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Would A Transgender Amritdhari Sikh Be A Singh or Kaur?

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9 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:
9 hours ago, Kira said:

There's wisdom in every religion, all the prophets who came before Satguru Nanak Dev Ji can take their followers far...but not to Sach Khand. Only with the help of a Satguru can one reach God, and the only Satguru around (ever) has been th Shabad Guru in the form of Guru Granth Sahib Ji now.

So by your own logic guru nanak dev ji didn't reach sach khand 

Lol

@Kira may have worded things in a way in which a non-Sikh or a newbie like @GurjantGnostic would be confused, but anybody who claims to be a Sikh should know what he's saying regarding the nature of Satguru.

God created the Shabad, it is another form of God. It's also the Guru, the Satguru.

As Satguru, the Shabad allows mortals to meet God. You can't meet God without the Shabad.

In 1469 AD, the Shabad manifested as Nanak in Rai Boie ki Talwandi.

The Shabad has a concentrated form (Naam), and an expanded form (Gurbani or Guru Granth Sahib).

 

Kira did not misstate the Sikh position: He used the word "now", which says that the Guru is now Guru Granth Sahib ji. And Guru Granth Sahib ji is the manifestation of Shabad.

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8 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

It also means you believe in the exclusivity of knowledge and only those party to said knowledge are able to find truth.. Which sounds remarkably like brahmanism.

Are you trying to state a truism? Only those who have a piece of knowledge have that knowledge?

Anyway, if you're trying to ask whether Sikhs believe that without the Guru there is lack of knowledge, yes, Sikhs do believe that:

Did you listen to Asa di Vaar this morning?

ਮਹਲਾ ੨ ॥

Mehalaa 2 ||

Second Mehl:

ਆਸਾ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ: (ਮਃ ੨) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅੰਗ ੪੬੩ 

Shabad ViewVerse View

 

ਜੇ ਸਉ ਚੰਦਾ ਉਗਵਹਿ ਸੂਰਜ ਚੜਹਿ ਹਜਾਰ ॥

Jae So Chandhaa Ougavehi Sooraj Charrehi Hajaar ||

If a hundred moons were to rise, and a thousand suns appeared,

ਏਤੇ ਚਾਨਣ ਹੋਦਿਆਂ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰ ॥੨॥

Eaethae Chaanan Hodhiaaan Gur Bin Ghor Andhhaar ||2||

Even with such light, there would still be pitch darkness without the Guru. ||2||

ਆਸਾ ਵਾਰ (ਮਃ ੧) (੧) ਸ. (੨) ੨:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੬੩ ਪੰ. ੧ 
Raag Asa Guru Angad Dev

 

Also:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਅੰਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥

Sathigur Baajhahu Andhh Gubaar ||

Without the True Guru, there is only pitch darkness.

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਸਤ ਵਾਰ (ਮਃ ੩) (੨) ੧੦:੩ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੪੩ ਪੰ. ੨ 
Raag Bilaaval Guru Amar Das

 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਸਮਝ ਨ ਹੋਵੀ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਦਬਿਆ ਛਾਪੈ ॥

Sathigur Baajhahu Samajh N Hovee Sabh Jag Dhabiaa Shhaapai ||

Without the True Guru, there is no understanding. The whole world is buried under its nightmare.

ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੈ ਬਿਲਲਾਤਉ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ॥

Karan Palaav Karai Bilalaatho Bin Gur Naam N Jaapai ||

The mortal tries all sorts of things, and weeps and wails, but without the Guru, he does not know the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਮਲਾਰ (ਮਃ ੧) ਅਸਟ. (੪) ੪:੩ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੭੫ ਪੰ. ੪ 
Raag Malar Guru Nanak Dev

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9 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:
9 hours ago, Kira said:

of course Naam is required. But there was a reason why Charan Pahul was started, one can sit here and recite bani all we wish, but we require a Satguru to take us to God. Satguru is Akaal Purkh, by drinking their amrit we're becoming theirs and theirs alone. 

So you believe the ceremony itself is transformational, easy peasy... Interesting seems contradictory to the overall principles of sikhi.. I never had you down as someone who would advocate rituals as a path to enlightenment.. I'm genuinely surprised 

The Amrit ceremony is transformational if your mind (mann) is earnestly devoted to Satguru.

ਮਨੁ ਬੇਚੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥

Man Baechai Sathigur Kai Paas ||

One who sells his mind to the True Guru

ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵਕ ਕੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਰਾਸਿ ॥

This Saevak Kae Kaaraj Raas ||

- that humble servant's affairs are resolved.

ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੮) ੨:੬ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੮੬ ਪੰ. ੧੯ 
Raag Gauri Sukhmanee Guru Arjan Dev

 

In an Amrit ceremony, the seeker asks for the Naam, and is given the teachings of the Guru:

ਮੈ ਦੀਜੈ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥

Mai Dheejai Naam Nivaas Anthar Saanth Hoe ||

Please, bless me with a home in Your Name; may my inner self be at peace.

ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਤਿ ਦੇਇ ॥੮॥੩॥੫॥

Gun Gaavai Naanak Dhaas Sathigur Math Dhaee ||8||3||5||

May slave Nanak sing Your Glorious Praises; O True Guru, please share the Teachings with me. ||8||3||5||

ਸੂਹੀ (ਮਃ ੧) ਅਸਟ. (੫) ੮:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੭੫੩ ਪੰ. ੩ 
Raag Suhi Guru Nanak Dev

 

If you're not earnest, i.e., if you're just doing it on a fake basis, it has no value.

Don't try to put up a strawman argument of people taking Amrit with no inner feeling whatsoever.

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8 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

They don't overlap lol try researching going beyond the lazy tropes you want to propagate.. You can shout and bad mouth me as much as you like but you will not find one scholar of sikh history who would agree with you.. Not one 

Quite a tall claim for you to make since you would have no way of having read Sikh history since you can't ready Punjabi. :hairan:

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3 hours ago, BhForce said:

Just a small quibble: Bhai Gurdas ji did not write any prose, only poetry. 

So rather than the way you phrase it above, it would be better to say: his doctrinal and metaphorical verses are separate from his historical ones. Both of them are written in poetry, though.

The key point (which @Sukhvirk1976 misses) is that the mere fact that a line is written in rhyme does not mean that is non-factual.

Just a mere point,  appreciate the fact that one needs to shudh tho

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8 hours ago, BhForce said:

Just a small quibble: Bhai Gurdas ji did not write any prose, only poetry. 

So rather than the way you phrase it above, it would be better to say: his doctrinal and metaphorical verses are separate from his historical ones. Both of them are written in poetry, though.

The key point (which @Sukhvirk1976 misses) is that the mere fact that a line is written in rhyme does not mean that is non-factual.

I stand corrected.

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This is my understanding so open to learning as sikh is always learning. I do have to break it down to share, took me while to contextualize everything so there is no contradiction everything can be reconciled properly.

Satguru Nanak/Impersonal from ultimate principle-essence/ bhramgyan/advait-non dual/shabad gyan perspective/viewpoint/aspect (Nanak Nirgun Nirankar)

IkOngkar Satgurparsad comes 523 times in sri guru granth sahib ji, its mangal but its just not a mangal, its essence teaching and ultimate meaning of Ikongkar (One non dual being)  satgurparsad which is sat(eternal) gur(chiatain-all prevading non dual consciousness) and anand(bliss)  realized by kirpa of internal(all pervading satguru) with or without form. There is only one.

From gurmat non dual/bhramgyan/gyan aspect- yugas nor avtars nor bodies nor mind (no object or subject) no separate soul/ perception of them exist independently, its constant one without second ultimate reality-akaal morat as there is no time and space in the backdrop ultimate reality which is LIVE PRESENT NOW always eternally present.

Satguru Nanak from devotional/bhagati/shabad aspect(Sargun)

Our eleven Guru's physical sargun saroop- Shabad Guru surat dhun chela along with our eleven physical guru's deh saroop, khalsa panth glorified via nine types of bhagti.

Since Satguru Nanak/Vahiguru were ultimately nirankar saroop which never changes, all pervading inner vahiguru/consciousness, there is no need for bhagats to come back in kalyug to get "mukhti" as they were given mukhti by universal satguru Nanak/vahiguru to begin with as per bani in sri guru granth sahib ji.

However, from historical context some of the bhagats came back incarnated as panj pyares and took amrit from Sri guru gobind singh ji to benefit human kind and be in the dharam.

The issue clearly becomes this gets turned into some sort of rule, gets boxed into some part of process-mukthi liberation recipe and used it as some sort of yard stick, then all the already mukht bhagats in previous yugas or before they had somehow to come back in physical sikhi fold- retake intiation in order to be mukht, thats clearly contary to gurmat and some what laughable from non dual- gurmat advait sat chit anand-satguru perspective as that would be totally undermining ultimate all prevading Satguru-self sustaining unchangeable-grace capacity to give mukhti to its bhagats during ages via various infinite ways/emanating ways-previous yug avtars their duties- when and where its required.

One has to make up their mind, do they acknowledge satguru being eternal all prevading or limit satguru into deh form - 5 shud elemental? What their actual position? Do they not beleive satguru in self illuminated nirankar roop can't do kirpa of bhagats in previous yugas via various non defined ways? or bhagats in previous yugas have to go through audorous conceptual process by divine to come back in sikhi physical path to get mukhti?


Screenshot attached from Japji sahib teeka by sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale

*Ultimate meaning of Nanak*

*Ikongkar Satgurparsad
*Gurmat is it non dual(advait) or dualistic(dvait-two)-more about non dualism-  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism

*Avtar metaphysics http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/9158-the-role-of-avatar-in-traditional-sikh-metaphsyics/

*Gurmat is anadi Gurmat is anadi.mp3

5a86efcbc45be_absolutemeaningofnanak.png.e3f5ba88a5a7364a6351328fb3fa1f54.png5a86f9931c4d5_ikongkarsatgurparsad.jpg.1c878d21071a6b2fc349949bc129e372.jpg

 

5a86efdb04d16_gurmatdvaitmattoradvaitmaat.jpg.7d1a6f8f0100732f1863bbcd37153a00.jpg

 

5a86f0fb2385c_yadayadaquote.PNG.6a3b49b60b086e7a1984c7f7b7585751.PNG

Edited by N30S1NGH

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10 hours ago, BhForce said:

Ah, that would actually be "the boat of the Sikhs is sunk".

and seena besheena  is chestnut traditions  ...prof goggle ne peg laa rakhea

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9 hours ago, BhForce said:

Where did you get this and who wrote it?

Unable to locate it now, it was from SA or an old post here. It was not attributed to anyone from memory (which I might add is flaky at the best of times)!

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19 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Bachittar Natak tells us for all the yugs there is only one Satguru.  Vishnu and his incarnations were never satguru and they came in previous yugs(ages).

 

Vaar 1 Pauri 49 Waheguru mantar

ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|

In Satyug, Visnu in the form of satigur Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

Line 1 

ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|

The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

Line 2 

ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।

taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|

In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

Line 3 

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ।

kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|

In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

Line 4

ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ ।

chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|

The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

Line 5 

ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|

When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

 

 

Shows how much you know....... let me guess..... Bhai Gurdas Ji was wrong?! 

Bachiittar natak is way too advanced for you to understand...

Edited by Mahakaal96

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2 hours ago, InderjitS said:

Unable to locate it now, it was from SA or an old post here. It was not attributed to anyone from memory (which I might add is flaky at the best of times)!

I can search on sa if i could find it, btw it be nice to see you on SA once and while..swing by sometime. :)

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26 minutes ago, N30S1NGH said:

I can search on sa if i could find it, btw it be nice to see you on SA once and while..swing by sometime. :)

You know I joined a while back no idea what my Id is but found the conversation too in depth for my meagre intelligence 😁

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5 hours ago, N30S1NGH said:

Since Satguru Nanak/Vahiguru were ultimately nirankar saroop which never changes, all pervading inner vahiguru/consciousness, there is no need for bhagats to come back in kalyug to get "mukhti" as they were given mukhti by universal satguru Nanak/vahiguru to begin with as per bani in sri guru granth sahib ji.

However, from historical context some of the bhagats came back incarnated as panj pyares and took amrit from Sri guru gobind singh ji to benefit human kind and be in the dharam.

This got me thinking. So we all know Guru Ji and Parmeshar are one and the same, so being timeless and eternally sat saroop are you saying that through some indirect route they were able to deliver saints providing they were not all contemporaries of Satguru Nanak Sahib? 

5 hours ago, N30S1NGH said:

The issue clearly becomes this gets turned into some sort of rule, gets boxed into some part of process-mukthi liberation recipe and used it as some sort of yard stick, then all the already mukht bhagats in previous yugas or before they had somehow to come back in physical sikhi fold- retake intiation in order to be mukht, thats clearly contary to gurmat and some what laughable from non dual- gurmat advait sat chit anand-satguru perspective as that would be totally undermining ultimate all prevading Satguru-self sustaining unchangeable-grace capacity to give mukhti to its bhagats during ages via various infinite ways/emanating ways-previous yug avtars their duties- when and where its required.

What was the process of Bhagats becoming mukht. Did they have to take Amrit, was it achieved through their own Guru's (something I will find hard to accept), where is this stated in Gurbani, how can we say another Guru is equal to Satguru?

Through limited searches we find that their is evidence and otherwise for Bhagats having been in Guru Ji's time. Meharbaan Janamsakhi states Bhagats had met Guru Nanak or Bhagat Bani book by Giani Gurdit Singh.

 

 

Edited by InderjitS

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59 minutes ago, InderjitS said:

This got me thinking. So we all know Guru Ji and Parmeshar are one and the same, so being timeless and eternally sat saroop are you saying that through some indirect route they were able to deliver saints providing they were not all contemporaries of Satguru Nanak Sahib? 

 

 

59 minutes ago, InderjitS said:

What was the process of Bhagats becoming mukht. Did they have to take Amrit, was it achieved through their own Guru's (something I will find hard to accept), where is this stated in Gurbani, how can we say another Guru is equal to Satguru?

Through limited searches we find that their is evidence and otherwise for Bhagats having been in Guru Ji's time. Meharbaan Janamsakhi states Bhagats had met Guru Nanak or Bhagat Bani book by Giani Gurdit Singh.

ਨਾਮਦੇਵ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਸਧਨਾ ਸੈਨੁ ਤਰੈ ॥
नामदेव कबीरु तिलोचनु सधना सैनु तरै ॥
Nāmḏev Kabīr ṯilocẖan saḏẖnā sain ṯarai.
Naam Dayv, Kabeer, Trilochan, Sadhana and Sain crossed over.

ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਸਰੈ ॥੨॥੧॥
कहि रविदासु सुनहु रे संतहु हरि जीउ ते सभै सरै ॥२॥१॥
Kahi Raviḏās sunhu re sanṯahu har jī▫o ṯe sabẖai sarai. ||2||1||
Says Ravi Daas, listen, O Saints, through the Dear Lord, all is accomplished. ||2||

Whats the process ? I guess we have to read bhagat bani and read their experiences, ultimately they gotten mukhti (realized their inner self-atma) through Internal all pervading nirgun Satguru Nanak nirankar/Vahiguru grace which is one and same. As we know all the bhagats were ultimately went from sargun upasana to nirgun upasana and were nirgun upasakhs based on gurbani. With nirgun upasana there is no middle men nor there is mantar/naam in overt sense its only turiya* gyan of one saroop/naam/inner force of Satguru eternal consciouness-kaival mukhti (No abhramic god giving ya smiling up in the sky or transmission)

aad aneel anaad anaahat jug jug eko vays || 

 

Turiya- https://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart87.htm

Edited by N30S1NGH
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