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Budha Dal & Banda Bairagi - The Facts


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Can Mahakaal provide proof of Baba Banda Singh claiming to be Guru from the writings of Baba Banda  Singh Bahadur? Baba Ji wrote many letters and he never once refers to himself as Guru. The fact that he always refers to Guru Gobind Singh ji as Guru and in Guru jee's name he had issued the coins of the Sikh state. He was so humble that he never even claimed to be a king like Maharaja Ranjit Singh did after winning a huge territory.

 

The only contemporary sources to refer to him as Guru were the Mughals ones so it can be said to be Mughal propaganda to sow discord in Sikh ranks. We've had similar situation in our own recent times when GOI and their Sikh chumchas claim Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale wanted to become Guru of the Sikhs. But in today's age of technology and knowledge we were better able to counter these claims. But Sikhs 300 years ago did not have the resources as Sikhs today do to counter government propaganda.

 

The so called letters of Mata ji against Baba Ji are forged. Dr Anurag Singh studied these letters and is of the opinion that they do not match her writing style

 

Now discuss without personal insults this time.

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The so called letters of Mata ji against Baba Ji are forged. Dr Anurag Singh studied these letters and is of the opinion that they do not match her writing style

can you provide letters that are authenticated to be written by Mata Sundri Ji? 

Quote

The only contemporary sources to refer to him as Guru were the Mughals ones so it can be said to be Mughal propaganda to sow discord in Sikh ranks. We've had similar situation in our own recent times when GOI and their Sikh chumchas claim Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale wanted to become Guru of the Sikhs. But in today's age of technology and knowledge we were better able to counter these claims. But Sikhs 300 years ago did not have the resources as Sikhs today do to counter government propaganda.

Again that's speculation. You have the words of one scholar vs the words of the Mukhi of the institute that specialised in preserving Sikh History. Why would Sant Jarnail Singh Ji slander someone? was he wrong then? 

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Baba Ji wrote many letters and he never once refers to himself as Guru. 

Can you provide those letters please? so we can also cross examine them? the dates on them will be really important as well.

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35 minutes ago, Jonny101 said:

Can Mahakaal provide proof of Baba Banda Singh claiming to be Guru from the writings of Baba Banda  Singh Bahadur? Baba Ji wrote many letters and he never once refers to himself as Guru. The fact that he always refers to Guru Gobind Singh ji as Guru and in Guru jee's name he had issued the coins of the Sikh state. He was so humble that he never even claimed to be a king like Maharaja Ranjit Singh did after winning a huge territory.

 

The only contemporary sources to refer to him as Guru were the Mughals ones so it can be said to be Mughal propaganda to sow discord in Sikh ranks. We've had similar situation in our own recent times when GOI and their Sikh chumchas claim Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale wanted to become Guru of the Sikhs. But in today's age of technology and knowledge we were better able to counter these claims. But Sikhs 300 years ago did not have the resources as Sikhs today do to counter government propaganda.

 

The so called letters of Mata ji against Baba Ji are forged. Dr Anurag Singh studied these letters and is of the opinion that they do not match her writing style

 

Now discuss without personal insults this time.

Mata Sundri Ji’s rehitnama from Giani Gian singh commentary was provided on previous thread.

Sant Jarnail Singh katha link provided

Rattan Singh Bhangu panth Prakash listed as source

Kavi Santokh Singh Suraj Prakash listed

History from Budha Dal oral tradition provided on this thread

local history in Hazur Sahib can be sourced first hand 

You provide 1 name, DR Anurag Singh to dissprove the above mentioned sources then ask for more evidence?....... your having a laugh.

The ball is firmly in your court to provide something other then someone’s name..... a name you are using to say that Mata Sundri Ji hukamnama is forged & that Sant Jarnail singh (Taksal), Rattan singh Bhangu (grandson of Mehtab Singh), Kavi Santokh singh, Giani Gian Singh, Budha Dal (puratan sampardai) Hazur Sahib (local history) were all duped & are wrong!!!

 

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1 minute ago, Kira said:

can you provide letters that are authenticated to be written by Mata Sundri Ji? 

Again that's speculation. You have the words of one scholar vs the words of the Mukhi of the institute that specialised in preserving Sikh History. Why would Sant Jarnail Singh Ji slander someone? was he wrong then? 

Can you provide those letters please? so we can also cross examine them? the dates on them will be really important as well.

I don't have the letters of Mata ji at present. As for letters of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, I've read them a long time ago from a book I had. I will see if I still have it in my personal library.

As for Sant ji. They said said that based on Panth Prakash and PP was written during the era of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Besides that PP is not Gurbani that it cannot contain mistakes and we cannot scrutinize it. For example PP claims Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh was killed due to being cursed and that Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Singh jee drank Bhang first thing in the morning even before Ishnan and Nitnem(which goes against Nihang maryadha of not eating before Ishnan).

 

Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was the personal hand picked choice of Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj. I have faith in Guru jee's personal choice. He was given Amrit in presence of Guru ji. He was given 5 arrows from the quiver of Guru ji. Only a Gurmukh can be so blessed not a manmukh.

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11 minutes ago, Mahakaal96 said:

Mata Sundri Ji’s rehitnama from Giani Gian singh commentary was provided on previous thread.

Sant Jarnail Singh katha link provided

Rattan Singh Bhangu panth Prakash listed as source

Kavi Santokh Singh Suraj Prakash listed

History from Budha Dal oral tradition provided on this thread

local history in Hazur Sahib can be sourced first hand 

You provide 1 name, DR Anurag Singh to dissprove the above mentioned sources then ask for more evidence?....... your having a laugh.

The ball is firmly in your court to provide something other then someone’s name..... a name you are using to say that Mata Sundri Ji hukamnama is forged & that Sant Jarnail singh (Taksal), Rattan singh Bhangu (grandson of Mehtab Singh), Kavi Santokh singh, Giani Gian Singh, Budha Dal (puratan sampardai) Hazur Sahib (local history) were all duped & are wrong!!!

 

You didn't address any of my points. Can you provide any thing from the writings of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur to prove he claimed to be Guru? Have you even read his letters? The only contemporary source to say he is Guru was from the Mughals who were our enemies and the primary source of this false propaganda

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43 minutes ago, Jonny101 said:

I don't have the letters of Mata ji at present. As for letters of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, I've read them a long time ago from a book I had. I will see if I still have it in my personal library.

Please do, the dates will be really significant. 

Quote

As for Sant ji. They said said that based on Panth Prakash and PP was written during the era of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Besides that PP is not Gurbani that it cannot contain mistakes and we cannot scrutinize it. For example PP claims Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh was killed due to being cursed and that Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Singh jee drank Bhang first thing in the morning even before Ishnan and Nitnem(which goes against Nihang maryadha of not eating before Ishnan).

Pant Prakash wasn't the only thing they based it on. Suraj Prakash Granth also notes this, not only that but the oral tradition of 2 Sampradaya also state this. Both of whom have their differences but share the same collective history, a large majority of our own history is based on oral traditions as it is.

 

Quote

Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was the personal hand picked choice of Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj. I have faith in Guru jee's personal choice. He was given Amrit in presence of Guru ji. He was given 5 arrows from the quiver of Guru ji. Only a Gurmukh can be so blessed not a manmukh.

No-one's saying that Baba Ji was a manmukh, no doubt in my mind Baba Ji was a highly Spiritual being who deserves respect. Guru Ji gave Baba Banda Singh Bahadur Ji very precise Hukam which was to avenge the Sahibzade, which Baba Ji did. But he was also told to raze Sirhind which he didn't do. There were plenty of people that were blessed by Guru Ji, but Hukam took them elsewhere. Guru Ji sent Baba Ram Rai Ji to Aurangzeb and we all know how that went, the blame lies in the person who does it not the Guru. The Guru is aware of what is to come, for all we know it could have been part of his play. A test for the Khalsa to overcome.

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31 minutes ago, Kira said:

Please do, the dates will be really significant. 

Pant Prakash wasn't the only thing they based it on. Suraj Prakash Granth also notes this, not only that but the oral tradition of 2 Sampradaya also state this. Both of whom have their differences but share the same collective history, a large majority of our own history is based on oral traditions as it is.

 

No-one's saying that Baba Ji was a manmukh, no doubt in my mind Baba Ji was a highly Spiritual being who deserves respect. Guru Ji gave Baba Banda Singh Bahadur Ji very precise Hukam which was to avenge the Sahibzade, which Baba Ji did. But he was also told to raze Sirhind which he didn't do. There were plenty of people that were blessed by Guru Ji, but Hukam took them elsewhere. Guru Ji sent Baba Ram Rai Ji to Aurangzeb and we all know how that went, the dosh lies in the person who does it not the Guru. The Guru is aware of what is to come, for all we know it could have been part of his play. A test for the Khalsa to overcome.

My points about PP also stand for Suraj Prakash. Like PP, the SP was also written during the era of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. We should not treat PP and SP as if they are Dhur Ki Bani which cannot contain mistakes or errors. Personally I like to read PP and SP but I don't blindly believe everything from those Granths. The opinion of two Sampradahs I can respect but I respectfully disagree because those opinions were based on PP and SP and those two Granths based their opinion on forged letters.

 

From the same Sampradah, Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale also had Divine Darshan of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur as a Shaheed Singh along with Baba Deep Singh jee and 3 other respected Shaheed Singhs. If he was a Manmukh(who claimed to be a Guru) how could he be in the ranks of the Shaheed Singhs like Baba Deep Singh Jee? I don't know if you believe in the existence of Shaheed Singhs or how much you have read SP, but SP also mentions an incident where Guru Gobind Singh jee gave Baba Banda Singh Bahadur divine vision of Shaheed Singhs. How can a Manmukh who claims to be a Guru have blessed Darshan of Shaheed Singhs? Only a high caliber Gurmukh can have such divine visions.

 

Besides this, look at the way he became Shaheed. Having his son killed right in front of his eyes yet did not leave Sikhi, was tortured in the most unimaginable ways yet refused to leave Sikhi. Can a Manmukh(who claims to be Guru and all the other Manmukhi things PP and SP claims about him) go through all such tortures and have his son killed right in front of himself and not flinch? I doubt it. These are the clear signs of a Gurmukh Pyara and not just any Gurmukh but a Gurmukh of high spiritual states.

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8 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

You didn't address any of my points. Can you provide any thing from the writings of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur to prove he claimed to be Guru? Have you even read his letters? The only contemporary source to say he is Guru was from the Mughals who were our enemies and the primary source of this false propaganda

Again, I reiterate my point, you have shown no actual sources that back up your view, all you have provided is 1 name yet continue to ask for even more sources & evidence from those who oppose your view. If this were an actual gyan sabha you would be laughed out the door by now.

Untill you provide sources & evidence that back up your views & hold as much weight as the names & sources I have provided this discussion can not continue.

Lets keep it factual & leave the emotional heartstring stuff like Gurmukh/manmukh stuff to one side for now...... but if you insist on going down that route & base your argument on how could someone ‘handpicked’ by mahraj fall from grace then the example given by Kira is appropriate. If 7ve Gurus own biological son Ram Rai can fall from grace then why not anyone else? Those who do not understand the complexity of hankar & ego wont be able to get their head around that. 

Besides, it is universally accepted that Banda redeemed himself during his shaheedi, so again, leave the emotional stuff to 1 side & let’s stick to the facts & please provide sources that your views are based on. Emotional blackmail, personal feelings & individual personality worship traits do not count in a genuine gyan sabha.

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