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AjeetSinghPunjabi

Is Sikhism really hijacked by Jattism ?

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3 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

You said brahmins have created the current reservation order in india ! 

Infact brahmans despise it the most ! Because the current reservation policy is totally against upper castes, including brahmans . 

Let us first admit we have failed . I don't want to beat dead our community over this but considering how good sikhi is in theory but still lagging a little behind in practice. Although we still have good elements like langar , open gurudwaras for all and so on . We just need to move a little further . 

Thanks 

I don't see any Brahmins who are ready to burn the Manusmriti texts or ready to give up the privileges which come with taking the best and most influential jobs.  I don't believe that we as Sikhs have failed but it is the system which is interfering with us that is the cause of our problems.  You cannot relieve the symptoms of an illness without locating the cause of it. 

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4 hours ago, proactive said:

Khalsa college was founded by the manager of Sri Nankana Sahib management committee  in the mid-1930s mainly as a college where the lower castes that Dr Ambedkar had promised would convert to Sikhism would be taught. We need to beware when accepting the anti-Akali dal trope that the Akalis or Jat leaders refused to admit Dr Ambedkar to Sikhi. This is a lie that has gained currency especially after 1984 as a way of showing that the Akali Dal has never had the best interests of the Sikhs. Dr Ambedkar did show an inclination to become a Sikh and it was because of this that Sardar Narain Singh the manager of the Sri Nankana Sahib estate management committee was chosen to go to Bombay and set up a college for the lower caste converts. If the Akalis really did not have lower caste Sikhs then why did they set up missionary centres to convert low caste Hindus to Sikhism in places like Hapur, Aligarh and even places in the south such as Mysore? The SGPC even set up a printing press in Bombay ostensibly for the use of Dr Ambedkar to print his newspaper and books. It goes to the credit of Dr Ambedkar that he returned all the money spent on the printing press when he did not convert to Sikhism. 

There might be other reasons for why he did not convert to Sikhism but to blame the SGPC or Akali Dal or 'Jats' is clearly false. 

With regard to Sikhism being hijacked by Jats that is not the case at all. Do Jats place Bhagat Dhanna Jat as a Guru equivalent to the Gurus as some others castes have done lately with Bhagats of their background? That would be hijacking a religion. Has any Jat Sikh ever expressed disappointment that none of the Gurus belonged to a Jat background? 

The fact is that Sikhs from a Jat background are majority of Sikhs and hence they control most of the institutions of the Panth which is natural given that we use democratic means to select our leaders. If the Jat Sikhs were say, 2% of the Sikh population and they had the influence and leadership positions they have now ( just as Brahmins have in Hindusm) then it would fair to say that they have hijacked Sikhism. In places like Delhi where the number of Jat Sikhs among the Sikh population are miniscule there are no Jat Sikhs in leadership positions. 

I understood the hindus came back to him with an offer of low and backward caste quotas for jobs and education if he did not convert his followers to sikhi...

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16 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Anyways, coming to point , Is Sikhi really totally dominated by Jatts

Yes, to an extent. To this day many Jatts seem to erroneously think they are the 'true' Sikhs, and ironically that they follow original unaltered Sikhi. As someone from a Jatt background I have witnessed many conversations between the oldies which encapsulate the above.

Example convo:

Oldie 1: Oh did you know Mr A Singhs son is getting married to Mr B Singhs daughter, but they're *insert non-Jatt caste here*?

Oldie 2: Really? What can you do, kids these days. Chalo *insert non-Jatt caste here* call themselves Sikhs too, they go to the Gurdwara, and I'm sure they do lots of seva. Plus so and so was a *insert non-Jatt surname* too.

Both: Sikhi doesn't have caste really though but your Jaat is your Jaat HANNA?! Non-Jatt castes have non-Sikh traditions though, we don't.

Both: Eh vi gal sai ah.

Etc, etc etc. I'm sure we all get the picture.

When I was younger I was baffled by these convos and what these comments meant, and it wasn't until I was older that I realised that this is what casteism was. When I joined in I would ask what was meant and say things along the lines of "but we know they're quite obviously Sikh, why are you saying it in such a way as to imply they are not Sikh just because they aren't Jatt?" To which their reply would be...well nothing, or a sentence which just trails off and stops midway through.

It's so deeply ingrained into the Jatt psyche. However, we can't put all the blame on Jatts though, others castes can be just as guilty.

It's not just Sikhs who practise casteism btw, it extends to many Pakistani Punjabis too (mostly the Jatt ones) and to other Indian Muslim communities such as Khatris. I know of many who would absolutely not accept people of different castes for their kids.

 

Anyway here's who I believe is truly responsible for this caste nonsense:

 

Lol

Edited by MrDoaba

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14 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Human beings like many other species are organised into hierarchies. 

The caste system is a hierarchy, you can destroy this hierarchy but it will be replaced by another hierarchy. 

Humans have always discriminated amongst each other for various reasons.If it is not based on caste it will be something else. 

There is a phemenon happening with Gurdwarae I hear from relatives in California.

Gurdwarae aren't based in commitees where one is Jatts dominated or Tharkhan dominated. 

They are seperated by what is happening locally. There are different gurdwarae based on if you are a "trucker" or a "doctor". 

I understand what you're saying. But we have to go against our primal urges and rise our base behaviour. Thats what our gurus taught us too. The occupation based gurudwara news is a totally hilarious thing . It just adds more weight to the argument that Sikhs / punjabis tend to see gurudwaras as more of a social get-together and community center thing than center of preaching and spirituality . 

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi

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10 hours ago, proactive said:

Khalsa college was founded by the manager of Sri Nankana Sahib management committee  in the mid-1930s mainly as a college where the lower castes that Dr Ambedkar had promised would convert to Sikhism would be taught. We need to beware when accepting the anti-Akali dal trope that the Akalis or Jat leaders refused to admit Dr Ambedkar to Sikhi. This is a lie that has gained currency especially after 1984 as a way of showing that the Akali Dal has never had the best interests of the Sikhs. Dr Ambedkar did show an inclination to become a Sikh and it was because of this that Sardar Narain Singh the manager of the Sri Nankana Sahib estate management committee was chosen to go to Bombay and set up a college for the lower caste converts. If the Akalis really did not have lower caste Sikhs then why did they set up missionary centres to convert low caste Hindus to Sikhism in places like Hapur, Aligarh and even places in the south such as Mysore? The SGPC even set up a printing press in Bombay ostensibly for the use of Dr Ambedkar to print his newspaper and books. It goes to the credit of Dr Ambedkar that he returned all the money spent on the printing press when he did not convert to Sikhism. 

There might be other reasons for why he did not convert to Sikhism but to blame the SGPC or Akali Dal or 'Jats' is clearly false. 

With regard to Sikhism being hijacked by Jats that is not the case at all. Do Jats place Bhagat Dhanna Jat as a Guru equivalent to the Gurus as some others castes have done lately with Bhagats of their background? That would be hijacking a religion. Has any Jat Sikh ever expressed disappointment that none of the Gurus belonged to a Jat background? 

The fact is that Sikhs from a Jat background are majority of Sikhs and hence they control most of the institutions of the Panth which is natural given that we use democratic means to select our leaders. If the Jat Sikhs were say, 2% of the Sikh population and they had the influence and leadership positions they have now ( just as Brahmins have in Hindusm) then it would fair to say that they have hijacked Sikhism. In places like Delhi where the number of Jat Sikhs among the Sikh population are miniscule there are no Jat Sikhs in leadership positions. 

Thanks. This post makes much sense.

I too had a feeling that the reason Ambedkar wasn't so actively encouraged by Akalis and SGPC to become a sikh is because somewhere in psyche, due to our past, we still have the haunting fear of hindus again trying to subvert sikhi . Fear of assimilation is a valid fear in our minds. 

Perhaps SGPC saw ambedkar with distrust too. After all he was a "hindu" before conversion to buddhism. Perhaps the SGPC feared losing the hard-earned grip our sikh institutions and gurudwaras to perhaps brahminical proxies like Ambedkar.

TOO BAD that we later on realized 70 yrs later that Ambedkar was a genuine guy and definitely not a hindutva proxy. If we had his followers converted , my own city mumbai would have had a massive sikh community in itself. 

I have also heard similar 90 lakh kabir panthis were turned off when they wanted to take amrit. But i guess such sudden surge of neo-converts always raises suspicion from the sikhs in power (SGPC, akalis, etc) because of two possible reasons

1) The SGPC, Akalis fear losing their chair to neo-converts. Thus they're greedy.

2) They're genuinely suspicious about these new guys, in the interest of panth.

I will give the SGPC, Akalis the benefit of doubt and give them number (2). 

 

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Let us look at Sikh history in regards to Mahapurakhs from Jat background.

Bhagat Dhanna ji were recognised as Devotee.

Baba Budda ji were GurSevak.

Bhai Dharam Singh ji were one of Punj Piyaras.

If you look at their occupation 

Bhagat Dhanna ji - Farmer

Baba Budda ji - Sevadaar/Granthi ji

Bhai Dharam Singh ji - Saint/Soldier

They followed different paths  & contributed to Sikhi in their own distinct way.

Now if we consider any one of them as our Role Model then it's best to follow that particular track ie Bhagati marg or Seva marg or Sant-Sipahi marg.

Problem is we are all hybrid ie mix of more than one characteristic nobody is a Pure ( Bhagat, Sevadar, Sant-Sipahi ).

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2 hours ago, singhbj singh said:

Let us look at Sikh history in regards to Mahapurakhs from Jat background.

Bhagat Dhanna ji were recognised as Devotee.

Baba Budda ji were GurSevak.

Bhai Dharam Singh ji were one of Punj Piyaras.

If you look at their occupation 

Bhagat Dhanna ji - Farmer

Baba Budda ji - Sevadaar/Granthi ji

Bhai Dharam Singh ji - Saint/Soldier

They followed different paths  & contributed to Sikhi in their own distinct way.

Now if we consider any one of them as our Role Model then it's best to follow that particular track ie Bhagati marg or Seva marg or Sant-Sipahi marg.

Problem is we are all hybrid ie mix of more than one characteristic nobody is a Pure ( Bhagat, Sevadar, Sant-Sipahi ).

Being an amalgamation is a problem now is it? Guru Gobind Singh Ji openly proclaims in the Sarloh Granth:

'The Supreme Being has bequeathed the Khalsa with the virtues of saints, scholars, monarchs, warriors, philanthropists, monotheists, hermits, ascetics, combatants, and of those who bestride the world.'

-Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji, v.513.

But yes, your opinion must be more valid. 

The main point, as I see it, was to question as to why Jatts in particular harp on about caste and set off a chain reaction among other castes which they perceive as being low vis-a-vis the Panth. You, however, run to the veneer of history to digress from the topic and imply: "oh well you cannot criticize some Jatt's penchant for Hindu thought or otherwise you are criticizing Gurmukhs etc." 

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9 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

I understood the hindus came back to him with an offer of low and backward caste quotas for jobs and education if he did not convert his followers to sikhi...

The low quota came at a time when the Hindu hegemony was threatened by conversion; secondly it offered Ambedkar something which the minorities weren't able to offer him- a position on the constitutional assembly of India. 

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4 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I understand what you're saying. But we have to go against our primal urges and rise our base behaviour. Thats what our gurus taught us too. The occupation based gurudwara news is a totally hilarious thing . It just adds more weight to the argument that Sikhs / punjabis tend to see gurudwaras as more of a social get-together and community center thing than center of preaching and spirituality . 

That is a big part of the problem.  

Our biological hardwiring is human and we are going to human.

It takes a lot to overcome these primal urges and parts of human nature. 

I think when we deal with non-Sikhs we as Sikhs tend to overcome some of our base human instincts but we get stung very badly because we think because we overcome they have to which is not always the case. 

Gurdwarae in the West are like social centres because they are few of the places sangat can congregate with one another. The Langar hall is where a great deal of socialisation takes place. Gurdwarae in the west for all their faults do this social stuff very well. You see community halls built, football/hockey and sports team set up, Punjabi classes etc.

What is happening with Gurdwarae these days is that they are becoming vanity projects. 

I guess this is what happens when people become affluent. 

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12 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I guess this is what happens when people become affluent. 

And when there's not so much direct external threat . As it was back in the days of islamic invaders 

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50 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

And when there's not so much direct external threat . As it was back in the days of islamic invaders 

Complacency sets in very quickly with our people.

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23 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

your way of writing suggests your intelligence level ! 

Write in a way in which other people treat you seriously 

Yes, i'm sure you are a gentleman of the highest order

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if jatts are so evil, why are non-jatts  embracing cults with jatts as their gurus, eg Radha Soami and Sacha Sauda

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6 hours ago, 13Mirch said:

Being an amalgamation is a problem now is it? Guru Gobind Singh Ji openly proclaims in the Sarloh Granth:

'The Supreme Being has bequeathed the Khalsa with the virtues of saints, scholars, monarchs, warriors, philanthropists, monotheists, hermits, ascetics, combatants, and of those who bestride the world.'

-Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji, v.513.

But yes, your opinion must be more valid. 

The main point, as I see it, was to question as to why Jatts in particular harp on about caste and set off a chain reaction among other castes which they perceive as being low vis-a-vis the Panth. You, however, run to the veneer of history to digress from the topic and imply: "oh well you cannot criticize some Jatt's penchant for Hindu thought or otherwise you are criticizing Gurmukhs etc." 

Honestly have never read Dasam Granth only some individual Bani's.

Have no knowledge about Sarabloh Granth so can't comment.

It took me three-four readings to understand what you are saying could you please post in simple English😊

Sorry for not connecting my last post to the topic. I wanted to highlight works of Mahapurakhs from Jat background to provoke thought process amongst readers.

Giving them a choice to follow any path.

 

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14 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Complacency sets in very quickly with our people.

Agreed 100%. It is the reason our community hasn't reached it maximum potential.

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