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Divorce in Sikhism


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1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

in the 1960s it allowed married men to have that fling without the consequences , a la 'mad men ' ...

err  the pill was stigmatised from its inception that it was a bad girl's tool  as good married women why did they need to worry about being pregnancy yaddayadda yadda, it took at least until the eighties to lose that infamy . White folks can be judgey too.

the whole argument that women only have sex because they like it eliminates those who are forced, or told not to is against the whole obedience principle of Abrahamic faiths i.e. you have to obey your husband/you cannot say no....even Hindus have that kind of attitude 

that's why women in Pakistan/Afghanistan/catholics  have to be sly and take a norplant implantable control to prevent unwanted pregnancies and children they can't afford . The men will never agree as Allah/God will provide.

Not saying there aren't women who cheat but they lose much more than guys even these days ...they lose all respect of their peers , the women think of her as a loose cannon/maneater.threat , the men think she's easy/fodder/expendable.

I have three sons and I refuse to let them become new style wimps , I warn them of how women manipulate  and give them the inside edge so they don't get into a mess with headcases.- after all isn't that what a good parent does . No I don't see men as wholly different from me they are humans who on the whole have similar needs and wants , I don't go for the mind games they play also like the fake incompetence when it comes to domestic stuff  just as I don't let myself have excuses for not learning to do jobs such as fixing stuff, building furniture , decorating etc . I was not born with diy skills just as I was not born with dressmaking homemaking skills they all acquired with effort and time same him.

In crunch times such as our house fire I was the calm and focussed one and he froze did I freak NO because it can happen to anyone . I helped him get the kids out of their cots and out of the house instead trying to phone the fire brigade from the house ....same when he suddenly passed out mid meal(post dive) I picked him up off floor ,did ABC and phoned for the ambulance . When I needed him he was there for me . Ultimately I want to see someone I can rely on to share bad times and good times  just as I hope I am his backup . its just two halves of the same mirror ...helping each other to see our faults and to work towards improving them

 

 

 

 

 

Whether anyone likes it or not, there are biological differences between men and women and millions of years of evolution and thousands of years of culture are going to be an enforcing a lot of behaviours. 

Reality is yes you are correct, a cheating woman is going to be seen as expendable, there will be men that will see her as easy.  A man who does cheat is not going to be the same way in this instance.

" A key that can unlock any lock is seen as a master key, however a lock that can be opened by any key is a lousy lock"

I don't want to get into your personal anecdotes but a husband and wife should complement each other, but the problem is that they are made to compete with another. 

That is a big part of the problem. 

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6 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Whether anyone likes it or not, there are biological differences between men and women and millions of years of evolution and thousands of years of culture are going to be an enforcing a lot of behaviours. 

Reality is yes you are correct, a cheating woman is going to be seen as expendable, there will be men that will see her as easy.  A man who does cheat is not going to be the same way in this instance.

" A key that can unlock any lock is seen as a master key, however a lock that can be opened by any key is a lousy lock"

I don't want to get into your personal anecdotes but a husband and wife should complement each other, but the problem is that they are made to compete with another. 

That is a big part of the problem. 

the whole problem is when we allow outside influences set the personal agendas for our lives and our families . I distance myself from all the neoliberal led BS including youth programming via kid's TV , apart from dumbing down and robbing them of independent thought they do little . Our coconut bretheren are victims of this programming where you have to fit in with the crowd to be alright . Yes, I've had to deal with this  myself and in turn my kids had to , seems like a rite of passage for every sikh , cave or stand strong , unfortunately unaware sikh kids cave and become Siggas (sikh Niggas) or Sikh roadmen to try and impress their non-sikh friends . There are gursikhs who are just camoflagued coconuts  and it these types who form the bulk of gursikh divorce stats after a group of hidden abusive/business relationship types which have always been there .

Rediscovering true sikh roots usually is the galvanising formula for troubled marriages I have heard from a few couple plagued by alcoholism, drugs or unfaithfulness mentality that Guru ji's kirpa turns the page for them . In Sikhi , marriage is acceptance -warts and all  and working together  never a war unless one partner is going against sikh principles , it's understanding and working through problems . It's mutual respect , it accepting one's own weaknesses and asking for help , it is the nursery for the 5 Gunns .

The new western model of marriage is power struggle, winning the upper hand, control , it is about physical desires more than acceptance , its the guy and girl doing their own thing , rarely compromising , if they are lucky they may have good supportive examples in their bazurg so may be will try to sort out their problems but most will throw in the towel. Spirituality is not really a strong aspect of marriage any more for them . The attitude is why fight to keep something which I will have to actively attend to and nurture when I could try and find a better partner who will love me for me i.e. turn a blind eye to my faults and be a doormat.

 

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On 2/18/2018 at 12:45 AM, jkvlondon said:

in the 1960s it allowed married men to have that fling without the consequences , a la 'mad men ' ...

err  the pill was stigmatised from its inception that it was a bad girl's tool  as good married women why did they need to worry about being pregnancy yaddayadda yadda, it took at least until the eighties to lose that infamy . White folks can be judgey too.

the whole argument that women only have sex because they like it eliminates those who are forced, or told not to is against the whole obedience principle of Abrahamic faiths i.e. you have to obey your husband/you cannot say no....even Hindus have that kind of attitude 

that's why women in Pakistan/Afghanistan/catholics  have to be sly and take a norplant implantable control to prevent unwanted pregnancies and children they can't afford . The men will never agree as Allah/God will provide.

Not saying there aren't women who cheat but they lose much more than guys even these days ...they lose all respect of their peers , the women think of her as a loose cannon/maneater.threat , the men think she's easy/fodder/expendable.

I have three sons and I refuse to let them become new style wimps , I warn them of how women manipulate  and give them the inside edge so they don't get into a mess with headcases.- after all isn't that what a good parent does . No I don't see men as wholly different from me they are humans who on the whole have similar needs and wants , I don't go for the mind games they play also like the fake incompetence when it comes to domestic stuff  just as I don't let myself have excuses for not learning to do jobs such as fixing stuff, building furniture , decorating etc . I was not born with diy skills just as I was not born with dressmaking homemaking skills they all acquired with effort and time same him.

 

WE need to be made aware by reading charitropakhyan !

"Mata ji returned to Anandpur Sahib saying these words, and Guru Gobind Singh ji went into Samadhi for some time. Guru ji has just finished 324th Charittar. Suddenly Maharaj opened his eyes and asked Likhari Singh to be Saavdhaan. Suddenly Maharaj stopped, and asked Likhari Singh to Jump to Charittar 326. Maharaj finished remaining Charittars and after writing 404 Charittar, in the end counted 405 charittars.

Likhari Singh, Bhai Darbari asked,’’ Maharaj,We have written just 404 Charittasr, why have you counted 405 Charittars in the End? And where is 325th Charittar?’’

Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj smiled and said Sikha, ‘’ When Mataji left, I decided to write charittar of Maha Maaya, Sri Maya Lachmi ji, the creative power of Waheguru which creates, preserves and destroys the universe. But Maharaj Akaal purakh stopped me from doing so, as when the Charittar would have been written, Maha-Maaya would have been overcome and finished. Earth, Moon, Sun, Stars, this Universe would have collapsed and there would have been Parlay (doomsday). No one has been able to imagine or explain the vastness of Maya, but I wished to write this Charittar of Maya, which has taken Human beings away from their real-Self, Sri Waheguru ji. Once the Charittar was finished, Maaya would have been rendered weak and helpless, all pure souls would have gone to Sachkhand and world would have ended.’’

 

On 2/18/2018 at 1:21 AM, jkvlondon said:

Mani Singh ji had two wives didn't he ...  Muslim men have to pay a bride price so that is probably one reason not so many remarriages of  abandoned women unless they had own wealth. The other is the idea that there is someone alive who has known your wife ...very emasculating  and ego-pricking.

 

There's also this weird rule they have where you can only marry someone you divorced in the past (ie your exe) by getting that person married to someone else first! Oh yes, the prophet married an "abandoned" rich older woman! And they can have extra/pre-marital relations with women (including married women) that their "right hands possess" ie war slaves/war booty, as long as they are at war/jihad with them. in this case, as long as they  think they are in jihad, they can misuse women.

 

On 2/18/2018 at 2:28 AM, Ranjeet01 said:

 

Reality is yes you are correct, a cheating woman is going to be seen as expendable, there will be men that will see her as easy.  A man who does cheat is not going to be the same way in this instance.

" A key that can unlock any lock is seen as a master key, however a lock that can be opened by any key is a lousy lock"

 

Unfortunately we are now in an environment where the culture has become to change partners like clothes, and no need to be married to such partners and see them with a disrespectful eye not as life partners.

It used to be a woman became "rundee" when she was widowed. But now divorce and pre-marital partnerships are creating "rundees", where the husband is not dead but just dead to the woman.

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5 minutes ago, ipledgeblue said:

WE need to be made aware by reading charitropakhyan !

"Mata ji returned to Anandpur Sahib saying these words, and Guru Gobind Singh ji went into Samadhi for some time. Guru ji has just finished 324th Charittar. Suddenly Maharaj opened his eyes and asked Likhari Singh to be Saavdhaan. Suddenly Maharaj stopped, and asked Likhari Singh to Jump to Charittar 326. Maharaj finished remaining Charittars and after writing 404 Charittar, in the end counted 405 charittars.

Likhari Singh, Bhai Darbari asked,’’ Maharaj,We have written just 404 Charittasr, why have you counted 405 Charittars in the End? And where is 325th Charittar?’’

Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj smiled and said Sikha, ‘’ When Mataji left, I decided to write charittar of Maha Maaya, Sri Maya Lachmi ji, the creative power of Waheguru which creates, preserves and destroys the universe. But Maharaj Akaal purakh stopped me from doing so, as when the Charittar would have been written, Maha-Maaya would have been overcome and finished. Earth, Moon, Sun, Stars, this Universe would have collapsed and there would have been Parlay (doomsday). No one has been able to imagine or explain the vastness of Maya, but I wished to write this Charittar of Maya, which has taken Human beings away from their real-Self, Sri Waheguru ji. Once the Charittar was finished, Maaya would have been rendered weak and helpless, all pure souls would have gone to Sachkhand and world would have ended.’’

 

There's also this weird rule they have where you can only marry someone you divorced in the past (ie your exe) by getting that person married to someone else first! Oh yes, the prophet married an "abandoned" rich older woman! And they can have extra/pre-marital relations with women (including married women) that their "right hands possess" ie war slaves/war booty, as long as they are at war/jihad with them. in this case, as long as they  think they are in jihad, they can misuse women.

 

Unfortunately we are now in an environment where the culture has become to change partners like clothes, and no need to be married to such partners and see them with a disrespectful eye not as life partners.

It used to be a woman became "rundee" when she was widowed. But now divorce and pre-marital partnerships are creating "rundees", where the husband is not dead but just dead to the woman.

For those who doubt 'Guru App Parmeshvar' Gurudev Pita ji has revealed exactly that power was at his comand ...

 

once again you have underlined it is a problem which the men's chiritaar could fix if they followed Gurdev Pita ji

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6 hours ago, ipledgeblue said:

WE need to be made aware by reading charitropakhyan !

"Mata ji returned to Anandpur Sahib saying these words, and Guru Gobind Singh ji went into Samadhi for some time. Guru ji has just finished 324th Charittar. Suddenly Maharaj opened his eyes and asked Likhari Singh to be Saavdhaan. Suddenly Maharaj stopped, and asked Likhari Singh to Jump to Charittar 326. Maharaj finished remaining Charittars and after writing 404 Charittar, in the end counted 405 charittars.

Likhari Singh, Bhai Darbari asked,’’ Maharaj,We have written just 404 Charittasr, why have you counted 405 Charittars in the End? And where is 325th Charittar?’’

Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj smiled and said Sikha, ‘’ When Mataji left, I decided to write charittar of Maha Maaya, Sri Maya Lachmi ji, the creative power of Waheguru which creates, preserves and destroys the universe. But Maharaj Akaal purakh stopped me from doing so, as when the Charittar would have been written, Maha-Maaya would have been overcome and finished. Earth, Moon, Sun, Stars, this Universe would have collapsed and there would have been Parlay (doomsday). No one has been able to imagine or explain the vastness of Maya, but I wished to write this Charittar of Maya, which has taken Human beings away from their real-Self, Sri Waheguru ji. Once the Charittar was finished, Maaya would have been rendered weak and helpless, all pure souls would have gone to Sachkhand and world would have ended.’’

 

There's also this weird rule they have where you can only marry someone you divorced in the past (ie your exe) by getting that person married to someone else first! Oh yes, the prophet married an "abandoned" rich older woman! And they can have extra/pre-marital relations with women (including married women) that their "right hands possess" ie war slaves/war booty, as long as they are at war/jihad with them. in this case, as long as they  think they are in jihad, they can misuse women.

 

Unfortunately we are now in an environment where the culture has become to change partners like clothes, and no need to be married to such partners and see them with a disrespectful eye not as life partners.

It used to be a woman became "rundee" when she was widowed. But now divorce and pre-marital partnerships are creating "rundees", where the husband is not dead but just dead to the woman.

Well, we live in a society where marriage is not valued, only for looking on the wedding day.

We live in a society where we no longer fix things, we just throw away things once they lose their usefulness. 

The human gene pool shows that at least 80 percent of men historically never had children, where at least 80 percent of women did. 

What this means before the advent of marriage, one man would have many women to have children with. This is what happens in the animal kingdom, where the alpha male will have his share of the females. 

The reality is (I might sound sexist, but it is largely true). Women have sexually selected men for resources and genetic material ).

What has happened is that women no longer value marriage with men because they do not require resources so for a lot of them all that is left is the Alpha stud.

The vast majority of men are not alpha studs, it is a very tiny percentage. Women will always go for a man that is the highest value, even if she herself are not of the same value.

Society seems to be regressing back to the pre-marital age  (like back to hunter gather type society).

It is very dangerous because potentially there maybe a lot of unmarried men in society.

From a Sikhi point of view, we are supposed to live a ghristi Jeevan life and the regression of society means it is going to be increasing difficult. 

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49 minutes ago, ipledgeblue said:

however Guru's rehit combines both hunter-gather mentality with grihast. Khalsa is also supposed to have this instinct as well, but secterian rehats are making us lose this.

err hunter gather society is cohesive and stable model where there is complementary roles of men and women and relationships are not predatory but long lasting , there are still tribes  living the life around the globe .

Guru ji's wisdom is that we be self-sufficient individuals who co-operate with others all the time to better the world and ourselves .

What this 'developed world' mess up is heading to is impotent men hooked on porn with rubber dollies and the same for women or both sexes turning celibate due to lack of social skills with very few babies being born just look at Japan and South Korea.

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On 2/18/2018 at 6:45 AM, ipledgeblue said:

talaq is not compatible with dharmik culture, it is an abrahamic thing.

Agree with the fact that Talaq is not compatible with Sikhi. Even the word comes from Muslim lands.

However, I think you paint with too broad a brush when you call divorce an "abrahamic thing".

Christianity doesn't allow divorce, except for just a couple of specified situations:

Jesus said:

 He said to them, “It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery.”[a]

Matthew 19

Marriage is seen as a holy sacrament in Christianity. By contrast, there is nothing holy about marriage in Islam. It is merely a worldly contract, and divorce is explicitly allowed in the Koran.

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35 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Agree with the fact that Talaq is not compatible with Sikhi. Even the word comes from Muslim lands.

However, I think you paint with too broad a brush when you call divorce an "abrahamic thing".

Christianity doesn't allow divorce, except for just a couple of specified situations:

Jesus said:

 He said to them, “It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery.”[a]

Matthew 19

Marriage is seen as a holy sacrament in Christianity. By contrast, there is nothing holy about marriage in Islam. It is merely a worldly contract, and divorce is explicitly allowed in the Koran.

but he also says later that if the husband becomes nastik a wife has the right to disassociate herself from him .

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