Would A Transgender Amritdhari Sikh Be A Singh or Kaur?

[BhForce]

5 hours ago, InderjitS said:

Came across this quote and it's apt for those that doubt Sikh history when it doesn't fit with their blinkered views.

ਕਿਨੀ ਅਫਸੋਸ ਵਾਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਲਿਖੇ ਇਤਿਹਾਸ ਤੇ ਯਕੀਨ ਨਹੀਂ, ਮਗਰ ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਮਗ਼ਰਿਬ ਤੋਂ ਮੁਤਾਸਿਰ ਹੋਇਆ ਫੋਕਾ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਕੁਝ ਕਹੈ ਦਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਅਸੀਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਰਚੇ ਹੋਏ ਇਤਿਹਾਸਿਕ ਗ੍ਰੰਥਾਂ ਅਤੇ ਸੀਨੇ ਬਸੀਨੇ ਤੋਂ ਚਲੀ ਆ ਰਹੀ ਪਰੰਪਰਾਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਰੱਦ ਕਰ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਹਾਂ| ਸਾਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਤੇ ਬਹਤ ਅਫਸੋਸ ਕਰਨਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ|ਇਸੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਤਾਂ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਇਨਾ ਬੇੜਾ ਗਰਕਿਆ ਹੈ|

Where did you get this and who wrote it?

[BhForce]

5 hours ago, Kira said:

there was nothing poetic about it, he literally said Guru Nanak Dev Ji melted into thin air.  Bhai Gurdas Ji's poetic verses are kept separate from his historical ones, you would know that if you read them.  The prose used here was literal, and the evidence is in the proverbial pudding as it describes the journey, the encounter and the delegation. 

Just a small quibble: Bhai Gurdas ji did not write any prose, only poetry. 

So rather than the way you phrase it above, it would be better to say: his doctrinal and metaphorical verses are separate from his historical ones. Both of them are written in poetry, though.

The key point (which @Sukhvirk1976 misses) is that the mere fact that a line is written in rhyme does not mean that is non-factual.

[BhForce]

4 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

aghirtghana is the biggest paap and atheists are so ungrateful for so much ....Vah mere Waheguru you give without end ...

ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਰੇ ਪਰਬਤਾਂ ਅਸਮਾਨ ਖਹੰਦੇ।

Naa Tisu Bhaaray Prabataan Asamaan Khahanday |

The sky-touching mountains also are not of much weight (than the ungrateful person).

 

ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਰੇ ਕੋਟ ਗੜ੍ਹ ਘਰਬਾਰ ਦਿਸੰਦੇ।

Naa Tisu Bhaaray Kot Garhh Ghar Baar Disanday |

The visible forts are also not as weighty as he (the ungrateful person) is;

 

ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਰੇ ਸਾਇਰਾਂ ਨਦ ਵਾਹ ਵਹੰਦੇ।

Naa Tisu Bhaaray Saairaan Nad Vaah Vahanday |

those oceans in which will the rivers merge are also not as heavy as he is;

 

ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਰੇ ਤਰੁਵਰਾਂ ਫਲ ਸੁਫਲ ਫਲੰਦੇ।

Naa Tisu Bhaaray Taruvaraan Fal Suphal Faladay |

the fruit laden trees are also not as heavy as he is

 

ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਰੇ ਜੀਅਜੰਤ ਅਣਗਣਤ ਫਿਰੰਦੇ।

Naa Tisu Bhaaray Jeea Jant Anaganat Firanday |

and nor those innumerable creatures are as heavy as he is.

 

ਭਾਰੇ ਭੁਈਂ ਅਕਿਰਤਘਣ ਮੰਦੀ ਹੂ ਮੰਦੇ ॥੮॥

Bhaaray Bhueen Akirataghan Mandee Hoo Manday |

In fact the ungrateful person is burden on earth and he is evil of evils.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩੫ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ 

[BhForce]

8 hours ago, N30S1NGH said:

Esoteric Amrit is also mentioned in indic literature-

asato ma sadgamaya
tamaso ma jyotirgamaya
mrtyorma amrtam gamaya
om shanti shanti shanti.

Lead me from the asat to the sat.
Lead me from darkness to light.
Lead me from death to immortality
Om Peace Peace Peace.

(Brhadaranyaka Upanishad — I.iii.28)

Brother, Gurbani explicitly mentions and accepts that Indian sages have been looking for Amrit, as your quotation also mentions a desire for Amrit. But Amrit is only to be found from the Guru:

ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਖੋਜਦੇ ਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

Sur Nar Mun Jan Anmrith Khojadhae S Anmrith Gur Thae Paaeiaa ||

The angelic beings and the silent sages search for the Ambrosial Nectar; this Amrit is obtained from the Guru.

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਅਨੰਦ (ਮਃ ੩) (੧੩):੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੧੮ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Raag Raamkali Guru Amar Das

 

The inner journey that you speak of is not possible without Satguru:

ਇਸੁ ਭਗਤੀ ਨੋ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਲੋਚਦੇ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਾਈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

Eis Bhagathee No Sur Nar Mun Jan Lochadhae Vin Sathigur Paaee N Jaae ||

The angels, humans and silent sages long for this devotional worship, but without the True Guru, it cannot be attained.

ਆਸਾ (ਮਃ ੩) ਅਸਟ (੨੭) ੨:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੨੫ ਪੰ. ੪ 
Raag Asa Guru Amar Das

 

It's true that the term "satguru" may have been used previous, but why does that matter? Most terms in Gurbani have been used before, they have specific meanings in Gurmat.

Anyway, what are you trying to say, that Guru Nanak ji is not Satguru?

Just to clarify, are you saying 

1) Guru Nanak ji is Satguru

2) Guru Nanak is a guru, but not Satguru

or

3) Nanak is not a guru, much less Satguru

?

[BhForce]

9 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

9 hours ago, Kira said:

There's wisdom in every religion, all the prophets who came before Satguru Nanak Dev Ji can take their followers far...but not to Sach Khand. Only with the help of a Satguru can one reach God, and the only Satguru around (ever) has been th Shabad Guru in the form of Guru Granth Sahib Ji now.

So by your own logic guru nanak dev ji didn't reach sach khand 

Lol

@Kira may have worded things in a way in which a non-Sikh or a newbie like @GurjantGnostic would be confused, but anybody who claims to be a Sikh should know what he's saying regarding the nature of Satguru.

God created the Shabad, it is another form of God. It's also the Guru, the Satguru.

As Satguru, the Shabad allows mortals to meet God. You can't meet God without the Shabad.

In 1469 AD, the Shabad manifested as Nanak in Rai Boie ki Talwandi.

The Shabad has a concentrated form (Naam), and an expanded form (Gurbani or Guru Granth Sahib).

 

Kira did not misstate the Sikh position: He used the word "now", which says that the Guru is now Guru Granth Sahib ji. And Guru Granth Sahib ji is the manifestation of Shabad.

[BhForce]

8 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

It also means you believe in the exclusivity of knowledge and only those party to said knowledge are able to find truth.. Which sounds remarkably like brahmanism.

Are you trying to state a truism? Only those who have a piece of knowledge have that knowledge?

Anyway, if you're trying to ask whether Sikhs believe that without the Guru there is lack of knowledge, yes, Sikhs do believe that:

Did you listen to Asa di Vaar this morning?

ਮਹਲਾ ੨ ॥

Mehalaa 2 ||

Second Mehl:

ਆਸਾ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ: (ਮਃ ੨) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅੰਗ ੪੬੩ 

Shabad ViewVerse View

 

ਜੇ ਸਉ ਚੰਦਾ ਉਗਵਹਿ ਸੂਰਜ ਚੜਹਿ ਹਜਾਰ ॥

Jae So Chandhaa Ougavehi Sooraj Charrehi Hajaar ||

If a hundred moons were to rise, and a thousand suns appeared,

ਏਤੇ ਚਾਨਣ ਹੋਦਿਆਂ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰ ॥੨॥

Eaethae Chaanan Hodhiaaan Gur Bin Ghor Andhhaar ||2||

Even with such light, there would still be pitch darkness without the Guru. ||2||

ਆਸਾ ਵਾਰ (ਮਃ ੧) (੧) ਸ. (੨) ੨:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੪੬੩ ਪੰ. ੧ 
Raag Asa Guru Angad Dev

 

Also:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਅੰਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥

Sathigur Baajhahu Andhh Gubaar ||

Without the True Guru, there is only pitch darkness.

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਸਤ ਵਾਰ (ਮਃ ੩) (੨) ੧੦:੩ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੮੪੩ ਪੰ. ੨ 
Raag Bilaaval Guru Amar Das

 

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਸਮਝ ਨ ਹੋਵੀ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਦਬਿਆ ਛਾਪੈ ॥

Sathigur Baajhahu Samajh N Hovee Sabh Jag Dhabiaa Shhaapai ||

Without the True Guru, there is no understanding. The whole world is buried under its nightmare.

ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੈ ਬਿਲਲਾਤਉ ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਪੈ ॥

Karan Palaav Karai Bilalaatho Bin Gur Naam N Jaapai ||

The mortal tries all sorts of things, and weeps and wails, but without the Guru, he does not know the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਮਲਾਰ (ਮਃ ੧) ਅਸਟ. (੪) ੪:੩ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੭੫ ਪੰ. ੪ 
Raag Malar Guru Nanak Dev

[BhForce]

9 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

9 hours ago, Kira said:

of course Naam is required. But there was a reason why Charan Pahul was started, one can sit here and recite bani all we wish, but we require a Satguru to take us to God. Satguru is Akaal Purkh, by drinking their amrit we're becoming theirs and theirs alone. 

So you believe the ceremony itself is transformational, easy peasy... Interesting seems contradictory to the overall principles of sikhi.. I never had you down as someone who would advocate rituals as a path to enlightenment.. I'm genuinely surprised 

The Amrit ceremony is transformational if your mind (mann) is earnestly devoted to Satguru.

ਮਨੁ ਬੇਚੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥

Man Baechai Sathigur Kai Paas ||

One who sells his mind to the True Guru

ਤਿਸੁ ਸੇਵਕ ਕੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਰਾਸਿ ॥

This Saevak Kae Kaaraj Raas ||

- that humble servant's affairs are resolved.

ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੮) ੨:੬ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੮੬ ਪੰ. ੧੯ 
Raag Gauri Sukhmanee Guru Arjan Dev

 

In an Amrit ceremony, the seeker asks for the Naam, and is given the teachings of the Guru:

ਮੈ ਦੀਜੈ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥

Mai Dheejai Naam Nivaas Anthar Saanth Hoe ||

Please, bless me with a home in Your Name; may my inner self be at peace.

ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਤਿ ਦੇਇ ॥੮॥੩॥੫॥

Gun Gaavai Naanak Dhaas Sathigur Math Dhaee ||8||3||5||

May slave Nanak sing Your Glorious Praises; O True Guru, please share the Teachings with me. ||8||3||5||

ਸੂਹੀ (ਮਃ ੧) ਅਸਟ. (੫) ੮:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੭੫੩ ਪੰ. ੩ 
Raag Suhi Guru Nanak Dev

 

If you're not earnest, i.e., if you're just doing it on a fake basis, it has no value.

Don't try to put up a strawman argument of people taking Amrit with no inner feeling whatsoever.

[BhForce]

8 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

They don't overlap lol try researching going beyond the lazy tropes you want to propagate.. You can shout and bad mouth me as much as you like but you will not find one scholar of sikh history who would agree with you.. Not one 

Quite a tall claim for you to make since you would have no way of having read Sikh history since you can't ready Punjabi. 

[Sukhvirk1976]

3 hours ago, BhForce said:

Just a small quibble: Bhai Gurdas ji did not write any prose, only poetry. 

So rather than the way you phrase it above, it would be better to say: his doctrinal and metaphorical verses are separate from his historical ones. Both of them are written in poetry, though.

The key point (which @Sukhvirk1976 misses) is that the mere fact that a line is written in rhyme does not mean that is non-factual.

Just a mere point,  appreciate the fact that one needs to shudh tho

[Kira]

8 hours ago, BhForce said:

Just a small quibble: Bhai Gurdas ji did not write any prose, only poetry. 

So rather than the way you phrase it above, it would be better to say: his doctrinal and metaphorical verses are separate from his historical ones. Both of them are written in poetry, though.

The key point (which @Sukhvirk1976 misses) is that the mere fact that a line is written in rhyme does not mean that is non-factual.

I stand corrected.