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Big_Tera

Celebrating the birth of Jesus

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On 26/12/2017 at 11:48 AM, singhunit said:

Fateh

I have a tree for my children and no I am not a cocount. 

My children know their history but I also want them to integrate with their community, children at school etc. Yes I buy them also gift from santa as that's what they still believe in.

This is what I see with Muslims - so secluded from rest of the country/community that they live in - they think it's their way or the he highway.

Get the balance right.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

In another topic you said the following about the children of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, who wanted to have more Shastar on them in a Gurdwara:

Even if he did make sangat take off 'bigger shaster'....fair play to him for taking a stand. You expect him to not be cautious after his own 'Sikh' brothers trying to kill him? P.s can you tell me 1 thing you have done for the panth

so you don't want children of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji to practice keeping shastar as directed by Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji.  But you will go against gurmat to make your children happy and not feel left out.  Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji made it clear not to celebrate Holi and to celebrate Holla Maholla.  Don't throw color on each other.  Practice Shastar vidiya.  Also how do you celebrate Christmas when the Khalsa panth is remembering the shaheeds and focused on Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji gurpurab. Talk about not knowing your Sikh history.

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9 hours ago, Big_Tera said:

Its about seting a good example to the youngsters. Kids are like sponges they absorb everything around them. If all the have is Christmas celebration and easter celebration. and no teaching or celebration of their own faith. 

how will these kids end up 5 10 years down the line. we are already seeing many of our youth becoming christian. yet the liberal fatsos. wont have it any other way.  They want to surround the impressionable youth with Christmas festivities. then when the same kids lose all belief in their own religion and go to other faiths. they cry. 

What may seem harmless to an adult is completely different to a child growing up. we must not send them confusing messages at this early age.

is it any wonder why alot of punjabis are the laughing stock. the have been brought up with zero knowledge of their own faith. yet plenty abut the virgin mary and jesus, presents, santa ect. its time to wake up and smell the coffee. dont bury your head in the sand. 

 

PUTARAYO

Is celebrating Christmas among Punjabis/Sikhs/South Asians common in the UK? Because I feel it’s a UK thing as it is really rare to celebrate Christmas for South Asians (except the Christian SA) in the Americas. Here we don’t know two hoots about Jesus, other than the fact that he was nailed to a cross. No tree, no gift giving, no special dinners, none of that is done here among our community. Sure kids wait in anticipation for Santa Claus, but they never have a clue about the religious significance of the day. Do British schools enforce Christian teachings in the classroom and is it compulsory?

Edited by TejS
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Akalifauj - where have what I said anti-gurmat?

 

Have I said I celebrate or follow Jesus? I buy my children a present and have a tree (with no star on top before you get excited).

 

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We're complaining that our children, and adults for that matter, don't celebrate our own festivals or occasions. Why is that?

It's because there is no formalised celebration(s). There is no ritual involved, no symbolism, no set traditions, no outward celebration. There is not really any sense of belonging, togetherness, or that community atmosphere. Just a trip to the Gurdwara, and in many cases the ensuing guilt trip by the Kathakaars. Constant condescension and pessimism doesn't get us anywhere. We're worse than the Catholic Church!

It's all well and good to bang on about inward reflection, everyday is the same, what the day really means, Guru Sahibs message etc etc etc, but the fact is though we are human, and humans need ritual to some extent, need order, some kind of structure.

Majority of kids couldn't care less about what the day means, they need it to have some significance on a more basic level, then when they are older naturally they will inquire about the day, find out the true meaning. Even adults need this to some degree.

The biggest and most popular festival on the Sikh calendar is Diwali (whether you like it or not). Ever wondered why that is??? Oh I forgot some people are also trying eradicate any fun and excitement from that too.

This is where the anti-ritual, anti-imagery, and Hinduphobic attitude has landed us.

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5 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

We're complaining that our children, and adults for that matter, don't celebrate our own festivals or occasions. Why is that?

It's because there is no formalised celebration(s). There is no ritual involved, no symbolism, no set traditions, no outward celebration. There is not really any sense of belonging, togetherness, or that community atmosphere. Just a trip to the Gurdwara, and in many cases the ensuing guilt trip by the Kathakaars. Constant condescension and pessimism doesn't get us anywhere. We're worse than the Catholic Church!

It's all well and good to bang on about inward reflection, everyday is the same, what the day really means, Guru Sahibs message etc etc etc, but the fact is though we are human, and humans need ritual to some extent, need order, some kind of structure.

Majority of kids couldn't care less about what the day means, they need it to have some significance on a more basic level, then when they are older naturally they will inquire about the day, find out the true meaning. Even adults need this to some degree.

The biggest and most popular festival on the Sikh calendar is Diwali (whether you like it or not). Ever wondered why that is??? Oh I forgot some people are also trying eradicate any fun and excitement from that too.

This is where the anti-ritual, anti-imagery, and Hinduphobic attitude has landed us.

no one is the same or worse than the catholics ...we have no priesthoods, celibate worship, idol worship, personal aggrandisment in the eyes of sangat or rampant child abuse ...so please not draw such comparisons .

we have mela , nagar kirtans, gatka displays, hola mohalla, dussehra , smagams galore, loads of celebrations maybe you have chosen to forget those

the rehit gives structure and rhythm to our lives via habit , the gratitude attitude becomes a habit as does the naam in our hearts, listening to great kirtan opens our minds and souls to the beauty in the cosmos , develops our brains frequencies and processing powers ...kids are IGNORANT until informed so saying what you said makes no real point ...

I knew about christianity because our primary school used to read parables to us each assembley and we used to sing hymns, do the nativity at christmas , but the fact that my parents also told me about Guru Nanak Dev ji and all Guru Sahiban via sakian which was similar but yet more appealing because they were instantly more relatable, caring and loving than these preachy sermons . Kids respond to what they know of Akal Purakh in their hearts and the bible/Torah/quran/vedas/geeta/shastras can never come closer. Guru Sahiban even gave us the formula of how to get the kids into Sikhi but we still won't do it - just tell them the history and sakhian of their spiritual ancestors

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2 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

no one is the same or worse than the catholics ...we have no priesthoods, celibate worship, idol worship, personal aggrandisment in the eyes of sangat or rampant child abuse ...so please not draw such comparisons .

Priesthood in Sikhi is Sants, Babe, Gyanis or we can continue being in denial. There are plenty of Sikhs who practise Brahmachari. Ok fine we do not have idol worship per se. Personal aggrandisement is aplenty. There is child abuse but not on the scale as the Catholic Church - sure it was DDT who was guilty of this (ironically the ones who think they are bajjar-kurehatproof but like to point fingers at everyone else)

Btw I apologise I wasn't clearer, that sentence was not meant to define the whole paragraph rather the guilt trip remark.

2 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

we have mela , nagar kirtans, gatka displays, hola mohalla, dussehra , smagams galore, loads of celebrations maybe you have chosen to forget those

In India these are probabaly great. Here is the west you cannot say the same. I'm sorry to say but personally I believe Nagar Kirtans are a huge waste of time here, albeit not in every city but the majority are. Mele and Gatka displays are generally part of Nagar Kirtans.

2 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

the rehit gives structure and rhythm to our lives via habit , the gratitude attitude becomes a habit as does the naam in our hearts, listening to great kirtan opens our minds and souls to the beauty in the cosmos , develops our brains frequencies and processing powers ...kids are IGNORANT until informed so saying what you said makes no real point ...

I see your point but I feel it is actually well off point in regards to the topic being discussed. I'm talking about festivals/days of celebrations, not day to day.

What you're describing is probably true for 1% of those who follow Rehat, apart from that it's just idealism.

Yes kids are ignorant, that was my point, they are ignorant to the facts, hence, everything I said in my post.

2 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

I knew about christianity because our primary school used to read parables to us each assembley and we used to sing hymns, do the nativity at christmas , but the fact that my parents also told me about Guru Nanak Dev ji and all Guru Sahiban via sakian which was similar but yet more appealing because they were instantly more relatable, caring and loving than these preachy sermons . Kids respond to what they know of Akal Purakh in their hearts and the bible/Torah/quran/vedas/geeta/shastras can never come closer. Guru Sahiban even gave us the formula of how to get the kids into Sikhi but we still won't do it - just tell them the history and sakhian of their spiritual ancestors

This all makes sense although, again, I do not see how it relates to the matter being discussed. I'm talking about formal celebration of the day itself, traditions! Something to mark the day. Sikhs as a whole do not have enthusiasm when it comes to their own celebrations. Then we b!tch and moan when kids don't know about it, or don't want to celebrate it, or when the day in question is sidelined because it is perceived as boring - Sakhis and Ithiaas only go so far.

 

Edited by MrDoaba
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3 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

Priesthood in Sikhi is Sants, Babe, Gyanis or we can continue being in denial. There are plenty of Sikhs who practise Brahmachari. Ok fine we do not have idol worship per se. Personal aggrandisement is aplenty. There is child abuse but not on the scale as the Catholic Church - sure it was DDT who was guilty of this (ironically the ones who think they are bajjar-kurehatproof but like to point fingers at everyone else)

Btw I apologise I wasn't clearer, that sentence was not meant to define the whole paragraph rather the guilt trip remark.

In India these are probabaly great. Here is the west you cannot say the same. I'm sorry to say but personally I believe Nagar Kirtans are a huge waste of time here, albeit not in every city but the majority are. Mele and Gatka displays are generally part of Nagar Kirtans.

I see your point but I feel it is actually well off point in regards to the topic being discussed. I'm talking about festivals/days of celebrations, not day to day. What you're describing is probably true for 1% of those who follow Rehat, apart from that it's just idealism.

Yes kids are ignorant, that was my point, they are ignorant to the facts, hence, everything I said in my post.

This all makes sense although, again, I do not see how it relates to the matter being discussed. I'm talking about formal celebration of the day itself, traditions! Something to mark the day. Sikhs as a whole do not have enthusiasm when it comes to their own celebrations. Then we b!tch and moan when kids don't know about it, or don't want to celebrate it, or when the day in question is sidelined because it is perceived as boring - Sakhis and Ithiaas only go so far.

 

all this is relating to the subject of the pushing away of our faith to replace it with others celebrations , we have the tech to fix it but until we get skates under the committe vale who are dragging sikhi off road  and ensure our kids have knowledge and opportunity to do sewa , sing kirtan (love to be up there much better than britain's got talent), lead congregation in Ardas , Parshad vartouna etc etc .

a Granthi is just a sikh who has decided to do hazoori sewa , technically anyone can do the job, Sants are not of any official roles despite what Indians want us to believe , Sant Samaj is full of people who acted really dodgy during the protests against Guru ji's beadbhi...Giani/sant are ACTUALLY defined in Gurbani and these people mostly don't approach that level.

Sikhi is flat hierarchy under Guru Granth Sahib ji /Akal Purakh anyone claiming otherwise is lying

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2 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

ensure our kids have knowledge and opportunity to do sewa , sing kirtan (love to be up there much better than britain's got talent), lead congregation in Ardas , Parshad vartouna etc etc .

This is an excellent point. We have very little involvement in terms of worship. We certainly do not make people feel as if they are taking part/getting involved or help them connect on a personal level. It's not just down to the committee vale though, the other barrier is the Rehit Police. Practically need a background check to take part in anything. As a teenager and when I was a mona, I used to go to a smaller Gurdwara (Ravidassi), and the Granthis used to ask me to vartao prasaad if there was no one there to do it. Even then I was like "what me? Are you sure?", but at the same time I felt so happy, felt a part of the Gurdwara, felt a connection. I also found it ironic that the people who have faced the most discrimination in our qaum did not discriminate against me, caste or Sikhi wise.

2 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

a Granthi is just a sikh who has decided to do hazoori sewa , technically anyone can do the job, Sants are not of any official roles despite what Indians want us to believe , Sant Samaj is full of people who acted really dodgy during the protests against Guru ji's beadbhi...Giani/sant are ACTUALLY defined in Gurbani and these people mostly don't approach that level.

Sikhi is flat hierarchy under Guru Granth Sahib ji /Akal Purakh anyone claiming otherwise is lying

I actually said Gyani, as in those who are given that title, Kathakaars and such. And yeah what you're saying is right, but I'm saying what the situation is; we have a de facto hierarchy.

 

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14 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

I knew about christianity because our primary school used to read parables to us each assembley and we used to sing hymns, do the nativity at christmas

Isn't that illegal, or did you and your parents consent to that? And if so why?

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5 minutes ago, TejS said:

Isn't that illegal, or did you and your parents consent to that? And if so why?

It was the same at our school. We also sang hymns in assembly. It was the norm in all schools, but I don’t know what it is nowadays. 

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1 hour ago, simran345 said:

It was the same at our school. We also sang hymns in assembly. It was the norm in all schools, but I don’t know what it is nowadays. 

Its absurd that you guys had to go through this. Does the UK not have separate Christian/Catholic schools? This is literally imposing religion onto impressionable young children. Its wrong on so many levels!

Edited by TejS
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15 minutes ago, TejS said:

Its absurd that you guys had to go through this. Does the UK not have separate Christian/Catholic schools? This is literally imposing religion onto impressionable young children. Its wrong on so many levels!

Yeah well this was a long time ago. Many many moons ago. There were no Sikhi schools then, it was part of a normal school routine to sing hymns. I used to have a bible too, but don’t remember much. Nativity plays are still done in schools at Christmas time, but I don’t know about the hymns. I guess it depends which area you are in too. I think there weren’t any Sikhi schools then either, as we lived in a majority gora area. The catholic schools were separate from our school. We didn’t have the privileges of what there are now. But it was down to the parents/family to teach the children about their faith/religion. Not sure if Sikhi is taught in RE classes now. The Gurdwara did have Punjabi classes, which I attended for a bit and our secondary school had a few too, which I was at top always. Don’t know why as I didn’t study much, but somehow seemed to be good at it. 

Edited by simran345
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2 hours ago, TejS said:

Isn't that illegal, or did you and your parents consent to that? And if so why?

I don't know about the UK, but when I studied at a  Convent school in India (which was perceived to be one of the best) for some months, we had to sing Catholic prayers every day and refusing to do so could result in punishment (fines, hitting with stick or even expulsion). I remember during Christmas season, we had to sing extra prayers (Silent Night, Christmas Tree etc).  "Sisters" (nuns) would take extra measures to punish kids speaking Punjabi, especially during Christmas month. 

 

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5 hours ago, TejS said:

Isn't that illegal, or did you and your parents consent to that? And if so why?

no it is not illegal  or at least it wasn't then and teachers and headteachers were not constrained in how to teach as the current spoonfed neo liberal slush given to our kids.

in the seventies , people actually still talked about the faith of the land ...nothing unusual really ...Indians are forever talking about their majority religions and forcing their chosen languages on others.

it was a state school , and we all sang the songs when told to close eyes and bow heads I did the same but did naam japp ...same with my siblings

Edited by jkvlondon
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On Thursday, December 28, 2017 at 10:11 PM, MrDoaba said:

 

Yes kids are ignorant, that was my point, they are ignorant to the facts, hence, everything I said in my post.

This all makes sense although, again, I do not see how it relates to the matter being discussed. I'm talking about formal celebration of the day itself, traditions! Something to mark the day. Sikhs as a whole do not have enthusiasm when it comes to their own celebrations. Then we b!tch and moan when kids don't know about it, or don't want to celebrate it, or when the day in question is sidelined because it is perceived as boring - Sakhis and Ithiaas only go so far.

 

Who chose not to tell those children about gurpurabs. The more you find out and share with your children the more they will undetstand about sikhi. I think a parents course should be developed which teaches sikh parents about what to talk to the choldren about.

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      ਭਾਵ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰੀ ਹੈ ਔ ਸਾਧਨ ਰੂਪ ਸਿੰਗਾਰੁ (ਸਾਜਿ) ਬਨਾ ਕਰ ਹਰੀ ਮੈਣ ਰਾਤੀ ਹੈ॥ 
      ਸਹਜਿ ਸਚੁ ਪਿਰੁ ਰਾਵਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਅੁਰ ਧਾਰਿ ॥ 
      ਹਰੀ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੋ ਰਿਦੇ ਮੈਣ ਧਾਰ ਕੇ ਸੁਖ ਰੂਪੁ ਪਾਰੇ ਕੇ ਆਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਸੁਭਾਵਕ ਹੀ ਭੋਗਾ 
      ਹੈ॥ 
      ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰੀ ਸਦਾ ਸੁੋਹਾਗਂਿ ਆਪਿ ਮੇਲੀ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ॥ 
      ਸੋ ਆਗਾਕਾਰੀ ਹੈ ਅਰ ਵਹੁ ਆਪ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਨੇ ਮੇਲ ਲਈ ਹੈ ਇਸ ਤੇ ਓਹੁ ਸਦਾ 
      ਸੁਹਾਗਂਿ ਹੈ॥ 
      ਨਾਨਕ ਪਿਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਦਾ ਸੁੋਹਾਗਂਿ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ 
      ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੈਣ ਜਿਸਨੇ ਹਰੀ ਰੂਪ ਸਜ਼ਚਾ ਭਰਤਾ ਪਾਯਾ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਜੀਵ ਰੂਪ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ 
      ਸਦਾ ਹੀ ਸੁਹਾਗਂਿ ਹੈ॥੧॥    Like a woman separated from her husband goes to ravish (be ravished by) other men, the man who turns away from Parmesar goes to serve devis and devtas. She has forsaken the Husband (Waheguru) in her heart and has been ensnared with duja bhav. She thinks it to be sweet, and eats it with relish, increasing the disease. She has abandoned the pure Husband and suffers separation. The one who is faithful to the Guru does devotional worship of Waheguru and embellishes herself being in God. Enshrining the name of Waheguru in her heart she obtains bliss. Obedient, she is always in marital bliss and the Creator Himself has allowed her to meet Him. Guru Nanak Dev ji says that whoever has found the true Husband, she is the true holder of marital bliss.  
    • Fair enough. While I'm in agreement that idol worship is not part of Sikhi, I believe the tuks you have posted have been posted out of context here. The bani above is referring to those whose spritual mode of worship is only idol worship. Those who think that Parmeshwar resides only in the idol. Those who have no other forms of worship and still think they are saved by doing puja of a pathar/image. That's not really what's happening in the video (I don't think so anyway). Do bear in mind I'm not completely justifying what they're doing. I would need to know more details before I could personally comment what side of the fence this lands on. For example, if this is a regular thing or only done on a certain day i.e. Vishwakarma Day etc, what they believe about Vishwakarma and what he represents for them, and what their intentions are as well as what their sharda and bhaavna is, in performing this Aarti? And of course their maksad. As I always say, things are rarely black and white.  
    • Brother, the reason we (or at least, some Sikhs) do Aarti of Guru Sahib is because we worship Guru Sahib. The reason it's a "big deal" is because it's spiritual adultery. Even if it were accepted that you can do aarti of a saint or elder, they are not doing that. They are not doing Aarti of Lord Vishwakarma, but rather of a picture of Vishwakarma, which sets them up for the spiritual transgression of idol worship. Guru Nanak Dev ji on idol worship: ਸਲੋਕ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Salok Mehalaa 1 || ਸਾਰੰਗ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ: (ਮਃ ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅੰਗ ੧੨੪੦  ਘਰਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਭਾ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ In your home, is the Lord God, along with all your other gods. ਪੂਜ ਕਰੇ ਰਖੈ ਨਾਵਾਲਿ ॥ You wash your stone gods and worship them. ਕੁੰਗੂ ਚੰਨਣੁ ਫੁਲ ਚੜਾਏ ॥ You offer saffron, sandalwood and flowers.   ਪੈਰੀ ਪੈ ਪੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਮਨਾਏ ॥ Falling at their feet, you try so hard to appease them.   ਮਾਣੂਆ ਮੰਗਿ ਮੰਗਿ ਪੈਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਖਾਇ ॥ Begging, begging from other people, you get things to wear and eat. ਅੰਧੀ ਕੰਮੀ ਅੰਧ ਸਜਾਇ ॥ For your blind deeds, you will be blindly punished. ਭੁਖਿਆ ਦੇਇ ਨ ਮਰਦਿਆ ਰਖੈ ॥ Your idol does not feed the hungry, or save the dying. ਅੰਧਾ ਝਗੜਾ ਅੰਧੀ ਸਥੈ ॥੧॥ The blind assembly argues in blindness. ||1|| ਸਾਰੰਗ ਵਾਰ (ਮਃ ੪) (੯) ਸ. (੧) ੧:੮ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੪੧ ਪੰ. ੨ 
      Raag Sarang Guru Nanak Dev   Guru Arjan Dev ji in Raag Bharo: ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Mehala 5 || ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਕਹਤੇ ਦੇਵ ॥ Those who call a stone their god ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ ॥ Their service is useless. ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕੀ ਪਾਂਈ ਪਾਇ ॥ Those who fall at the feet of a stone god ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਘਾਲ ਅਜਾਂਈ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ - their work is wasted in vain. ||1||   The people who do this (idol worship) will sink in the worldly ocean: ਕਬੀਰ ਪਾਹਨੁ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ Kabeer, someone sets up a stone idol and all the world worships it as the Lord. ਇਸ ਭਰਵਾਸੇ ਜੋ ਰਹੇ ਬੂਡੇ ਕਾਲੀ ਧਾਰ ॥੧੩੬॥ Those who hold to this belief will be drowned in the river of darkness. ||136|| ਸਲੋਕ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) (੧੩੬):੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੭੧ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
      Salok Bhagat Kabir    
    • Like I said maybe they shouldn't have been doing Aarti, not in the Gurdwara anyway. But the picture in itself shouldn't be a problem. Mahapurkhs have been known to keep pictures of Devi Devte, they weren't allergic to imagery, especially imagery you could say that makes up "Dharam" as a whole. Maybe not the picture shown in the video, but such imagery was commonplace and is part of our heritage. As is evident from the small selection of pictures I posted. The level of Hinduphobia amongst our people borders on idiocy.
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