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Would A Transgender Amritdhari Sikh Be A Singh or Kaur?


TheeTurbanator
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This is my understanding so open to learning as sikh is always learning. I do have to break it down to share, took me while to contextualize everything so there is no contradiction everything can be reconciled properly.

Satguru Nanak/Impersonal from ultimate principle-essence/ bhramgyan/advait-non dual/shabad gyan perspective/viewpoint/aspect (Nanak Nirgun Nirankar)

IkOngkar Satgurparsad comes 523 times in sri guru granth sahib ji, its mangal but its just not a mangal, its essence teaching and ultimate meaning of Ikongkar (One non dual being)  satgurparsad which is sat(eternal) gur(chiatain-all prevading non dual consciousness) and anand(bliss)  realized by kirpa of internal(all pervading satguru) with or without form. There is only one.

From gurmat non dual/bhramgyan/gyan aspect- yugas nor avtars nor bodies nor mind (no object or subject) no separate soul/ perception of them exist independently, its constant one without second ultimate reality-akaal morat as there is no time and space in the backdrop ultimate reality which is LIVE PRESENT NOW always eternally present.

Satguru Nanak from devotional/bhagati/shabad aspect(Sargun)

Our eleven Guru's physical sargun saroop- Shabad Guru surat dhun chela along with our eleven physical guru's deh saroop, khalsa panth glorified via nine types of bhagti.

Since Satguru Nanak/Vahiguru were ultimately nirankar saroop which never changes, all pervading inner vahiguru/consciousness, there is no need for bhagats to come back in kalyug to get "mukhti" as they were given mukhti by universal satguru Nanak/vahiguru to begin with as per bani in sri guru granth sahib ji.

However, from historical context some of the bhagats came back incarnated as panj pyares and took amrit from Sri guru gobind singh ji to benefit human kind and be in the dharam.

The issue clearly becomes this gets turned into some sort of rule, gets boxed into some part of process-mukthi liberation recipe and used it as some sort of yard stick, then all the already mukht bhagats in previous yugas or before they had somehow to come back in physical sikhi fold- retake intiation in order to be mukht, thats clearly contary to gurmat and some what laughable from non dual- gurmat advait sat chit anand-satguru perspective as that would be totally undermining ultimate all prevading Satguru-self sustaining unchangeable-grace capacity to give mukhti to its bhagats during ages via various infinite ways/emanating ways-previous yug avtars their duties- when and where its required.

One has to make up their mind, do they acknowledge satguru being eternal all prevading or limit satguru into deh form - 5 shud elemental? What their actual position? Do they not beleive satguru in self illuminated nirankar roop can't do kirpa of bhagats in previous yugas via various non defined ways? or bhagats in previous yugas have to go through audorous conceptual process by divine to come back in sikhi physical path to get mukhti?


Screenshot attached from Japji sahib teeka by sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale

*Ultimate meaning of Nanak*

*Ikongkar Satgurparsad
*Gurmat is it non dual(advait) or dualistic(dvait-two)-more about non dualism-  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism

*Avtar metaphysics http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/9158-the-role-of-avatar-in-traditional-sikh-metaphsyics/

*Gurmat is anadi Gurmat is anadi.mp3

5a86efcbc45be_absolutemeaningofnanak.png.e3f5ba88a5a7364a6351328fb3fa1f54.png5a86f9931c4d5_ikongkarsatgurparsad.jpg.1c878d21071a6b2fc349949bc129e372.jpg

 

5a86efdb04d16_gurmatdvaitmattoradvaitmaat.jpg.7d1a6f8f0100732f1863bbcd37153a00.jpg

 

5a86f0fb2385c_yadayadaquote.PNG.6a3b49b60b086e7a1984c7f7b7585751.PNG

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19 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Bachittar Natak tells us for all the yugs there is only one Satguru.  Vishnu and his incarnations were never satguru and they came in previous yugs(ages).

 

Vaar 1 Pauri 49 Waheguru mantar

ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਵਾ ਵਿਸਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

satijugi satigur vaasadayv vavaa visanaa naamu japaavai|

In Satyug, Visnu in the form of satigur Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

Line 1 

ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

duaapari satigur haree krisan haahaa hari hari naamu japaavai|

The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

Line 2 

ਤੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ।

taytay satigur raam jee raaraa raam japay sukhu paavai|

In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

Line 3 

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ ।

kalijugi naanak gur gobind gagaa gobind naamu alaavai|

In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

Line 4

ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ ।

chaaray jaagay chahu jugee panchaain vichi jaai samaavai|

The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

Line 5 

ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ ।

chaaro achhar iku kari vaahaguroo japu mantr japaavai|

When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

 

 

Shows how much you know....... let me guess..... Bhai Gurdas Ji was wrong?! 

Bachiittar natak is way too advanced for you to understand...

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2 hours ago, InderjitS said:

Unable to locate it now, it was from SA or an old post here. It was not attributed to anyone from memory (which I might add is flaky at the best of times)!

I can search on sa if i could find it, btw it be nice to see you on SA once and while..swing by sometime. :)

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5 hours ago, N30S1NGH said:

Since Satguru Nanak/Vahiguru were ultimately nirankar saroop which never changes, all pervading inner vahiguru/consciousness, there is no need for bhagats to come back in kalyug to get "mukhti" as they were given mukhti by universal satguru Nanak/vahiguru to begin with as per bani in sri guru granth sahib ji.

However, from historical context some of the bhagats came back incarnated as panj pyares and took amrit from Sri guru gobind singh ji to benefit human kind and be in the dharam.

This got me thinking. So we all know Guru Ji and Parmeshar are one and the same, so being timeless and eternally sat saroop are you saying that through some indirect route they were able to deliver saints providing they were not all contemporaries of Satguru Nanak Sahib? 

5 hours ago, N30S1NGH said:

The issue clearly becomes this gets turned into some sort of rule, gets boxed into some part of process-mukthi liberation recipe and used it as some sort of yard stick, then all the already mukht bhagats in previous yugas or before they had somehow to come back in physical sikhi fold- retake intiation in order to be mukht, thats clearly contary to gurmat and some what laughable from non dual- gurmat advait sat chit anand-satguru perspective as that would be totally undermining ultimate all prevading Satguru-self sustaining unchangeable-grace capacity to give mukhti to its bhagats during ages via various infinite ways/emanating ways-previous yug avtars their duties- when and where its required.

What was the process of Bhagats becoming mukht. Did they have to take Amrit, was it achieved through their own Guru's (something I will find hard to accept), where is this stated in Gurbani, how can we say another Guru is equal to Satguru?

Through limited searches we find that their is evidence and otherwise for Bhagats having been in Guru Ji's time. Meharbaan Janamsakhi states Bhagats had met Guru Nanak or Bhagat Bani book by Giani Gurdit Singh.

 

 

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59 minutes ago, InderjitS said:

This got me thinking. So we all know Guru Ji and Parmeshar are one and the same, so being timeless and eternally sat saroop are you saying that through some indirect route they were able to deliver saints providing they were not all contemporaries of Satguru Nanak Sahib? 

 

 

59 minutes ago, InderjitS said:

What was the process of Bhagats becoming mukht. Did they have to take Amrit, was it achieved through their own Guru's (something I will find hard to accept), where is this stated in Gurbani, how can we say another Guru is equal to Satguru?

Through limited searches we find that their is evidence and otherwise for Bhagats having been in Guru Ji's time. Meharbaan Janamsakhi states Bhagats had met Guru Nanak or Bhagat Bani book by Giani Gurdit Singh.

ਨਾਮਦੇਵ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਸਧਨਾ ਸੈਨੁ ਤਰੈ ॥
नामदेव कबीरु तिलोचनु सधना सैनु तरै ॥
Nāmḏev Kabīr ṯilocẖan saḏẖnā sain ṯarai.
Naam Dayv, Kabeer, Trilochan, Sadhana and Sain crossed over.

ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਸਰੈ ॥੨॥੧॥
कहि रविदासु सुनहु रे संतहु हरि जीउ ते सभै सरै ॥२॥१॥
Kahi Raviḏās sunhu re sanṯahu har jī▫o ṯe sabẖai sarai. ||2||1||
Says Ravi Daas, listen, O Saints, through the Dear Lord, all is accomplished. ||2||

Whats the process ? I guess we have to read bhagat bani and read their experiences, ultimately they gotten mukhti (realized their inner self-atma) through Internal all pervading nirgun Satguru Nanak nirankar/Vahiguru grace which is one and same. As we know all the bhagats were ultimately went from sargun upasana to nirgun upasana and were nirgun upasakhs based on gurbani. With nirgun upasana there is no middle men nor there is mantar/naam in overt sense its only turiya* gyan of one saroop/naam/inner force of Satguru eternal consciouness-kaival mukhti (No abhramic god giving ya smiling up in the sky or transmission)

aad aneel anaad anaahat jug jug eko vays || 

 

Turiya- https://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart87.htm

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1 hour ago, N30S1NGH said:

 

 

ਨਾਮਦੇਵ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਸਧਨਾ ਸੈਨੁ ਤਰੈ ॥
नामदेव कबीरु तिलोचनु सधना सैनु तरै ॥
Nāmḏev Kabīr ṯilocẖan saḏẖnā sain ṯarai.
Naam Dayv, Kabeer, Trilochan, Sadhana and Sain crossed over.

ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਸੰਤਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਸਰੈ ॥੨॥੧॥
कहि रविदासु सुनहु रे संतहु हरि जीउ ते सभै सरै ॥२॥१॥
Kahi Raviḏās sunhu re sanṯahu har jī▫o ṯe sabẖai sarai. ||2||1||
Says Ravi Daas, listen, O Saints, through the Dear Lord, all is accomplished. ||2||

Whats the process ? I guess we have to read bhagat bani and read their experiences, ultimately they gotten mukhti (realized their inner self-atma) through Internal all pervading nirgun Satguru Nanak nirankar/Vahiguru grace which is one and same. As we know all the bhagats were ultimately went from sargun upasana to nirgun upasana and were nirgun upasakhs based on gurbani. With nirgun upasana there is no middle men nor there is mantar/naam in overt sense its only turiya* gyan of one saroop/naam/inner force of Satguru eternal consciouness-kaival mukhti (No abhramic god giving ya smiling up in the sky or transmission)

aad aneel anaad anaahat jug jug eko vays || 

 

Turiya- https://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart87.htm

In simple terms you're saying they became Mukht without physical presence of Satguru which in Gurbani as per my understanding is one and no other.

btw this requires a separate topic, it's not suitable with the heading

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5 minutes ago, InderjitS said:

In simple terms you're saying they became Mukht without physical presence of Satguru which in Gurbani as per my understanding is one and no other.

 

Yes exactly!. Sargun upasakh will get darshan of sargun vahiguru further blessing ensues four type of mukhti based on the desire of upasakh,  Satguru Nirgun upasakh gets realization of all pervading Nirgun-kaival mukhti(5th type)-turiya.

 

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