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TheeTurbanator

Would A Transgender Amritdhari Sikh Be A Singh or Kaur?

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Lets suppose that I am a "transgender Sikh" who was originally biologically male but now identify as a female. Lets assume that I receive "Khand Di Phaul", which is the official initiation into the Khalsa Panth. Would I then call myself a Singh or a Kaur? What does Gurbani or Rehat have to say on this? 

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56 minutes ago, TheeTurbanator said:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Lets suppose that I am a "transgender Sikh" who was originally biologically male but now identify as a female. Lets assume that I receive "Khand Di Phaul", which is the official initiation into the Khalsa Panth. Would I then call myself a Singh or a Kaur? What does Gurbani or Rehat have to say on this? 

Well socially, where I'm from, you treat a person as the gender they identify with, but that is a really interesting question that I don't have any Gurbani based answer too. 

Really curious what people have to say. 

Nice one. 

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I was hoping for a proper discussion with reference to Gurbani, Rehat, and History. It’s not good enough to give shallow one line answers on such complex issues. I didn’t come here to get simple answers I can get from my local Gurdwara baba, I came here for intellectually stimulating and productive conversations. 

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21 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

That's harsh, bro.

I'm not being harsh lol, im speaking from history.

4 minutes ago, TheeTurbanator said:

I was hoping for a proper discussion with reference to Gurbani, Rehat, and History. It’s not good enough to give shallow one line answers on such complex issues. I didn’t come here to get simple answers I can get from my local Gurdwara baba, I came here for intellectually stimulating and productive conversations. 

There's a rigorous process to who gets amrit, in the ye olden days they used to do alot of looking into the person. If the person was a muslim the Nihangs used to make them eat pork to fully to prove they weren't muslim anymore (spies and such). Things like transgenderism (gender dysphoria) would  be and is a mental disorder. Can you imagine a dude, dressing up as a Singhni? We're meant to accept Hukam, not tell people God made a mistake in giving us this gender.

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53 minutes ago, Kira said:

We're meant to accept Hukam, not tell people God made a mistake in giving us this gender.

If someone has cancer, then does that mean that God made a mistake? of course not. Everything is a part of human, even being LGBTQ. If someone is committed to Sikhi, and truly wants to give their head to the Guru, why should their sexuality stop them? Science is showing that sometimes your sexuality isnt your "choice", and a lot of programs meant to "cure" LGBTQ people have failed. 

As I have asked before. can you please cite any Gurbani. or Rehat? You already gave a historical example. 

 

53 minutes ago, Kira said:

Things like transgenderism (gender dysphoria) would  be and is a mental disorder.

How is it? there are actual chemicals involved and this is a complex issue. Assuming it is a mental disorder, does that mean we dont allow mental people to receive Khand Di Phaul? in 1699 did the Guru say no mental people allowed to give their head? 

 

53 minutes ago, Kira said:

I'm not being harsh lol, im speaking from history.

1 hour ago, TheeTurbanator said:

Historically Sikhs didnt do a lot of stuff, like allow women into the Panj Pyare, or even in a lot of cases, women into the Khalsa Army and gave them a separate initiation process called "Kirpan Di Phaul". 

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If someone has cancer, then does that mean that God made a mistake? of course not. Everything is a part of human, even being LGBTQ. If someone is committed to Sikhi, and truly wants to give their head to the Guru, why should their sexuality stop them? Science is showing that sometimes your sexuality isnt your "choice", and a lot of programs meant to "cure" LGBTQ people have failed. 

Sexuality is different from Transgender-ism, Gay folk aren't trying to tell people God made a mistake with their body. Comparing Cancer to gender mismatch is like comparing a knife wound to an orange. Cancer can be treated, Cancer patients don't tell people that God made a mistake. They accept it and move on. Transgenders tell people God made a mistake with their gender, they're not willing to accept their body, how can you even argue that feelings such as that are in line with Gurmat. 

Quote

As I have asked before. can you please cite any Gurbani. or Rehat? You already gave a historical example. 

That is from Rehit, These checks were always conducts by the highest Mahapurkhs. You can look through Gurbani about accept yourself for how you are, even if you're disfigured. What's so unique about transgenders that they can't accept that their gender is the one God gave them.

Quote

How is it? there are actual chemicals involved and this is a complex issue. Assuming it is a mental disorder, does that mean we dont allow mental people to receive Khand Di Phaul? in 1699 did the Guru say no mental people allowed to give their head? 

It was always classified as a mental disorder, only recently when the PC police arrived that people started taking that out. Trasngenderism is caused by an imbalance in the brain, the Khalsa is the saroop of the Guru. Of course they would make sure the ones who enter into it are able to uphold it without any problems.

Quote

Historically Sikhs didnt do a lot of stuff, like allow women into the Panj Pyare, or even in a lot of cases, women into the Khalsa Army and gave them a separate initiation process called "Kirpan Di Phaul". 

In alot of cases? Don't exaggerate. Women aren't allowed into the Panj for a valid reason, Mahapurkhs like Sant Jarnail Singh Ji all said women aren't allowed in, Woman already give birth (physical) while men give spiritual birth. There's equality. Just like God gave women a method of birth and involvement in the panth, God also gave men a role too.

The Hijra were always around since the time of the Gurus, yet no record of one being inaugurated into the Panth. To argue that a social issue that was around back then is somehow a "modern" development is an insult to the all seeing eye of the Guru. 

Don't get me wrong, If they want to join that's fine. But they can't call themselves transgender or start telling people God made a mistake. They'll be given the surname Singh if biologically  male and Kaur if otherwise a female. 

 

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2 hours ago, Kira said:

I'm not being harsh lol, im speaking from history.

That's fine. You're an excellent contributor to this forum, and I respect your opinions. You know I'm not one for advocating degeneracy and the kind of nonsense that passes for modern life in certain circles, but sometimes we forget that behind the ideologies and the loud voices, there are people like you and I who are just trying to make sense of it all, and maybe I'm being naive, but I'd like to think a bit of understanding and compassion for people goes a long way. I'm not suggesting we start conducting Anand Karaj ceremonies for trans people, lol. 

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Just now, MisterrSingh said:

That's fine. You're an excellent contributor to this forum, and I respect your opinions. You know I'm not one for advocating degeneracy and the kind of nonsense that passes for modern life in certain circles, but sometimes we forget that behind the ideologies and the loud voices, there are people like you and I who are just trying to make sense of it all, and maybe I'm being naive, but I'd like to think a bit of understanding and compassion for people goes a long way. I'm not suggesting we start conducting Anand Karan ceremonies for trans people, lol. 

that's transphobia there mate, the internet police are coming. I have no problem with trans or even gay folk, they're human beings and deserve the same compassion we give our loved ones. 

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5 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

That's harsh, bro.

not living in hukam in a major way , so not really ready to follow the Guru ... just the truth bro

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4 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

not living in hukam in a major way , so not really ready to follow the Guru ... just the truth bro

True. That doesn't mean there's something inside of them that doesn't crave the Guru. How they manage to get there is anybody's guess. 

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4 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

True. That doesn't mean there's something inside of them that doesn't crave the Guru. How they manage to get there is anybody's guess. 

what I have seen in the gay section of any society is they think the faiths they want should alter their fundamental requirements to accomodate their lifestyles etc however this is total opposite attitude the faith adherents inculcate they come from a point of nimrata and longing , willing to sacrifice comforts and ease to serve their faith and Akal Purakh. Any mention of discarding extra martital sex is an anathaema to them , and they often distort the teaching to justify their lifestyles not seeing that losing kaam, krodh ahankar , etc as positives for life . No doubt there are a small minority who can and do change and sacrifice their sexlife a become behingam to serve the Guru ji and I have no problems with that  but it is literally handfuls amongst thousands .

The transgender people can choose what they like but the Guru's rehit is atal , they can serve the panth in their new form and do sewa etc but on a mental/emotional level they have rejected Guru ji's wisdom so deeply and let their haumai rule . If we can reject a mona for amrit because he/she rejects hukam of kesh  in fact they are considered patit  what level would you consider someone who alters his/her physical form in every possible way ?

 

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Interesting question, unfortunately don't know the answer. Vaishakhi is coming up in april, there will be lots of amrit sanchars occurring across the country,  just call them gurdwara and ask panj pyares directly instead of relying on indirect inferences here, just ask i have a friend who belongs to hijare(transsexual) category , is he/she allowed to take amrit?. If its allowed, don't think you have to pick singh or kaur then there nor they assigned to you, at least not that i am aware of.?

I would think its not clear cut-simple yes or no, its probably assessed case by case basis depending on seeker interest in sikhi and state of mind.

According to my understanding panj pyares (pacha ka gur ek dyaan) mostly they only operate and concentrate on/from universal all pervading guru(pure consciousness in all ) which exist in everyone and from universal sri guru granth sahib- universal sidhant of it, so fist they only see goodness so by default they operate from that point of view and assess case by case basis.

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spelling mistake.
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