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MrDoaba

So I took a Ethnicity DNA Test...

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4 hours ago, TejS said:

I think if you want to learn Farsi on your own, that's great because learning another language is always fine and all. But what need do we have of Farsi, what need does it fulfill for our community? The Persians don't feel any affinity towards Punjabis, they aren't learning Punjabi as a community, so why should we be?

I think our quam has more worrisome things to tackle than reviving Farsi. We need to revive Gurmukhi and Punjabi among our community, because most of our youth does not know it.

I don't mean to be offensive, but I disagree with your comment.

No offence taken brother. It doesn't fulfill any need for our community per say, but as far as intellectual pursuits go, it's probably one of the more productive ones. Then again, that's just my opinion. I understand what you mean about Persians not feeling any affinity for Punjabi but I believe that's because it was Persian which influenced Punjabi, not the other way around, so naturally it would be of more benefit and make more sense for us to have a better understanding of Persian rather than them of Punjabi. I'm not by any means saying we should replace Punjabi and start teaching Persian in Gurdwaras, however, if there was an opportunity to learn an alternative language, Persian would be highly advantageous.

You're right in saying we have more pressing issues to deal with in our quam but at the same time, there's no harm in increasing your gyaan where possible. And of course you would only undertake such a task if you were proficient in Punjabi in the first place, otherwise it's pointless, so apologies - to clarify that comment was not meant for those youth who can't be bothered to learn Punjabi or won't learn it, or for those parents who think the language of whitey is enough.

 

4 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

The claim that we are Persian and then we proceed to call it Farsi which from what I understand is the Arab pronounciation for Persian because there is no "P" in the Arab alphabet. 

I was quite well aware of this but thanks anyway.

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24 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

No offence taken brother. It doesn't fulfill any need for our community per say, but as far as intellectual pursuits go, it's probably one of the more productive ones. Then again, that's just my opinion. I understand what you mean about Persians not feeling any affinity for Punjabi but I believe that's because it was Persian which influenced Punjabi, not the other way around, so naturally it would be of more benefit and make more sense for us to have a better understanding of Persian rather than them of Punjabi. I'm not by any means saying we should replace Punjabi and start teaching Persian in Gurdwaras, however, if there was an opportunity to learn an alternative language, Persian would be highly advantageous.

You're right in saying we have more pressing issues to deal with in our quam but at the same time, there's no harm in increasing your gyaan where possible. And of course you would only undertake such a task if you were proficient in Punjabi in the first place, otherwise it's pointless, so apologies - to clarify that comment was not meant for those youth who can't be bothered to learn Punjabi or won't learn it, or for those parents who think the language of whitey is enough.

 

I was quite well aware of this but thanks anyway.

Persian would have influenced Punjabi because Punjab was under the control of Mughals and the likes of Lodhi who were central asians and Afghans where Persian was lingua franca. 

In the same way English is lingua franca for Modern India. 

 

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1 hour ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Persian would have influenced Punjabi because Punjab was under the control of Mughals and the likes of Lodhi who were central asians and Afghans where Persian was lingua franca. 

In the same way English is lingua franca for Modern India. 

 

before that even because there was trade paths back and forth

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56 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

before that even because there was trade paths back and forth

However, it is always assumed influence flows in one direction.

Ironically in pre-Islamic Persian empire the lingua franca was Aramaic. 

Which is interesting because the scripts of Central Asian Buddhism were in Karaghost script which was a script based on the Aramaic one.

 

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punjab was part of the persian empire

 

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When sikhs/ panjabis had the chance to spread panjabi/ gurmukhi. We did not. We used  arabic script and persian language during maharaja Ranjit Singhs time. I wonder how sikhs felt about that? Having a different language for religion and different for worldly matters? Tho the 10th guru did try to bridge that  gap. Also most hindus or brahmins called persian malesh bhasa and would try not to use it. Are we becoming the same way with nonPunjabi languages? That it isnt worth it to learn them...i think most sikhs should try to learn sanskrit and farsi as that is where punjabis roots are. 

Also persian is pretty contaminated with arabic. They were trying to revive pre-arabic persian. So no language is safe

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4 minutes ago, TejS said:

Well then why not learn Arabic while you're at it as well. I'll argue that Punjabi has more words borrowed from Arabic than Farsi, words like haq, rabb, dunya, sawaal, jawaab, kitaab, quam, insan, mushkil, mubarakan, maut, qanun, ijat, barkat, shukr, mujrim, qursi - these are just a few of the many that I recall.  

What I'm trying to get at it is that just because we have borrowed words from other languages, which is a very commonly seen phenomenon in linguistics and is referred to as loanwords, doesn't mean our language has roots in the language borrowed from. Punjabi and Punjabis have no roots in Farsi or Arabic, so I don't know why some of our own claim that. If anything Punjabi has roots in Sanskrit, but it is an apabrahmsha meaning a corrupted version of Sanskrit - like all present day Indo-Aryan languages.

You're right in saying that when Sikhs had the chance to spread Punjabi/Gurmukhi, we didn't, and that was our biggest mistake. Honestly, we could have been like the Arabs of India, we could have spread our culture and language to the ends of South Asia, but unfortunately due to poor leaders we failed to do so.

And I reiterate again, learning a new language is a great intellectual pursuit and everyone should take part, but don't suggest that it is imperative that Sikhs learn Farsi or Arabic for that matter because we have roots in those languages.

What is interesting about Persian is that after the Arab conquests in the 7th century, Persians were not able to speak their own mother tongue and were threatened to have their tongues cut out if they did.

You are correct about the amount of arab loanwords in Punjabi. . I think some people think it came from Persian but do not realise that at one time Persian contained one third of it's vocabulary from Arabic but I think that has been reversed some what.

Language is more than loanwords, it is grammar and sentence structure too. 

The reality is the "persian " in the Punjabi language is the result of conquest. 

There seems to be a degree of inferiority complex by some of our people.

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On 15/11/2017 at 9:27 PM, TejS said:

If anything Punjabi has roots in Sanskrit

I agree that Punjabi has its roots in Sanskrit and in fact holds more importance over Farsi, but that doesn't mean Farsi should be cast aside. If we cannot agree on the degree of connection between Punjabi and Farsi then a consideration should be made as to where the bar is set for Sikhs in pursuit of it specifically, if not for the writings of Bhai Nand Lal Ji, then at least for Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Zafarnama.

On the topic of academic pursuits, an effort should be made without question to acquire good hand knowledge of Sanskrit.

It's worth mentioning that Vedic Sanskrit and Old Persian actually share some similarities.

 

On 15/11/2017 at 9:47 PM, Ranjeet01 said:

Language is more than loanwords, it is grammar and sentence structure too.

Punjabi, aside from having loanwords, also shares the same word order as Farsi - Subject, Object, Verb. Although this could well be a coincidence, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't.

On 15/11/2017 at 9:47 PM, Ranjeet01 said:

There seems to be a degree of inferiority complex by some of our people.

What has given you the impression that anyone in this thread has an inferiority complex? For the majority of us, Punjabi is our maa boli and takes precedence over any other language. The fact that some have a piqued interest in a secondary language which unquestionably has had a significant influence on our mother tongue, whether through conquest or not, does not all of sudden warrant the accusation that one has an inferiority complex. Punjabi has many dialects, some which are more Persianized and some which are more Sanskritized, and even that doesn't determine how Punjabi is spoken - a lot of it is down to personal preference and exposure. I have yet to find someone who speaks Pre-Persian Punjabi or has completely removed any Persian influence. Punjabi during the emergence of Sikhi most likely already had quite a degree of Persian influence, possibly not as much as today, but it still had it nonetheless. It has evolved like most languages and we are talking about the form relative to Punjabis and Sikhs throughout early modern history and current day.

My DNA test didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, and had it come back with higher percentage of Indigenous Indian, the topic of Punjabis/Sikhs learning Farsi would still be under discussion and actually already has been. Likewise, the fact that many Punjabis are more ethnically Persian doesn't mean we are denying our actual heritage - Bharati. While I despise the politics of modern day India, the fact remains that Punjab culturally, geographically, linguistically, socially, and religiously was, is, and will always be a part of Bharat despite any land borders past, present, or future, and any political designations. A fact that many Sikhs find bitter, and a fact which if in agreement with, will also surely cause the term 'inferiority complex' to be bandied about.

Anyway, it's not as if I've been suggesting we all apply for Iranian Citizenship at the earliest possible chance and start stuffing our faces with kabobs now is it.

These days in order to qualify as someone who doesn't have an inferiority complex, you must be a Pro-Khalistani Singh Sabhia who follows Reform 'Sikhism', and believe all Sikhs appeared on earth through immaculate conception and came with their own pure culture and divine language which to this day has been entirely uninfluenced by outside factors.

 ! پیروزی به هندوستان

Edited by MrDoaba

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On 11/11/2017 at 5:25 PM, MrDoaba said:

After waiting ages to take a DNA test, I finally got around to it recently. The results were, for the most part, what I expected.

Here's my estimate:

Asia - 85.4%

  • South Asian - 79.9%
  • West Asian (Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Caucasus, Turkey) - 4.3%
  • Central Asian (Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazahkstan) - 1.4%

Europe - 14.6%

North and West Europe

  • Irish, Scottish, and Welsh - 11.6%
  • Scandinavian - 3.0%

Even though these are only estimates, they give an idea of my ethnicity in a broad sense. Nonetheless 14.6% is still considered a fairly large proportion in an estimate, and in all honesty was completely unexpected. My knowledge on DNA and genealogy are probably basic at best but from what I've read such a large percentage of the European could be traced back as early as the 5th or 6th generation before me!

This estimate didn't really tell me much as I would have liked to know so I decided to use GEDmatch to get a more in-depth picture. The results were certainly interesting (Jagsaw Singh if you're still around I'm sure you'll be the most pleased). For the sake of the topic I'll mention that I'm Punjabi Jatt.

This is what I found out:

Baloch - 37.94% (The term Baloch is used here to loosely describe Persian origin)

South Indian - 29.43% (South Indian here refers to indigenous or native Indian)

NE-Euro - 11.70% (oddly the Baltic region)

Caucasian  - 11.30% (Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan - again part of the Greater Persian Empire)

SW-Asian - 2.28% (ambiguously referring to Persian, Caucasian, and Arabian)

Mediterranean - 2.25% (most likely Greek, Cypriot, Turkish)

The rest is negligible.

You are also given an approximation how closely you are linked and compare to the individual populations of the sampling done by the genealogists, here are the top ten from highest to lowest:

1) Punjabi-Jatt-Sikh
2) Punjabi-Jatt-Muslim
3) Punjabi-Khatri
4) Pushtikar-Brahmin
5) Kashmiri-Pandit
6) Punjabi
7) Kashmiri
8) Punjabi-Brahmin
9) Rajasthani-Brahmin
10) Singapore-Indian

 

What do you think? I was surprised at some of the detail it went into and some of it was actually expected - I have always explained to people how we very likely had Persian and possibly some European ancestors. Although I probably won't, personally I would love to lay claim to my Persian heritage!

Has anybody here taken a test?

What labels, if any, do I use now...Persian Jatt  :rofl

I think the moral here is we shouldn't be so narrow-minded.

 

well done.

I had one done some time ago and so did a good friend of mine. I needed it at the time because i was having an identity crisis that was mostly due to my non-punjjabi/non-brown surroundings   >>>It 's when i became proud of my ancestry origins and realised that jatts weren a RACE of people and not really a cast>as most sikhs think.

Recommend you have a good read read of these books below........

History of the Jats by by Kalika Ranjan Qanungo

Ancestral Roots of the Jats: DNA Revelations...by David G Mahal

also check the link  http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/17669/8/08_chapter 1.pdf

You should get a better understanding about the general and distinct physiques and features of jat race. Surprisingly you should learn that jat comes from the word "ajaat" that means "casteless"..

Edited by JUSTAJATT
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14 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

I agree that Punjabi has its roots in Sanskrit and in fact holds more importance over Farsi, but that doesn't mean Farsi should be cast aside. If we cannot agree on the degree of connection between Punjabi and Farsi then a consideration should be made as to where the bar is set for Sikhs in pursuit of it specifically, if not for the writings of Bhai Nand Lal Ji, then at least for Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Zafarnama.

On the topic of academic pursuits, an effort should be made without question to acquire good hand knowledge of Sanskrit.

It's worth mentioning that Vedic Sanskrit and Old Persian actually share some similarities.

 

Punjabi, aside from having loanwords, also shares the same word order as Farsi - Subject, Object, Verb. Although this could well be a coincidence, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't.

What has given you the impression that anyone in this thread has an inferiority complex? For the majority of us, Punjabi is our maa boli and takes precedence over any other language. The fact that some have a piqued interest in a secondary language which unquestionably has had a significant influence on our mother tongue, whether through conquest or not, does not all of sudden warrant the accusation that one has an inferiority complex. Punjabi has many dialects, some which are more Persianized and some which are more Sanskritized, and even that doesn't determine how Punjabi is spoken - a lot of it is down to personal preference and exposure. I have yet to find someone who speaks Pre-Persian Punjabi or has completely removed any Persian influence. Punjabi during the emergence of Sikhi most likely already had quite a degree of Persian influence, possibly not as much as today, but it still had it nonetheless. It has evolved like most languages and we are talking about the form relative to Punjabis and Sikhs throughout early modern history and current day.

My DNA test didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, and had it come back with higher percentage of Indigenous Indian, the topic of Punjabis/Sikhs learning Farsi would still be under discussion and actually already has been. Likewise, the fact that many Punjabis are more ethnically Persian doesn't mean we are denying our actual heritage - Bharati. While I despise the politics of modern day India, the fact remains that Punjab culturally, geographically, linguistically, socially, and religiously was, is, and will always be a part of Bharat despite any land borders past, present, or future, and any political designations. A fact that many Sikhs find bitter, and a fact which if in agreement with, will also surely cause the term 'inferiority complex' to be bandied about.

Anyway, it's not as if I've been suggesting we all apply for Iranian Citizenship at the earliest possible chance and start stuffing our faces with kabobs now is it.

These days in order to qualify as someone who doesn't have an inferiority complex, you must be a Pro-Khalistani Singh Sabhia who follows Reform 'Sikhism', and believe all Sikhs appeared on earth through immaculate conception and came with their own pure culture and divine language which to this day has been entirely uninfluenced by outside factors.

 ! پیروزی به هندوستان

I said "some" seem to have a "degree " of inferiority complex.

It's like English language. It's a Germanic language coming from Angles who were a tribe/people from Northern Germany like the Saxons which is why they call anglo speaking people Anglo -Saxon. 

If we use the Punjabi language analogy by "some" of our people then all the English people are German. 

However,  if you have ever been to Germany (like Saxony states where Saxons came from) and have a look at the German compared to the average English person then you will notice a big difference. I would say the average German is far blonder,  taller and even their features are slightly different. 

What would be likely is that the Anglo Saxon migration would have a bigger linguistic and cultural impact but a minimal genetic impact. 

Then we have had the Norman invasion, the word "Norman" comes from the word "Norsemen " who were Vikings that settled in Normandy in Northern France. 

Since they were French speakers,  I am sure that a lot of French loan words were introduced into the English language but I'm sure the English are not French.

However, the Brits (people of England,Scotland, Ireland and Wales) are related to Brittany in Northern France which is why Britain is called "Great Britain". 

Like I said before there is some cultural overlap but it is not simple as we like to think.

Another example are the Azeris of Northern Iran. Azeris are the same stock as the Persians who after being run over by the Turkic speaking peoples changed over their language from Iranian/Persian related to a Turkic one. However, they are not genetically Mongols or Turks from Siberia. Same can be said in regards to modern Turkey to some extent.

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3 hours ago, TejS said:

Why shouldn’t Sikhs set aside Farsi? It serves us no purpose. As a community, we have no need for Farsi at all. Sure, as an individual, you can learn Farsi for your personal interest, but don’t go on with the community having to give some importance to Farsi. As for the writings of Bhai Nand Lal Ji, well he was born in Afghanistan, where they spoke and still speak a dialect of Farsi, and so he was taught that language from an early age and it was the language spoken around him, thus he began to write poetry in that language from an early age. As for the Zafarnama, well let’s not forget that Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote it to address Aurangzeb, a Mughal Emperor, who spoke Farsi, the official language of the Mughal Empire. So I don’t see it as a surprise that he would compose it in Farsi. And one doesn’t need to learn a whole new language such as Farsi to understand the Zafarnama, there are Punjabi translations of it.

You know I don’t want to sound like a right-winger but we should actually attempt to remove Arabic/Persian words from our language, and replace them with Sanskrit. I say this because the nature in which the Perso-Arabic influence entered Punjabi is not a pleasant one. And I say Sanskrit because it was the language of our ancestors, it’s as dear to us as is Punjabi. In fact, Punjabi is the closest apabrahmsha to Ancient Sanskrit, even more so than Hindi. When the Arabs forced Islam and Arabic onto the Persians, they resisted and cleansed their language of all Arabic influence. They even replaced religious terminology such as Allah with Khudah, salah with namaz, ramadan wth ramzan, as to preserve their language and self-respect. We could learn a thing or two from them, of course I’m not saying that we should go back and change Gurbani, that’s a dire no, but we can remove infleunces from our lexicon today.

No Punjabi, no matter what their caste, no matter how they look is ethnically Persian. We do not share a significant genetic overlap with Persians to consider ourselves ethnically similar. They cluster with Caucus/West Asians and we with Central/South Asians. And here is where inferiority shows, why not be proud and accept your own ethnicity. A Punjabi is a Punjabi and just that, why draw similarities to other ethnic groups when such similarities do not exist. 

And just as a side note, the Vedic Aryans (our ancestors) and the Iranic Aryans (Iranians) were not exactly friendly, they were in fact dire enemies that demonized each other. A whole war and exodus was waged, which is described in the Rig Ved.

In Afghanistan, the Persian dialect is known as Dari.  This is spoken predominantly by the Tajiks whilst Pathans speak Pashto. 

There isn't a lot of love between Afghans and Iranians either. 

The modern Iranian generally have a more olive type complexion than we do. Georgians and Armenians resemble the Iranian more than we do.

We as Punjabis ga-ga when we see someone with green eyes and then claim Persian/Greek ancestory when if it really was the common we would not even bat an eye-lid. 

There is a subtext of what is going on. The reality is that as a subcontinental people for several thousand years we have been invaded, pillaged and plundered.  It brings great shame. The only great thing that has come out of our homeland in the last 2000 years is Sikhi. However,  having Hindu ancestory brings great shame because we see it as being weak and cowardly. Plus with everything going in the last 4 decades has pushed some of our people to completely disown this part and create this new ancestory. 

There is an expression,  " Yesterday's low caste hindu who becomes today's muslim will tomorrow claim Persian /Arab ancestory "

I think that some level we are doing the same. 

 

 

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On 19/11/2017 at 8:12 AM, TejS said:

As for the writings of Bhai Nand Lal Ji, well he was born in Afghanistan, where they spoke and still speak a dialect of Farsi, and so he was taught that language from an early age and it was the language spoken around him, thus he began to write poetry in that language from an early age.

Does that mean his works are not for public consumption today as most the community have very little knowledge of Farsi?

On 19/11/2017 at 8:12 AM, TejS said:

As for the Zafarnama, well let’s not forget that Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote it to address Aurangzeb, a Mughal Emperor, who spoke Farsi, the official language of the Mughal Empire. So I don’t see it as a surprise that he would compose it in Farsi.

Personally for me, this reason does not suffice as to why the Zafarnama was composed in Farsi. Guru Gobind Singh Ji clearly had an affinity for Farsi beyond communicating with the Mughals in their official language.

We're not going to get anywhere in regards to this, so lets agree to disagree.

On 19/11/2017 at 8:12 AM, TejS said:

You know I don’t want to sound like a right-winger but we should actually attempt to remove Arabic/Persian words from our language, and replace them with Sanskrit. I say this because the nature in which the Perso-Arabic influence entered Punjabi is not a pleasant one. And I say Sanskrit because it was the language of our ancestors, it’s as dear to us as is Punjabi.

As someone who is somewhat in the Sanatan Sikh camp I don't disagree with you here. As I've stated in another post, I prefer Sanskritised or original Punjabi to the Persianised variety and my endeavour to promote Farsi albeit connected to Punjabi and Sikhi, does not imply that I am favouring or promoting any Perso-Arabic influence, or at least heavy and unnecessary influence, in vernacular/colloquial Punjabi. If one should choose to pursue Farsi, it should be as a standalone task.

The problem we face here though is uncalled-for accusations of Bhamanvaad, something which I have personally faced, including from family. With high rates of aversion to anything even remotely seen as 'Hindu', Sanatan/Puratan, and to traditional Sampardas, it will be no easy undertaking, especially when such strong post-Singh Sabha ideology is still being pushed onto the masses.

As for any purge attempted, where would the line be drawn? The link between Punjab and Sikhi is too close to completely remove influence.

On 19/11/2017 at 8:12 AM, TejS said:

No Punjabi, no matter what their caste, no matter how they look is ethnically Persian. We do not share a significant genetic overlap with Persians to consider ourselves ethnically similar. They cluster with Caucus/West Asians and we with Central/South Asians. And here is where inferiority shows, why not be proud and accept your own ethnicity. A Punjabi is a Punjabi and just that, why draw similarities to other ethnic groups when such similarities do not exist. 

And just as a side note, the Vedic Aryans (our ancestors) and the Iranic Aryans (Iranians) were not exactly friendly, they were in fact dire enemies that demonized each other. A whole war and exodus was waged, which is described in the Rig Ved.

I am proud of my own ethnicity, I haven't stated otherwise. Punjabis like a lot of ethnicities aren't homogeneous, but are still a distinct quam.

I haven't read the Rig Ved so I cannot comment but my point was about the two languages of the time, something which you yourself mentioned in the other thread.

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