹਚਲ ਥਾਨੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਤਰੈ ॥੮॥੪॥

p237

 

ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਬੇਦ ਨ ਜਾਨਹਿ ॥

ਜੇਤਾ ਸੁਨਹਿ ਤੇਤਾ ਬਖਿਆਨਹਿ ॥

ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਉਪਮਾ ਤਿਹੁ ਗੁਣ ਤੇ ਦੂਰਿ ॥

ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਉਪਮਾ ਰਹੀ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥

p272

 

ਗਉੜੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ॥

ਬੇਦ ਕੀ ਪੁਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਭਾਈ ॥

ਸਾਂਕਲ ਜੇਵਰੀ ਲੈ ਹੈ ਆਈ ॥੧॥

ਆਪਨ ਨਗਰੁ ਆਪ ਤੇ ਬਾਧਿਆ ॥

ਮੋਹ ਕੈ ਫਾਧਿ ਕਾਲ ਸਰੁ ਸਾਂਧਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਕਟੀ ਨ ਕਟੈ ਤੂਟਿ ਨਹ ਜਾਈ ॥

ਸਾ ਸਾਪਨਿ ਹੋਇ ਜਗ ਕਉ ਖਾਈ ॥੨॥

ਹਮ ਦੇਖਤ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਲੂਟਿਆ ॥

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਿ ਛੂਟਿਆ ॥੩॥੩੦॥

p329

Edited by BhForce
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13 hours ago, singh598 said:

From the above quote's and many others we can see that the Vedas came from God himself.

OK.

13 hours ago, singh598 said:

Therefore why would Gurbani criticize the work of God himself.

What? Are you saying that Gurbani doesn't criticize the Vedas? It manifestly does do just that.

Didn't you read the big post above of criticism? Also see here. That doesn't count as criticism in your book?

Or if you think that saying the Vedas don't have full knowledge of spiritual matters is criticism, then, OK, it's not criticism.

Sorry to say, brother, but your approach is somewhat simplistic. Granted the Vedas were created within the Hukum of God, but that doesn't mean that they are 100% correct or worthy of being followed.

Aurangzeb was created in God's Hukum, then why did God (in the form of the 8th, 9th, and 10th Gurus) oppose him? Hitler was created in God's Hukum.

13 hours ago, singh598 said:

Also if you look throughout the lives of all the ten Guru's you see that never did they criticize other religions.

Quite to the contrary. That's basically all they did. They criticized "Hinduism" and Islam. Have you read Gurbani? Through that criticism arises Sikhi.

What do you call Guru Nanak ji refusing to wear the janeu, and then going on to criticize it in Gurbani (Asa di Vaar)? What do you call sleeping with your feet towards the Kaaba? What do you call terming the movements of nature as the real Aarti? What do you call Guru Amar Daas ji taking affirmative steps to destroy Varan Ashram Dharam (institutionalized caste system). The Brahmins complained to the Emperor, why would they do that if Guru ji wasn't criticizing their religion? What do you call Guru Gobind Singh ji refusing to create a separate bata of Amrit for "high" castes, like the hill rajas wanted?

13 hours ago, singh598 said:

Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj sent 5 Singh's to Haridwar to study Hinduism thus creating the Nirmala Sect.

Studying something is different from accepting it. Don't slander the Nirmalas by saying they preach Hinduism. They went to study Sanskrit.

13 hours ago, singh598 said:

 Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to all primary Islamic institutions they showed supremacy of Gurmat.

Yeah, exactly.

13 hours ago, singh598 said:

In recent times there are many sceptics who are embedded within the Sikh community, online as well as in religions institutions.

Bro, for our purposes, a skeptic is one who doesn't believe in God or Guru Sahib. Skepticism of the Vedas is not bad. Skepticism of the Vedas is written in Gurbani.

Edited by BhForce
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Sensei always says "never speak poorly of another martial art or martial artist"

Edit: Totally a struggle, especially when everyone else is talkin sh!*

If it's become a martial art, there is, or was, something to it. Definitely it hurts to get hit in the face by anybody, let alone someone trained. And for students practicing whatever art hopefully they learn some good things. 

That being said we practice the art we do for very good reason, the way we see it, it's THE truly cohesive, evolutionary art, gifted by the One, the only one that leads in the direction we want to go. 

That isn't to say other arts are false, but we definitely see and discuss their blind spots, pitfalls and short comings respectfully in private. We'd be fools to dismiss them, and those that train in them entirely though, and we'd be in poor form acting all pompous, and disrespectful all the time .

Yes Sikhi is pure TRUTH, THE way, but maybe we should respect other faiths, and not be smug pompous gits about it?

And respect the truth in them, partial as it may be, off base in however way. 

Edited by GurjantGnostic

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5 hours ago, BhForce said:

Sorry to say, brother, but your approach is somewhat simplistic. Granted the Vedas were created within the Hukum of God, but that doesn't mean that they are 100% correct or worthy of being followed.

Can you please provide a top ten 

100%=gurbani then what comes second Koran or Vedas? 

5 hours ago, BhForce said:

Hinduism" and Islam. Have you read Gurbani? Through that criticism arises Sikhi.

I believe the criticism has to do with how hollow people's beliefs are and missing the point 

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On 08/03/2018 at 5:44 AM, N30S1NGH said:

I never said vedas were satguru, read the analysis if vedas were so worthless, sant ji wouldn't have done comparison- mahavaks from vedas comparison with gurbani mahavaks comparison to show Gurbani has more mahavaks than vedas which has only four. Nevertheless, if sikhs abides in our countless gurbani mahavaks and hindus abides in any of four mahavaks it provides union between atma and paratma by kirpa of shared Sat Guru of all - All pervading eternal consciousness/ awareness.

Also based on those mahavaks and 4000 gyan surti shaloks- expansive commentary -exegesis  108 upanishads were written which talks about turiya avastha.

Sikhs or any group claiming ownership of turiya is like claiming ownership of consciousness which is in everyone, air, water, fire, earth and sky. You should get rid of your manmat ways.

 

 

Quote

I never said vedas were satguru,

 

No one accused you on this thread of saying it is.  I was making clear statements of Sant ji katha so people are not misled. I also said the katha of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji doesn't say the vedas will take a person to satguru.  You failed to acknowledge this fact.

 

 

Quote

read the analysis if vedas were so worthless, sant ji wouldn't have done comparison- mahavaks from vedas comparison with gurbani mahavaks comparison to show Gurbani has more mahavaks than vedas which has only four.

 

I read the katha and also listened to the katha of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji of Ang 154.

 

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥

 

ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰੈ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਹਿਤਕਾਰੁ ॥

 

ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਕਥਹਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥

 

ਤੀਨਿ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਨੁ ॥

 

ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧॥ Ang 154

 

In the audio katha Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji fully agrees that the 4 vedas only speak of 3 states. Sant ji further says only Satguru can merge/ give mukhti as the Gurbani on Ang 154 says. Yet you say the 4 mahavaks of the vedas can unite the soul with God by grace of shared Satguru.  Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji in the written katha or audio katha never says the 4 mahavaks unite the soul to God by grace of shared Satguru.  How can the vedas unite the soul with God when they speak only of visible form and don't know who Satguru is. 

 

 

Quote

 

Nevertheless, if sikhs abides in our countless gurbani mahavaks and hindus abides in any of four mahavaks it provides union between atma and paratma by kirpa of shared Sat Guru of all - All pervading eternal consciousness/ awareness.

 

This is your belief not of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji or Gurbani. Had any part of the vedas been able to deliver anyone to Satguru, Gurbani would not have clearly said the vedas only speak of the 3 states. Gurbani would have said the vedas know the fourth state, turiya avastha. Also Gurbani says only Satguru can unite the soul with God and Gurbani is the Guru. The vedas don't know who is Satguru, so how can they direct anyone to the Guru?  Whether vedas have 4 mahavaks or none, the satguru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is saying the 4 vedas only know of the 3 states.

 

 

 
Also based on those mahavaks and 4000 gyan surti shaloks- expansive commentary -exegesis  108 upanishads were written which talks about turiya avastha.

 

When the vedas, according to Gurbani don't know anything about turiya avastha. Then how can anything based on the vedas know the fourth state, turiya avastha?

 

 

 
Sikhs or any group claiming owne

rship of turiya is like claiming ownership of consciousness which is in everyone, air, water, fire, earth and sky. You should get rid of your manmat ways.

A Sikh has Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as their Guru and this Guru says:

 

ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧॥

 

the fourth state, turiya avastha (union with Akal Purakh) is only know by Satguru.

 

So Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is claiming ownership of turiya avastha. 

 

 

Edited by Akalifauj

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On 3/4/2018 at 9:07 AM, superkaur said:

Basically gurbani is talking about and directly to those religious extremists/fanatics of hinduism, islam and christainity went around preaching all others religious books are false and only their religions has the only truth and path to salvation.

Gurbani is saying those who do not understand the meanings and essence of most religious books are false. And most religious books are teaching humanity the same basic principles how to live a civilized human being and do good to each other and how to run a moral society and seek salvation through meditation/prayers.

Gurbani is NOT saying Islam/quran is true so don't refute or counter its arguments. Is NOT saying vedas/hinduism is true so don't refute or counter its arguments. Is NOT saying bible/chrisianity is true so don't refute or counter its arguments.

Because quite clearly in vast majority of instances in SGGS Ji most of rituals and tenets of islam, hinduism and christianity are countered and are refuted.

I think this makes the most sense to me. Wonderful answer.

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