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Changes as an Amritdhari

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1 hour ago, BhForce said:

You want to use the word "invalidate" in place of "break"? OK, whatever.

But you do know that Sikhs commonly speak of "ਉਹਨੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਤੋੜ ਲਿਆ" in Punjabi. ਤੋੜ = break. By committing a bajjer kurehit, you break your Amrit. (Or invalidate it, if you prefer.)

My post was actually based on Katha, and so was originally narrated in Punjabi but thanks for the explanation. Personally I know nothing brother, I was merely talking about what I was told. What I was told made sense to me, if it doesn't to you then i can't really do anything about that. The Katha was about how Amrit has been reduced in status if you will, the Mahaanta given to Amrit. Not saying you're wrong but we all see it with a different perspective. Amrit is unbreakable.

1 hour ago, BhForce said:

Surely you would agree that a person who has turned his back to Guru Sahib, commits bajjer kurehits, is a bemukh, and is beaten night and day has broken their Amrit, no? You would say that a bemukh is still an Amritdhari?

This is partly a matter of semantics. If one commits a bajjar kurehat they're on suspension.

We're probably not gonna agree on this point because I don't believe Amrit can be "broken". And to say so, is wrong in my book.

1 hour ago, BhForce said:

I think the reason he is asking why people break their Amrit is because he is concerned he might break his, that is, he is asking about ways to stay strong in his Sikhi.

Or he was quite clearly slamming Amrit and Amritdharis. He said taking Amrit is fake. If you still think he's concerned why don't you counsel him? To me it actually seems he had all the answers to his questions in his own mind, they all seemed rhetorical.

His post wasn't exactly the kind you'd expect to find on a thread about an individual who is planning on taking Amrit now is it?

Edited by MrDoaba

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5 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

My post was actually based on Katha, and so was originally narrated in Punjabi but thanks for the explanation. Personally I know nothing brother, I was merely talking about what I was told. What I was told made sense to me, if it doesn't to you then i can't really do anything about that. The Katha was about how Amrit has been reduced in status if you will, the Mahaanta given to Amrit. Not saying you're wrong but we all see it with a different perspective. Amrit is unbreakable.

I have sympathy for your approach, and I'm also not saying you're wrong. All I'm saying is (in my experience), the majority of Sikhs speak of "breaking Amrit" or ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਤੋੜਨਾ. An alternative way of phrasing things that might be acceptable to you is "breaking your Amrit vows" or "breaking your Amrit lifestyle".

As far as the original poster denigrating Amrit and Amritdharis, yes, I agree that wrong acts by some Amritdharis does not mean you can just badmouth Amritdharis as a group.

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1 minute ago, BhForce said:

I have sympathy for your approach, and I'm also not saying you're wrong. All I'm saying is (in my experience), the majority of Sikhs speak of "breaking Amrit" or ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਤੋੜਨਾ. An alternative way of phrasing things that might be acceptable to you is "breaking your Amrit vows" or "breaking your Amrit lifestyle".

The Katha was Taksali based if that makes it any easier for you to understand where I was coming from. They have a certain flavour and way of explaining things. With Taksalis sometimes it's the small things that stick with you, and it's amazing how just hearing something once has the ability to change your soch, hell even your speech pattern!

I completely get what you mean though. Guess it was just a misunderstanding, apologies brother.

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3 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

I completely get what you mean though. Guess it was just a misunderstanding, apologies brother.

No apologies required.

Just to let you know where I'm coming from, Bhai Gurdas ji says when you become a bemukh, even if you come back to the Guru, the stain remains:

ਜੈਸੇ ਘਾਉ ਘਾਇਲ ਕੋ ਜਤਨ ਕੈ ਨੀਕੋ ਹੋਤ ਪੀਰ ਮਿਟਿ ਜਾਇਲੀਕ ਮਿਟਤ ਨ ਪੇਖੀਐ ।

Just as the wound gets cured with medicine and the pain also vanishes, but the scar of the wound is never seen to vanish. 

ਜੈਸੇ ਫਾਟੇ ਅੰਬਰੋ ਸੀਆਇ ਪੁਨਿ ਓਢੀਅਤ ਨਾਗੋ ਤਉ ਨ ਹੋਇ ਤਊ ਥੇਗਰੀ ਪਰੇਖੀਐ ।

Just as a torn cloth stitched and worn does not bare the body but the seam of the stitch is visible and conspicuous. 

ਜੈਸੇ ਟੂਟੈ ਬਾਸਨੁ ਸਵਾਰ ਦੇਤ ਹੈ ਠਠੇਰੋ ਗਿਰਤ ਨ ਪਾਨੀ ਪੈ ਗਠੀਲੋ ਭੇਖ ਭੇਖੀਐ ।

Just as a broken utensil is repaired by coppersmith and even the water does not leak from it, but it is repaired form stays. 

ਤੈਸੇ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਨਿ ਬਿਮੁਖ ਦੁਖ ਦੇਖਿ ਪੁਨਿ ਸਰਨ ਗਹੇ ਪੁਨੀਤ ਪੈ ਕਲੰਕੁ ਲੇਖ ਲੇਖੀਐ ॥੪੧੯॥

Similarly, a disciple who has turned away from the holy feet of the True Guru comes back to the Guru's refuge when he feels the pain of his actions. Although he is freed of his sins and becomes pious, yet the .blemish of his apostasy remains.  (419)

ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ : ਕਬਿੱਤ ੪੧੯ ਪੰ. ੪

 

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4 minutes ago, BhForce said:

ਤੈਸੇ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਨਿ ਬਿਮੁਖ ਦੁਖ ਦੇਖਿ ਪੁਨਿ ਸਰਨ ਗਹੇ ਪੁਨੀਤ ਪੈ ਕਲੰਕੁ ਲੇਖ ਲੇਖੀਐ ॥੪੧੯॥

Similarly, a disciple who has turned away from the holy feet of the True Guru comes back to the Guru's refuge when he feels the pain of his actions. Although he is freed of his sins and becomes pious, yet the .blemish of his apostasy remains.  (419)

A moorakh like me would need to listen to Katha on this. For now, what in your opinion, is the summary of what you posted? The blemish of apostasy remains in the eyes of who? Guru Sahib? The public? The apostate himself? I can understand that it remains but what exactly is it saying? Is this blemish one of distrust?

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11 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

A moorakh like me would need to listen to Katha on this. For now, what in your opinion, is the summary of what you posted? The blemish of apostasy remains in the eyes of who? Guru Sahib? The public? The apostate himself? I can understand that it remains but what exactly is it saying? Is this blemish one of distrust?

Makes me think while nobody wants to break their spoon, at least the spoon works just as well once repaired, it's just obviously been repaired, but hey that's better than throwing the spoon out.

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23 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

For now, what in your opinion, is the summary of what you posted? The blemish of apostasy remains in the eyes of who? Guru Sahib? The public? The apostate himself?

Well, for starters, Bhai Gurdas ji wrote this, not me, and of course it is accepted as ਪਰਮਾਣਿਕ (authentic) by the Panth. Far be it for me to state the full and final meaning of any tuk, from any source.

But since you asked my opinion, yes, I would say all of the above. The stain remains in the sight of Guru Sahib, the sangat, non-Sikh, and the bemukh, too.

For a practical application of this, I would say: I would be highly skeptical of an adult pracharak who has full knowledge of what Guru ji wants us to do, and still commits bajjer kurehits, and then later does peshi, and wants to sit on the stage above the sangat and lecture them on Sikhi again. I think most of the sangat would agree.

So all of those "babas" in the Youtube videos posted by the OP, they would not have the right, I think, to sit on the Gurdwara stage and preach. If they want to pesh and live a humble Sikh life, that's fine.

Thoughts?

Edited by BhForce
a -> an

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This just brings a pangti to my mind

SGGS Ang 718

ਕਉਨ ਕੋ ਕਲੰਕੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੇਤ ਹੀ  
कउन को कलंकु रहिओ राम नामु लेत ही ॥ 
Ka▫un ko kalank rahi▫o rām nām leṯ hī. 
Whose blemishes remain, when one chants the Lord's Name? 
 
ਪਤਿਤ ਪਵਿਤ ਭਏ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਹਤ ਹੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ  
पतित पवित भए रामु कहत ही ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Paṯiṯ paviṯ bẖa▫e rām kahaṯ hī. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
Sinners become pure, chanting the Lord's Name. ||1||Pause|| 

 

Further on another pangti

ਭਨਤਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਸੁਮਤਿ ਭਏ  
भनति नामदेउ सुक्रित सुमति भए ॥ 
Bẖanaṯ nāmḏe▫o sukariṯ sumaṯ bẖa▫e. 
Prays Naam Dayv, I have become a man of good deeds and good thoughts. 
 

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਹਿ ਕੋ ਕੋ  ਬੈਕੁੰਠਿ ਗਏ ॥੨॥੨॥ 
गुरमति रामु कहि को को न बैकुंठि गए ॥२॥२॥ 
Gurmaṯ rām kahi ko ko na baikunṯẖ ga▫e. ||2||2|| 
Chanting the Lord's Name, under Guru's Instructions, who has not gone to heaven? ||2||2|| 

 

It should be noted too that it is God who gives this ability to a man to understand the creator. 

He is the one who leads people astray too. It is all his khel so whether you get a kalank or not... the important thing is you learn from it and do not do it again. 

If it was in our hands who would want to get a kalank in the first place.

Bhai Joga ji was saved by Guruji who stood guard for the whole night to stop him from getting to a prostitute on his wedding night. Bhai Joga did not technically do anything .... but still the kalank remains in his story ... he let his mind lead him astray. 

Other peoples kalank can teach us something about our own kalank. However if you are going to get one ... it just happens. That is why we pray to Guruji to hide our kalanks. 

He also hides our kalanks in the first place, when he wants to keep us from some sort of hurt.  Some get exposed but yes Satgur does keep the laaj of his sevaks too. 

 

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5 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Well, for starters, Bhai Gurdas ji wrote this, not me, and of course it is accepted as ਪਰਮਾਣਿਕ (authentic) by the Panth. Far be it for me to state the full and final meaning of any tuk, from any source.

I've actually never read any of Bhai Gurdas Ji's Kabits. Attend Katha of the Vaaran and have read some of Pandit Hazaara Singh's steek. They are absolutely mind-blowing.

6 minutes ago, BhForce said:

But since you asked my opinion, yes, I would say all of the above. The stain remains in the sight of Guru Sahib, the sangat, non-Sikh, and the bemukh, too.

For a practical application of this, I would say: I would be highly skeptical of a adult pracharak who has full knowledge of what Guru ji wants us to do, and still commits bajjer kurehits, and then later does peshi, and wants to sit on the stage above the sangat and lecture them on Sikhi again. I think most of the sangat would agree.

So all of those "babas" in the Youtube videos posted by the OP, they would not have the right, I think, to sit on the Gurdwara stage and preach. If they want to pesh and live a humble Sikh life, that's fine.

Thoughts?

Sangat, yes. Non-Sikh, yes. Bemukh, yes. Guru Sahib, not sure. Guru Sahib of course knows everything - antajami, but, I cannot imagine Guru Sahib looking upon a Sikh with judgement. It's hard to describe with words without giving an impression of duality. Guru Sahib will always know what you did, that is now part of your lekha but saying the stain remains in the sight of Guru Sahib sounds a bit Judeo-Christian to me. Do you see where I'm coming from?

I would agree on the point of such a prachaarak.

No they shouldn't have a right to preach but it all depends on the situation. I mean I didn't watch the videos but they were all buying booze and were quite well aware of their actions. But we should also remember that many preachers and Kirtanis are not really Sikh nor do they have any intention of living like one. It's a job, nothing more. We just assume they're Dharmic bande.

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11 minutes ago, sikhni777 said:

SGGS Ang 718

ਕਉਨ ਕੋ ਕਲੰਕੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੇਤ ਹੀ  
Whose blemishes remain, when one chants the Lord's Name? 
 
ਪਤਿਤ ਪਵਿਤ ਭਏ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਹਤ ਹੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ  
Sinners become pure, chanting the Lord's Name. ||1||Pause|| 

 

I may indeed be wrong, but in my opinion the tuks you quoted above and the ones I quoted above, together, would mean something like this: Guru Sahib is able to remove your sins, yet at the same time, if you commit serious sins (bajjer kurehat) after adopting Guru ji as your guru, a blemish will remain.

So, for example, the greatest of sinners (Kauda Rakash, Sajjan Thug) can turn away from their sins and have them expunged through the Guru. But, if after you come to the Guru and commit additional such sins, the blemish will remain.

I.e., you should not think that peshi is a game. Take Amrit, commit paaps, do a peshi, then repeat all over again.

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2 minutes ago, BhForce said:

I.e., you should not think that peshi is a game.

This should be a thread in its own right and be put in the gupt section as a sticky!

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On 1/17/2018 at 7:34 PM, lostconfussedsingh said:

Its the experinces i have had in real life that have made me label amritdharis as frauds fakes.

 

The videos you posted are highly disturbing. 

But you would get a lot further on this forum if instead of your wording above, in which you seem to say all amritdharis as a group are frauds and fakes, you would say:

"There are many frauds and fakes who are posing as amritdharis but are actually patit"

If you were to phrase it like that, nobody could object to your statement.

The reason you are catching flak is because you made a provocative and arguably false statement.

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11 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

Are eggs in the same boat as meat?

Milk is an exception though?

VJKK VJKF

Personally, I know some maryadas will allow egg and some won't but when faced with these kinds of problems I look back on the type of giann that Guru Ji has given me. If Guru Ji has allowed me to go to katha and do sangat of people who don't eat eggs then, for me, I will not be eating egg. However, Guru Ji may make some Gursikhs do sangat of people who are okay with egg and so for them Guru Ji is showing a different way of Sikhi Ji. Not that either way is wrong, it just might be an indication as to the type of Sikhi Guru Ji is blessing upon you.

Furthermore, in katha I've been taught no eggs so for me I wouldn't picture my Guru Ji eating eggs and therefore, neither would I Ji. Not that anyone else's katha is wrong but just my personal reason for why I don't eat egg Ji. Maaf karna if I've offended anyone Ji. 

Vaheguru Ji.

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14 hours ago, BhForce said:

The videos you posted are highly disturbing. 

But you would get a lot further on this forum if instead of your wording above, in which you seem to say all amritdharis as a group are frauds and fakes, you would say:

"There are many frauds and fakes who are posing as amritdharis but are actually patit"

If you were to phrase it like that, nobody could object to your statement.

The reason you are catching flak is because you made a provocative and arguably false statement.

Lol I am glad the videos have sent shock waves. I know i am not making false statements as i have seen things that will shock you trust me of people whom i know that wear a kirpan. 

 

Its true what you wrote about being patit but what would you use to describe amritdharis who lie and keep Guru Ji's Saroop at their home at the same time ?

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