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5akaalsingh

Ramgharia Gurudwara Leeds doing Hindu Vishwakarma rituals

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10 hours ago, 5akaalsingh said:

 

 

Was this posted by "Sikh Youth Birmingham" as an example of proper Sikh maryada, or as an example of what not to do?

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45 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Was this posted by "Sikh Youth Birmingham" as an example of proper Sikh maryada, or as an example of what not to do?

Like I said maybe they shouldn't have been doing Aarti, not in the Gurdwara anyway.

But the picture in itself shouldn't be a problem. Mahapurkhs have been known to keep pictures of Devi Devte, they weren't allergic to imagery, especially imagery you could say that makes up "Dharam" as a whole. Maybe not the picture shown in the video, but such imagery was commonplace and is part of our heritage. As is evident from the small selection of pictures I posted.

The level of Hinduphobia amongst our people borders on idiocy.

Edited by MrDoaba
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11 hours ago, 5akaalsingh said:

 

Gurbani says this is moorti puja and its wrong no matter where it is done.  These people are completely blind to the teachings of Gurbani.  

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8 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

This is nothing new. I don't why people get so shocked by it. Yeah it probably shouldn't happen at the Gurdwara but what's the big deal? It's just Aarti, which can be done of saints, elders, Gurdevs. It's not the same as doing aarti of Guru Sahib. Vishwakarma is patron saint of craftsmen/labourers.

It's downstairs anyway.

Brother, the reason we (or at least, some Sikhs) do Aarti of Guru Sahib is because we worship Guru Sahib. The reason it's a "big deal" is because it's spiritual adultery.

Even if it were accepted that you can do aarti of a saint or elder, they are not doing that. They are not doing Aarti of Lord Vishwakarma, but rather of a picture of Vishwakarma, which sets them up for the spiritual transgression of idol worship.

Guru Nanak Dev ji on idol worship:

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥

Salok Mehalaa 1 ||

ਸਾਰੰਗ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ: (ਮਃ ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅੰਗ ੧੨੪੦ 

ਘਰਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਭਾ ਨਾਲਿ ॥

In your home, is the Lord God, along with all your other gods.

ਪੂਜ ਕਰੇ ਰਖੈ ਨਾਵਾਲਿ ॥

You wash your stone gods and worship them.

ਕੁੰਗੂ ਚੰਨਣੁ ਫੁਲ ਚੜਾਏ ॥

You offer saffron, sandalwood and flowers.

 

ਪੈਰੀ ਪੈ ਪੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਮਨਾਏ ॥

Falling at their feet, you try so hard to appease them.

 

ਮਾਣੂਆ ਮੰਗਿ ਮੰਗਿ ਪੈਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਖਾਇ ॥

Begging, begging from other people, you get things to wear and eat.

ਅੰਧੀ ਕੰਮੀ ਅੰਧ ਸਜਾਇ ॥

For your blind deeds, you will be blindly punished.

ਭੁਖਿਆ ਦੇਇ ਨ ਮਰਦਿਆ ਰਖੈ ॥

Your idol does not feed the hungry, or save the dying.

ਅੰਧਾ ਝਗੜਾ ਅੰਧੀ ਸਥੈ ॥੧॥

The blind assembly argues in blindness. ||1||

ਸਾਰੰਗ ਵਾਰ (ਮਃ ੪) (੯) ਸ. (੧) ੧:੮ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੪੧ ਪੰ. ੨ 
Raag Sarang Guru Nanak Dev

 

Guru Arjan Dev ji in Raag Bharo:

ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

Mehala 5 ||

ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਕਹਤੇ ਦੇਵ ॥

Those who call a stone their god

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ ॥

Their service is useless.

ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕੀ ਪਾਂਈ ਪਾਇ ॥

Those who fall at the feet of a stone god

ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਘਾਲ ਅਜਾਂਈ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥

- their work is wasted in vain. ||1||

 

The people who do this (idol worship) will sink in the worldly ocean:

ਕਬੀਰ ਪਾਹਨੁ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥

Kabeer, someone sets up a stone idol and all the world worships it as the Lord.

ਇਸ ਭਰਵਾਸੇ ਜੋ ਰਹੇ ਬੂਡੇ ਕਾਲੀ ਧਾਰ ॥੧੩੬॥

Those who hold to this belief will be drowned in the river of darkness. ||136||

ਸਲੋਕ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) (੧੩੬):੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੭੧ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Salok Bhagat Kabir

 

 

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1 hour ago, BhForce said:

Brother, the reason we (or at least, some Sikhs) do Aarti of Guru Sahib is because we worship Guru Sahib. The reason it's a "big deal" is because it's spiritual adultery.

Even if it were accepted that you can do aarti of a saint or elder, they are not doing that. They are not doing Aarti of Lord Vishwakarma, but rather of a picture of Vishwakarma, which sets them up for the spiritual transgression of idol worship.

Fair enough. While I'm in agreement that idol worship is not part of Sikhi, I believe the tuks you have posted have been posted out of context here.

The bani above is referring to those whose spritual mode of worship is only idol worship. Those who think that Parmeshwar resides only in the idol. Those who have no other forms of worship and still think they are saved by doing puja of a pathar/image. That's not really what's happening in the video (I don't think so anyway).

Do bear in mind I'm not completely justifying what they're doing. I would need to know more details before I could personally comment what side of the fence this lands on. For example, if this is a regular thing or only done on a certain day i.e. Vishwakarma Day etc, what they believe about Vishwakarma and what he represents for them, and what their intentions are as well as what their sharda and bhaavna is, in performing this Aarti? And of course their maksad.

As I always say, things are rarely black and white.

 

Edited by MrDoaba
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10 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

This is nothing new. I don't why people get so shocked by it. Yeah it probably shouldn't happen at the Gurdwara but what's the big deal? It's just Aarti, which can be done of saints, elders, Gurdevs. It's not the same as doing aarti of Guru Sahib. Vishwakarma is patron saint of craftsmen/labourers.

It's downstairs anyway.

More on spiritual adultery. This is from Vaar Suhi by Guru Amar Dass ji, translation by the Nirmalas, a traditional Sikh order in the Faridkot Teeka:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ 
ਵਾਰ ਸੂਹੀ ਕੀ ਸਲੋਕਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥ 
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਸੇ ਜੀਵ ਕਾ ਵਿਛੋੜੇ ਅਰੁ ਮਿਲਾਪ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰੁ ਦੇਖਾਵਤੇ ਹੂਏ ਵਾਰ ਅੁਚਾਰਨ 
ਕਰਤੇ ਹੈਣ॥ 
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮ ੩ ॥ 
ਸੂਹੈ ਵੇਸਿ ਦੋਹਾਗਂੀ ਪਰ ਪਿਰੁ ਰਾਵਣ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
ਛੁਟੜ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਕੀ ਨਿਆਈ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਮੇਸਰ ਸੇ ਬੇਮੁਖ ਹੈਣ ਸੂਹੇ ਵੇਸ ਵਿਸੋਣ ਮੇਣ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਕੇ 
(ਪਰੁ ਪਿਰ ਰਾਵਣ ਜਾਇ) ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਤੋਣ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਨੇਣ ਜਾਤਾ ਹੈ॥ 
ਪਿਰੁ ਛੋਡਿਆ ਘਰਿ ਆਪਣੈ ਮੋਹੀ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥ 
(ਪਿਰੁ) ਪਤੀ ਜੋ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਸੋ (ਘਰਿ) ਅਪਨੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਮੈਣ ਛੋਡਿਆ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਦੂਜੇ ਭਾਵ ਮੈਣ 
ਬੁਧੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਗਈ ਹੈ॥ 
ਮਿਠਾ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਖਾਇਆ ਬਹੁ ਸਾਦਹੁ ਵਧਿਆ ਰੋਗੁ ॥ 
(ਮਿਠਾ) ਭਾਵ ਸੁਖ ਰੂਪ ਕਰਕੈ ਬਿਸੋਣ ਕੋ ਭੋਗਾ ਥਾ ਬਿਸੇ ਰਸੋਣ ਸੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਰੋਗੁ ਵਧ 
ਗਿਆ॥ 
ਸੁਧੁ ਭਤਾਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਛੋਡਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਲਗਾ ਜਾਇ ਵਿਜੋਗੁ ॥ 
ਸੁਧ ਭਰਤਾ ਜੋ ਹਰੀ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਛੋਡਿਆ ਹੈ ਫਿਰ ਜਨਮ ਕਰ ਵਿਛੋੜਾ ਹੀ ਲਾਗ ਜਾਤਾ ਹੈ॥ 
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੁ ਪਲਟਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਸਾਜਿ ਸੀਗਾਰਿ ॥ 
ਜੋ ਗੁਰੋਣ ਕੇ ਸਨਮੁਖ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ ਤਿਸਨੇ ਸੂਹਾ ਵੇਸ ਅੁਤਾਰ ਕੇ ਮਜੀਠਾ ਵੇਸੁ ਬਦਲਿਆ ਹੈ 
ਭਾਵ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰੀ ਹੈ ਔ ਸਾਧਨ ਰੂਪ ਸਿੰਗਾਰੁ (ਸਾਜਿ) ਬਨਾ ਕਰ ਹਰੀ ਮੈਣ ਰਾਤੀ ਹੈ॥ 
ਸਹਜਿ ਸਚੁ ਪਿਰੁ ਰਾਵਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਅੁਰ ਧਾਰਿ ॥ 
ਹਰੀ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੋ ਰਿਦੇ ਮੈਣ ਧਾਰ ਕੇ ਸੁਖ ਰੂਪੁ ਪਾਰੇ ਕੇ ਆਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਸੁਭਾਵਕ ਹੀ ਭੋਗਾ 
ਹੈ॥ 
ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰੀ ਸਦਾ ਸੁੋਹਾਗਂਿ ਆਪਿ ਮੇਲੀ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ॥ 
ਸੋ ਆਗਾਕਾਰੀ ਹੈ ਅਰ ਵਹੁ ਆਪ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਨੇ ਮੇਲ ਲਈ ਹੈ ਇਸ ਤੇ ਓਹੁ ਸਦਾ 
ਸੁਹਾਗਂਿ ਹੈ॥ 
ਨਾਨਕ ਪਿਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਦਾ ਸੁੋਹਾਗਂਿ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ 
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੈਣ ਜਿਸਨੇ ਹਰੀ ਰੂਪ ਸਜ਼ਚਾ ਭਰਤਾ ਪਾਯਾ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਜੀਵ ਰੂਪ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ 
ਸਦਾ ਹੀ ਸੁਹਾਗਂਿ ਹੈ॥੧॥ 

 

Like a woman separated from her husband goes to ravish (be ravished by) other men, the man who turns away from Parmesar goes to serve devis and devtas.

She has forsaken the Husband (Waheguru) in her heart and has been ensnared with duja bhav.

She thinks it to be sweet, and eats it with relish, increasing the disease.

She has abandoned the pure Husband and suffers separation.

The one who is faithful to the Guru does devotional worship of Waheguru and embellishes herself being in God.

Enshrining the name of Waheguru in her heart she obtains bliss.

Obedient, she is always in marital bliss and the Creator Himself has allowed her to meet Him.

Guru Nanak Dev ji says that whoever has found the true Husband, she is the true holder of marital bliss.

 

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12 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

This is nothing new. I don't why people get so shocked by it. Yeah it probably shouldn't happen at the Gurdwara but what's the big deal? It's just Aarti, which can be done of saints, elders, Gurdevs. It's not the same as doing aarti of Guru Sahib. Vishwakarma is patron saint of craftsmen/labourers.

It's downstairs anyway.

I would like to humbly say to any Ramgarhia Sikhs reading this that you have been blessed to have knowledge of Satguru. After having obtained Gian of the Guru, why would you ever need to pray to or worship lower deities? Bhai Gurdas ji refers to these lower deities in his Kabits as Aaan Dev (other deities):

ਕਉਡਾ ਪੈਸਾ ਰੁਪਈਆ ਸੁਨਈਆ ਕੋ ਬਨਜ ਕਰੈ ਰਤਨ ਪਾਰਖੁ ਹੋਇ ਜਉਹਰੀ ਕਹਾਵਈ ।

Kaudaa Paisaa Roupaeeaa Sounaeeaa Ko Banaj Karai , Ratan Paarakhu Hoi Jauharee Kahaavaee ।

Just as one starts dealing in shells in the beginning, then in money, gold coins and then becomes evaluator of diamonds and precious stones. He is then called a jeweller. 

ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ : ਕਬਿੱਤ ੪੭੯ ਪੰ. ੧

 

ਜਉਹਰੀ ਕਹਾਇ ਪੁਨ ਕਉਡਾ ਕੋ ਬਨਜੁ ਕਰੈ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਨ ਮੈ ਪਤਸਿਟਾ ਘਟਾਵਈ ।

Jauharee Kahaai Poun Kaudaa Ko Banaju Karai , Panch Paravaan Mai Patasitaa Ghataavaee ।

But after becoming famous as a jeweller, one starts dealing in shells, he loses his respect among the elite people. 

ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ : ਕਬਿੱਤ ੪੭੯ ਪੰ. ੨

 

ਆਨ ਦੇਵ ਸੇਵ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਕੋ ਸੇਵਕ ਹੁਇ ਲੋਕ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਬਿਖੈ ਊਚ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਵਈ ।

Aan Dayv Sayv Gurdayv Ko Sayvak Hui , Lok Paralok Bikhai Ooch Padu Paavaee ।

Similarly, if a follower of some god comes into the service of True Guru, he acquires high status in this and the world beyond. 

ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ : ਕਬਿੱਤ ੪੭੯ ਪੰ. ੩

 

ਛਾਡਿ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਸੇਵ ਆਨ ਦੇਵ ਸੇਵਕ ਹੁਇ ਨਿਹਫਲ ਜਨਮੁ ਕਪੂਤ ਹੁਇ ਹਸਾਵਈ ॥੪੭੯॥

Chhaadi Gurdayv Sayv Aan Dayv Sayvak Hui , Nihadhal Janamu Kapoot Hui Hasaavaee ॥479॥

But if someone leaves the service of the True Guru, and becomes a follower of some other god, then he wastes away his human life and he is laughed at by others being known as a bad son.  (479)

ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ : ਕਬਿੱਤ ੪੭੯ ਪੰ. ੪

It is one thing for people who are just starting on the path of spirituality to worship various devtas. But when you, by the Grace of the Guru, come to know about Satguru, you would never go back. All of us have been blessed to have born in the house of Guru Nanak ji. We have no need to devolve to a lower state.

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One thing I dont want Sikhs to do is become like muslim Idol breakers nor like Christians destroy the culture of the people. Muslim invaders destroyed beautiful art and temples because fear of idol worship. They forced ppl to convert and these ppl instead added their own version to islam of worshipping ancestors, graves, pirs etc.. Education is better than force. People will leave the idols themselves or turn them.into art. 

Visvhwakarma has been part of the craft/laborers culture for a long time. Many carpenters pray to him before starting any work. Sadly even some sikhs. However I also know carpenter Sikhs that have replaced the mangal to viswakarma with benti to satguru. 

Also many sikhs have not given up caste names, caste pride, nor caste identity lorhi, bhangra, preference for male sons. And other cultural practices and some are against the teachings of sikhi, yet we expect other ppl to promptly do so. And try to force them to do it now.

Also i just thought of a solution to the caste problem. We need to keep last names or at least know them. So we know our family history and background and dont marry people with same last names. But we could try not to teach our kids or tell other people what caste we are. Also most kids find it hard to tell  someones caste from a last name unless the last name is common. But other castes especially in india are adoptig those common high caste names..lol. its possible casteism will be eradicated esp in the west as ppl will have to just take a person word that yes im this caste.

 

Edited by Not2Cool2Argue

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11 minutes ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

One thing I dont want Sikhs to do is become like muslim Idol breakers nor like Christians destroy the culture of the people. Muslim invaders destroyed beautiful art and temples because fear of idol worship. They forced ppl to convert and these ppl instead added their own version to islam of worshipping ancestors, graves, pirs etc.. Education is better than force. People will leave the idols themselves or turn them.into art. 

Visvhwakarma has been part of the craft/laborers culture for a long time. Many carpenters pray to him before starting any work. Sadly even some sikhs. However I also know carpenter Sikhs that have replaced the mangal to viswakarma with benti to satguru. 

Also many sikhs have not given up caste names, caste pride, nor caste identity lorhi, bhangra, preference for male sons. And other cultural practices and some are against the teachings of sikhi, yet we expect other ppl to promptly do so. And try to force them to do it now.

Also i just thought of a solution to the caste problem. We need to keep last names or at least know them. So we know our family history and background and dont marry people with same last names. But we could try not to teach our kids or tell other people what caste we are. Also most kids find it hard to tell  someones caste from a last name unless the last name is common. But other castes especially in india are adoptig those common high caste names..lol. its possible casteism will be eradicated esp in the west as ppl will have to just take a person word that yes im this caste.

 

jatts had shrines too to ancestors if they can abandon those and remove them from their fields because they have gained gian from Guru ji why not others . It is not destroying anyone's culture just abandoning the emptiness for fruitful endeavours . Also if these people are so desperate why not take their pooja to a hindu temple . Since when is it acceptable for the court/residence of a king to be usurped for the praises of some other person ??  It's is a slippery slope which will end with Mahant's murtis and bhut being replaced in our Gurdwarey

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It's strange that they call themselves Ramgharia sikhs but do more tarkhan/lohaar/carpentar rituals.

Did Ramgharia misl actually do these rituals?

It's also strange that it's also "Ramgharia" sikhs easily recognizable with their surnames are the forefront of the "you shouldn't believe in caste" argument and yet they do all this caste and separate gurdwara stuff?

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9 minutes ago, ipledgeblue said:

It's strange that they call themselves Ramgharia sikhs but do more tarkhan/lohaar/carpentar rituals.

Did Ramgharia misl actually do these rituals?

It's also strange that it's also "Ramgharia" sikhs easily recognizable with their surnames are the forefront of the "you shouldn't believe in caste" argument and yet they do all this caste and separate gurdwara stuff?

Come on, you're being controversial now haha. You clearly know it's a matter of semantics.

Your last point has some truth.

Edited by MrDoaba

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2 hours ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

One thing I dont want Sikhs to do is become like muslim Idol breakers nor like Christians destroy the culture of the people. Muslim invaders destroyed beautiful art and temples because fear of idol worship. They forced ppl to convert and these ppl instead added their own version to islam of worshipping ancestors, graves, pirs etc.. Education is better than force. People will leave the idols themselves or turn them.into art. 

Visvhwakarma has been part of the craft/laborers culture for a long time. Many carpenters pray to him before starting any work. Sadly even some sikhs. However I also know carpenter Sikhs that have replaced the mangal to viswakarma with benti to satguru. 

Also many sikhs have not given up caste names, caste pride, nor caste identity lorhi, bhangra, preference for male sons. And other cultural practices and some are against the teachings of sikhi, yet we expect other ppl to promptly do so. And try to force them to do it now.

Also i just thought of a solution to the caste problem. We need to keep last names or at least know them. So we know our family history and background and dont marry people with same last names. But we could try not to teach our kids or tell other people what caste we are. Also most kids find it hard to tell  someones caste from a last name unless the last name is common. But other castes especially in india are adoptig those common high caste names..lol. its possible casteism will be eradicated esp in the west as ppl will have to just take a person word that yes im this caste.

 

That was already a thing, Guru Ji told us to remember our family name and that's it. Only for marriage purposes.

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2 minutes ago, InderjitS said:

Have they been pesh?

Lolllllll!!

Benti - please stop taking all the pesh jokes. Share...it's the Sikh way.

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2 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

Lolllllll!!

Benti - please stop taking all the pesh jokes. Share...it's the Sikh way.

I wasnt taking the pesh?

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    • The bigger the difference in height, the more odd you will look together, and you might not feel comfortable with a well-below height partner
    • https://uk.yahoo.com/news/conmen-jailed-92-year-old-victim-plays-game-lures-arrests-084708670.html
    • but he also says later that if the husband becomes nastik a wife has the right to disassociate herself from him .
    • Agree with the fact that Talaq is not compatible with Sikhi. Even the word comes from Muslim lands. However, I think you paint with too broad a brush when you call divorce an "abrahamic thing". Christianity doesn't allow divorce, except for just a couple of specified situations: Jesus said:  He said to them, “It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery.”[a] Matthew 19 Marriage is seen as a holy sacrament in Christianity. By contrast, there is nothing holy about marriage in Islam. It is merely a worldly contract, and divorce is explicitly allowed in the Koran.
    • I don't totally believe this. Yes leave the bad influences but most shastardhari rehit is still kept in India, and you will see the pooran gursikhs get together in Anandpur Sahib on Vaisakhi and Hola Mohalla. Yes you can see them trying hard here in the west, and there are those who have kept full bana even with some shastars, but still something is missing from being all-rounder pooran gursikh compared to the ladliyaa faujan in India.
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