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Amritdharis marrying hair-cut spouses - <banned word filter activated> Jagmeet Singh ?

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If you do the dating does it matter who you do it with? Dating and grihast Jeevan is mostly incompatible. The girlfriend boyfriend partnership delays people from partaking in grihast, there is no ceremony for this type of partnership such as ceremony of Anand Karaj. It also encourages ex partners whereas before our community looked badly at someone who had been divorced.

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Sangato, 

Politician : A person who acts in a manipulative and devious way, typically to gain advancement within an organization. He/She is the person who works for you. We pay their salaries. He/She works for you. They never should be the role model for anyone as politics is dirty no matter what/where/when. Jagmeet is a simple politician who will decide everything that is best for his political life. He is no different than any other gora/kala politicians. He represents Sikh community social matters and that is good for us. He represents us politically and he does his job good. Respect him for that ! HOWEVER, He is not our religious leader nor we should ever ask his input in religious matters. What he does or doesn't in his personal is his and not ours. Amritdhari marrying amritdhari is one of our main rule in our religious society. Those who don't follow are the ones at the fault. Don't protect someone who made or is making a religious mistake. 

 

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13 hours ago, LifeIsBeautiful said:

Speaking as a mona kid who was born in Canada

what does your hair cutting have to do with this topic?  Unless you are saying you are a better match for jagmeet Singh fiance since both of you cut hair.  Then I fully agree with you.

Who he marries is none of your guys concern.

This public news of who is his wife is what an amritdhari shall not do.  This is what people have written about and for some reason you are very bothered by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji teaching.  

Honestly I goto the gurdwara here all the time and having jagmeet in power shows parents their kid could keep kesh too. I know if i would have a kid, i would keep his kesh.

This actually lowers the status of Singhs.  Jagmeet Singh pick for a fiance is a disgrace on Singhs image.  Now we will have people saying, look even the amritdhari singhs want women with hair cuts and dress promiscuously. This being one reason we will strongly condemn his act.  

Since Jagmeet Singh is in politics.  He should be called to Sri Akal Takht sahib to answer for his mistake.  Parcharaks actions are highlighted and some are called to Sri Akal Takht sahib for their mistakes.  In the same way Jagmeet Singh should be summoned before Sri Akal Takht sahib for his mistake.

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18 hours ago, LifeIsBeautiful said:

To jigsaw singh, judge not ye be judged. Honestly who made you god to judge everyone. 

Could you have bothered to quote from Gurbani, bro? As opposed from the Bible?

18 hours ago, LifeIsBeautiful said:

Honestly I goto the gurdwara here all the time and having jagmeet in power shows parents their kid could keep kesh too. I know if i would have a kid, i would keep his kesh.

Good on you, man.

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5 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Could you have bothered to quote from Gurbani, bro? As opposed from the Bible?

Truth is truth, but yes a suitable Gurabni quote would be more fitting. 

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On 08/02/2018 at 6:36 AM, BhForce said:

evangelism/ɪˈvan(d)ʒ(ə)lɪz(ə)m/

noun
  1. the spreading of the Christian gospel by public preaching or personal witness.

By that definition, no, Sikhi does not promote spreading of the Christian gospel. But if you mean "spreading of Sikhi by public preaching or personal witness", yes it does promote that:

ਆਪਿ ਜਪਹੁ, ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵਹੁ ॥  (p290)

Recite yourself, and cause others to recite the Name.

What is your definition of "evangelism"?

How disingenuous! Seriously.. Evangelism is not just related to the bible! 

 

You took the first line from the online definition what about "

zealous advocacy or support of a particular cause." 

 

 

On 08/02/2018 at 6:41 AM, BhForce said:

Yes, Sikhi does promote discrimination. Have you read Gurbani, bro?

 

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ   
 
ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਦਾਸ ਸਿਉ ਸਾਕਤ ਨਹੀ ਸੰਗੁ  
The Lord's servant does not associate with the faithless cynic. 
 

ਓਹੁ ਬਿਖਈ ਓਸੁ ਰਾਮ ਕੋ ਰੰਗੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ  
One is in the clutches of vice, while the other is in love with the Lord. ||1||Pause|| 

p198

And there we have it.. I am shocked at your assertion that sikhi promotes discrimination.. Really.. How can you resolve nirankaar, nirbhau, nirvaar as being discriminatory 

Seriously 

 

 

 

Faithless cynic indeed 

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Jagmeet Singh has a lot of respect from newcomers, old timers, kids.. I think some of you need to be ashamed of yourself, the guy is doing great things for our Quam, for Canada and being a role model for youth.

 

I think this post is one example of us 

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2 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

How disingenuous! Seriously.. Evangelism is not just related to the bible! 

I did nothing disingenuous. I did not go searching for an obscure definition to make my point. 

The search engine that almost everyone (91%) of people use is Google. Plug "evangelism" into Google, and you get the definition I posted:

evangelism/ɪˈvan(d)ʒ(ə)lɪz(ə)m/

noun

the spreading of the Christian gospel by public preaching or personal witness.

Of 10 search results on the page (excluding Google's own definition), all 10 (including the oldest university in the English world--Oxford) have a Christian meaning for evangelism. Only one has a non-Christian meaning from the search result page. Hence, a Christian meaning of evangelism is entirely reasonable, and is not disingenuous by any means.

Oh, and by the way, I checked this on a number of Google websites, including the US site (google.com), and the UK site (google.co.uk).

As if this wasn't sufficient, I went ahead and allowed for a non-Christian meaning of evangelism in my post:

Quote

But if you mean "spreading of Sikhi by public preaching or personal witness",  ...

The entire rest of the Sangat can check that in my post here.

So who is being disingenuous?

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3 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

zealous advocacy or support of a particular cause.

OK, if that's the definition you want to use, then fine.

You claim that Sikhi prohibits evangelism, i.e., prohibits "zealous advocacy or support of a particular cause". The cause here being Sikhi  itself, I presume.

So, what are you trying to say? That it prohibits

1. zealous advocacy of Sikhi

2. (non-zealous) advocacy of Sikhi

3. zealous support of Sikhi

4. (non-zealous) support of Sikhi

So even supporting Sikhi is not allowed by Sikhi? That's nuts. Is support of Islam allowed by Sikhi? I'd be willing to guess that in your mind, support of Islam is OK, but support of Sikhi is not.

Is advocacy of Sikhi OK? So somebody comes up to you (or whoever) and trashes Sikhi, trashes the Gurus. You can't reply because somebody told you advocacy of Sikhi is banned by Sikhi? Absolutely bonkers!

Or, following the definition, is it only "zealous" advocacy of Sikhi that bothers you? So it's OK to advocate Sikhi, but just don't be zealous about it. Being a lukewarm advocate for Sikhi would be fine by you, just not a zealous advocate?

The only problem is that Gurbani itself defines Sikhs as those who have a zeal for their Guru:

ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਚਾ ਨੇਹੁ ਲਾਇਆ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਆਪਣੈ ॥

Andhar Sachaa Naehu Laaeiaa Preetham Aapanai ||

Deep within myself, I have enshrined true love for my Beloved.

ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਹਾਲੁ ਜਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਦੇਖਾ ਸਾਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਣੇ ॥੧॥

Than Man Hoe Nihaal Jaa Gur Dhaekhaa Saamhanae ||1||

My body and soul are in ecstasy; I see my Guru before me. ||1||

ਸੂਹੀ (ਮਃ ੪) ਅਸਟ. (੨) ੧:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੭੫੮ ਪੰ. ੧੪ 
Raag Suhi Guru Ram Das

 

Does a person who goes into ecstasy upon merely seeing his Guru sound to you like a zealous advocate of Sikhi or a lukewarm one?

Why, indeed, would Sikhs not be zealous of a Guru the mere sight of whom dispels sins:

ਜਿਨੀ ਡਿਠਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭਾਉ ਕਰਿ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਸਭਿ ਪਾਪ ਗਵਾਈ ॥

Jinee Ddithaa Maeraa Sathigur Bhaao Kar Thin Kae Sabh Paap Gavaaee ||

Those who have gazed lovingly upon my True Guru - all their sins are taken away.

ਗਉੜੀ ਵਾਰ¹ (ਮਃ ੪) (੧੮) ਸ. (੪) ੨:੫ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੧੦ ਪੰ. ੧੭ 
Raag Gauri Guru Ram Das

 

Such a great guru is the Guru that Sikhs yearn to see Him, and can't live for an instant without him:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਗੁਣ ਨਾਮ ਕਾ ਮੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੇਖਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥

Sathigur Saagar Gun Naam Kaa Mai This Dhaekhan Kaa Chaao ||

The True Guru is the Ocean of Virtue of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. I have such a yearning to see Him!
ਹਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਜੀਵਊ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੇਖੇ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਉ ॥੬॥

Ho This Bin Gharree N Jeevoo Bin Dhaekhae Mar Jaao ||6||

Without Him, I cannot live, even for an instant. If I do not see Him, I die. ||6||

ਸੂਹੀ (ਮਃ ੪) ਅਸਟ. (੨) ੬:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੭੫੯ ਪੰ. ੧ 
Raag Suhi Guru Ram Das
 

Does that sound like zeal or lukewarmness (tepidity) to you?

I hope you don't think I'm overdoing it with praising the Guru. The very definition of a Sikh includes the fact Sikhs are pleased with the Guru's praises. If you're not pleased with the Guru's praises, you're not a Sikh:

ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵਦੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥

Gurasikhaa Kai Man Bhaavadhee Gur Sathigur Kee Vaddiaaee ||

The glorious greatness of the Guru the True Guru is pleasing to the GurSikh's mind.

ਗਉੜੀ ਵਾਰ¹ (ਮਃ ੪) (੧੮) ਸ. (੪) ੨:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੧੦ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Raag Gauri Guru Ram Das

 

(Realize that I'm not trying to read you out of Sikhi. What I'd like you to do is to have the same zeal for the Guru as is stated in Gurbani.)

So are we agreed that Gurbani envisages a Sikh having zeal for his Guru, and consequently for Sikhi (which is just love for and being in accord with the Guru)?

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3 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

zealous advocacy or support of a particular cause." 

Have you done your Nitnem today, bro? 

ਅਨੰਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮੈ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

Anandh Bhaeiaa Maeree Maaeae Sathiguroo Mai Paaeiaa ||

I am in ecstasy, O my mother, for I have found my True Guru.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਤ ਪਾਇਆ ਸਹਜ ਸੇਤੀ ਮਨਿ ਵਜੀਆ ਵਾਧਾਈਆ ॥

Sathigur Th Paaeiaa Sehaj Saethee Man Vajeeaa Vaadhhaaeeaa ||

I have found the True Guru, with intuitive ease, and my mind vibrates with the music of bliss.

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਅਨੰਦ (ਮਃ ੩) ੧:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੧੭ ਪੰ. ੨ 
Raag Raamkali Guru Amar Das

 

So Guru ji is saying they (and Sikhs) are in anand (ecstasy) upon finding the True Guru, and you want to say that Sikhs are not allowed to have zeal for the Guru and for Sikhi?

 

ਕਰਿ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਸੁਖ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ਵਸਿਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਇਛਾ ਸਭਿ ਪੁਜਾਈਆ ॥

Kar Saanth Sukh Man Aae Vasiaa Jin Eishhaa Sabh Pujaaeeaa ||

It has brought peace and tranquility to my mind; it has fulfilled all my desires.

ਸਦਾ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਜਿਸ ਦੀਆ ਏਹਿ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ॥

Sadhaa Kurabaan Keethaa Guroo Vittahu Jis Dheeaa Eaehi Vaddiaaeeaa ||

I am forever a sacrifice to the Guru, who possesses such glorious greatness.

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਅਨੰਦ (ਮਃ ੩) ੪:੪ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੧੭ ਪੰ. ੧੦ 
Raag Raamkali Guru Amar Das

 

Why wouldn't Sikhs have zeal for such a guru?

 

ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਖੋਜਦੇ ਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

Sur Nar Mun Jan Anmrith Khojadhae S Anmrith Gur Thae Paaeiaa ||

The angelic beings and the silent sages search for the Ambrosial Nectar; this Amrit is obtained from the Guru.

ਪਾਇਆ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਗੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੀਨੀ ਸਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਾਇਆ ॥

Paaeiaa Anmrith Gur Kirapaa Keenee Sachaa Man Vasaaeiaa ||

This Amrit is obtained, when the Guru grants His Grace; He enshrines the True Lord within the mind.

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਅਨੰਦ (ਮਃ ੩) (੧੩):੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੯੧੮ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Raag Raamkali Guru Amar Das

 

The Amrit that everybody has been searching for is granted by the Guru.

So why, I ask you, would Sikhs not have zeal for their Guru and his Sikhi?

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4 hours ago, BhForce said:

OK, if that's the definition you want to use, then fine.

You claim that Sikhi prohibits evangelism, i.e., prohibits "zealous advocacy or support of a particular cause". The cause here being Sikhi  itself, I presume.

So, what are you trying to say? That it prohibits

1. zealous advocacy of Sikhi

2. (non-zealous) advocacy of Sikhi

3. zealous support of Sikhi

4. (non-zealous) support of Sikhi

So even supporting Sikhi is not allowed by Sikhi? That's nuts. Is support of Islam allowed by Sikhi? I'd be willing to guess that in your mind, support of Islam is OK, but support of Sikhi is not.

Is advocacy of Sikhi OK? So somebody comes up to you (or whoever) and trashes Sikhi, trashes the Gurus. You can't reply because somebody told you advocacy of Sikhi is banned by Sikhi? Absolutely bonkers!

Or, following the definition, is it only "zealous" advocacy of Sikhi that bothers you? So it's OK to advocate Sikhi, but just don't be zealous about it. Being a lukewarm advocate for Sikhi would be fine by you, just not a zealous advocate?

The only problem is that Gurbani itself defines Sikhs as those who have a zeal for their Guru:

ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਚਾ ਨੇਹੁ ਲਾਇਆ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਆਪਣੈ ॥

Andhar Sachaa Naehu Laaeiaa Preetham Aapanai ||

Deep within myself, I have enshrined true love for my Beloved.

ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਹਾਲੁ ਜਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਦੇਖਾ ਸਾਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਣੇ ॥੧॥

Than Man Hoe Nihaal Jaa Gur Dhaekhaa Saamhanae ||1||

My body and soul are in ecstasy; I see my Guru before me. ||1||

ਸੂਹੀ (ਮਃ ੪) ਅਸਟ. (੨) ੧:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੭੫੮ ਪੰ. ੧੪ 
Raag Suhi Guru Ram Das

 

Does a person who goes into ecstasy upon merely seeing his Guru sound to you like a zealous advocate of Sikhi or a lukewarm one?

Why, indeed, would Sikhs not be zealous of a Guru the mere sight of whom dispels sins:

ਜਿਨੀ ਡਿਠਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭਾਉ ਕਰਿ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਸਭਿ ਪਾਪ ਗਵਾਈ ॥

Jinee Ddithaa Maeraa Sathigur Bhaao Kar Thin Kae Sabh Paap Gavaaee ||

Those who have gazed lovingly upon my True Guru - all their sins are taken away.

ਗਉੜੀ ਵਾਰ¹ (ਮਃ ੪) (੧੮) ਸ. (੪) ੨:੫ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੧੦ ਪੰ. ੧੭ 
Raag Gauri Guru Ram Das

 

Such a great guru is the Guru that Sikhs yearn to see Him, and can't live for an instant without him:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਗੁਣ ਨਾਮ ਕਾ ਮੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੇਖਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥

Sathigur Saagar Gun Naam Kaa Mai This Dhaekhan Kaa Chaao ||

The True Guru is the Ocean of Virtue of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. I have such a yearning to see Him!
ਹਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਜੀਵਊ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੇਖੇ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਉ ॥੬॥

Ho This Bin Gharree N Jeevoo Bin Dhaekhae Mar Jaao ||6||

Without Him, I cannot live, even for an instant. If I do not see Him, I die. ||6||

ਸੂਹੀ (ਮਃ ੪) ਅਸਟ. (੨) ੬:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੭੫੯ ਪੰ. ੧ 
Raag Suhi Guru Ram Das
 

Does that sound like zeal or lukewarmness (tepidity) to you?

I hope you don't think I'm overdoing it with praising the Guru. The very definition of a Sikh includes the fact Sikhs are pleased with the Guru's praises. If you're not pleased with the Guru's praises, you're not a Sikh:

ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵਦੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥

Gurasikhaa Kai Man Bhaavadhee Gur Sathigur Kee Vaddiaaee ||

The glorious greatness of the Guru the True Guru is pleasing to the GurSikh's mind.

ਗਉੜੀ ਵਾਰ¹ (ਮਃ ੪) (੧੮) ਸ. (੪) ੨:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੧੦ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Raag Gauri Guru Ram Das

 

(Realize that I'm not trying to read you out of Sikhi. What I'd like you to do is to have the same zeal for the Guru as is stated in Gurbani.)

So are we agreed that Gurbani envisages a Sikh having zeal for his Guru, and consequently for Sikhi (which is just love for and being in accord with the Guru)?

Their is a difference between having zeal, supporting something and evangelising 

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6 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

Their is a difference between having zeal, supporting something and evangelising 

Are you even going to try to rebut anything he said? Because you just got counter striked pretty hard. 

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8 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

Their is a difference between having zeal, supporting something and evangelising 

clearly you don't  know the reciprocal love Guru ji has for his sikhs also :

"Khalsa mero roop hai khaas, Khaalse meh hau karau nivaas
Khalsa is my form special, In Khalsa I live

Khalsa mero mukh hai angaa, Khaalse ke haun sad sad sangaa
Khalsa is my body, With Khalsa Im ever ever present

Khalsa mero mitar sakhaaee, Khalsa maat pita sukhdaaee
Khalsa my friend companion, khalsa mother father peacegiver

Khalsa mero dharam our karam, khalsa mero bhed nij maram”
Khalsa my faith and actions, Khalsa my distinct personal mystique

Khalsa mero bhavan bhandaara, Khaalse kar mero satkaara
khalsa my treasure vast, Khalsa keeps my honour

Khalsa mero satgur poora, Khalsa mero sajjan soora
Khalsa my satguru complete, Khalsa my virtous noble friend, brave dauntless warrior

Khalsa akal purakh ki fauj, pragteo khalsa paramatam ki mauj.
Khalsa army of God, the Akal Purakh, Khalsa joy of the Supreme Being."
x.gif
 
Given this high status Guru ji gives the Khalsa , that the actions of the Khalsa reflect on the Honour of the Guru ... Jagmeet's actions tarnish the Khalsa image through his selfish usage of Guru jji's image and his lack of discipline in terms of trying to marry a patit as she has comitted bujjar kurehit ... He could remedy the situation but I doubt the will is there  as it will impact their relationship...
 
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Khalsa is given status of enlighten being as sarbloh granth mentions- 

Atam Ras Neh Jannehi Sio Haie Khalas Dev, Prab Meh Mo Meh Tas Meh Ranchak Naeh Bhaid(v) ||

The one who has entered and realized the sphere of atma(self), he alone is worthy of the title of the khalsa, he becomes one with me the guru and ultimately God.There is no difference.

So with that definition and one above posted kept in mind, most of us are not there yet once we do serious self introspection, we are still learning sikhs and have conditioning, influenced by five vices, we are in the same boat just like everyone else. You see stakes are so high set by sri guru gobind singh  in game of being khalsa (atamgyani/bhramgyani) minute sikh start accusing jagmeet singh of tarnishing image of khalsa- tables turns right away and self reflection mirror is shown to  them so they can reflect on this verse:

Atam Ras Neh Jannehi Sio Haie Khalas Dev, Prab Meh Mo Meh Tas Meh Ranchak Naeh Bhaid(v) ||

The one who has entered and realized the sphere of atma(self), he alone is worthy of the title of the khalsa, he becomes one with me the guru and ultimately God.There is no difference.

 

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