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Bhaai Jugraj Singh says "Guru is God"?

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Guest MandeepB

Dear Sangath, I recently came accross a Amrathdhari Sikh who says "Guru's are actually God's, that Guru Nanak is the Lord of the Universe". I never heard that before, so i asked him who taught you that, he says, Basics of Sikhi, Bhaai Jugraj Singh's video: 

I am confused, i thought Guru's are human beings? Please advise. Thank you

 

 

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Yes, I heard it for the first time and could not believe it. However gurbani clearly states Gur Nanak, Nanak har soe.

SGGS Ang 864

The last line states

Guru Nanak is God himself

Edited by sikhni777
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2 hours ago, sikhni777 said:

Yes, I heard it for the first time and could not believe it. However gurbani clearly states Gur Nanak, Nanak har soe.

SGGS Ang 864

The last line states

Guru Nanak is God himself

gond Mahala 5 -

ang 864 

"

 
Gur Parmeshvar eko jaan||
guru prmysru eyko jwxu]
Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One.
 
jo Tis Bhava soe parwan || rahao||
jo iqsu BwvY so prvwxu ]1]rhwau]
Whatever pleases Him is acceptable and approved
 
Edited by jkvlondon
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2 hours ago, SikhInTheMaking said:

Also ive been told waheguru is everywhere and in everything 

 

 

 

 

ਤੂੰ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਭਰਿਪੁਰਿ ਲੀਣਾ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ  
तूं जलि थलि महीअलि भरिपुरि लीणा तूं आपे सरब समाणा ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ 
Ŧūʼn jal thal mahī▫al bẖaripur līṇā ṯūʼn āpe sarab samāṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o. 
Thou art fully contained in water, dry land nether and upper regions. Thou Thyself art pervading everywhere. Pause. 

SGGS ji Ang 731

🙏🏻 Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji

 

 

Jale Hari|| Thale Hari|| Ure Hari|| Bare Hari||1||51||

The Lord is in water. The Lord is on land. The Lord is in the heart. The Lord is in the forests.1.51.

Gire Hari|| Guphe Hari|| Chhite Hari|| Nabhe Hari||2||52||

The Lord is in he mountains. The Lord is in the cave. The Lord is in he earth. The Lord is in the sky. 2.52.

eehaan Hari|| oohaan Hari|| Jimi Hari|| Jamaa Hari||3||53||

The Lord is in here. The Lord is there. The Lord is in the earth. The Lord is in the sky. 3.53.

Alekh Hari|| Abhekh Hari|| Adokh Hari|| Advaikh Hari||4||54||

The Lord is Accountless. The Lord is guiseless. The Lord is blemishless. The Lord is sans duality.4.54.

Akaal Hari|| Apaal Hari|| Achhed Hari|| Abhed Hari||5||55||

The Lord is non-temporal. The Lord cannot be reated. The Lord is Indestructible. The Lord's secrets cannot be known. 5.55.

Ajantra Hari|| Amantra Hari|| Su tej Hari|| Atantra Hari||6||56||

The Lord is not in mystical digrams. The Lord is not in incantations. The Lord is of bright effulgence. The Lord is not in Tantras (magical formulas). 6.56.

Ajaat Hari|| Apaat Hari|| Amitra Hari|| Amaat Hari||7||57||

The Lord does not take birth. The Lord does not experience death. The Lord is without any friend. The Lord is without mother. 7.57.

Arog Hari|| Asok Hari|| Abharam Hari|| Akaram Hari||||8||58||

The Lord is without any ailment. The Lord is without grief, The Lord is Illusionless. The Lord is Actionless. 8.58.

 

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7 hours ago, Guest MandeepB said:

Dear Sangath, I recently came accross a Amrathdhari Sikh who says "Guru's are actually God's, that Guru Nanak is the Lord of the Universe". I never heard that before, so i asked him who taught you that, he says, Basics of Sikhi, Bhaai Jugraj Singh's video: 

I am confused, i thought Guru's are human beings? Please advise. Thank you

Quite astounding that you've never heard anyone say that Guru is God. Sikhs have always believed that until the new crop of 20th century "professors" came along to deny that fact in order to please their foreign masters.

I didn't watch the whole video, but props to Bhai Jugraj Singh for stating basic Sikh theology, which is that Guru is God.

If the Gurus were human beings (don't say "are"), then they are dead. Why follow what they say? They have no more authority than the average Joe.

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Gurus are avtaars of God.   God has taken many avtaars throughout the ages, but lets just focus on sikh gurus, as that's why we're here on the forum.

You have to understand that God is NOT the physical body/kapra/shell of the Guru avtaar, he is quite simply the Avtaar himself, and will continue to come and go as one, as he wishes.

I've seen these debates and confusions before and then sikhs start coming out with contradictions: such as how does mool mantar say he is ajooni?  but at the same time God is everywhere and in everything, meaning that we are just as much God as the person next door!....  it goes on and on...

Keeping it brief, I'm gonna suggest that we all keep a few rules in mind prior to raising questions.

1) Bani does NOT contradict. Never has and never will.   It is the truth, and the Truth can never contradict itself. Even in a court of law, if the accused or a witness contradicts themselves, then the Judge sees the truth, if any, as being distorted. So, if you find yourself seeing some contradiction in gurbani, then it's your understanding that is at fault and not the truth. You need to work on yourself to gain more gyaan.

2) Remember that we are born manukhs. Goal is to get to Gobind by becoming gurmukhs. ..

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥
Bẖa▫ī parāpaṯ mānukẖ ḏehurī▫ā.
This human body has been given to you.


ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥
Gobinḏ milaṇ kī ih ṯerī barī▫ā.
This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe
.

 

What makes us Man-ukhs?   ...simple set of equations given by an old member many years ago....

MAN= GOD + EGO(haumai)

Man -(minus) EGO = GOD

shed the 'I'(ego) and you are left with GOD.

Gurus had No EGO, no 'I', Their physical shells is what we related to with our physical eyes, but their inner selves and messages were pure God, nirankaar himself.

Dhan Guru Nanak tu heen Nirankaar.   Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, luckysingh99 said:

Gurus are avtaars of God.   God has taken many avtaars throughout the ages, but lets just focus on sikh gurus, as that's why we're here on the forum.

You have to understand that God is NOT the physical body/kapra/shell of the Guru avtaar, he is quite simply the Avtaar himself, and will continue to come and go as one, as he wishes.

I've seen these debates and confusions before and then sikhs start coming out with contradictions: such as how does mool mantar say he is ajooni?  but at the same time God is everywhere and in everything, meaning that we are just as much God as the person next door!....  it goes on and on...

Keeping it brief, I'm gonna suggest that we all keep a few rules in mind prior to raising questions.

1) Bani does NOT contradict. Never has and never will.   It is the truth, and the Truth can never contradict itself. Even in a court of law, if the accused or a witness contradicts themselves, then the Judge sees the truth, if any, as being distorted. So, if you find yourself seeing some contradiction in gurbani, then it's your understanding that is at fault and not the truth. You need to work on yourself to gain more gyaan.

2) Remember that we are born manukhs. Goal is to get to Gobind by becoming gurmukhs. ..

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥
Bẖa▫ī parāpaṯ mānukẖ ḏehurī▫ā.
This human body has been given to you.


ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥
Gobinḏ milaṇ kī ih ṯerī barī▫ā.
This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe
.

 

What makes us Man-ukhs?   ...simple set of equations given by an old member many years ago....

MAN= GOD + EGO(haumai)

Man -(minus) EGO = GOD

shed the 'I'(ego) and you are left with GOD.

Gurus had No EGO, no 'I', Their physical shells is what we related to with our physical eyes, but their inner selves and messages were pure God, nirankaar himself.

Dhan Guru Nanak tu heen Nirankaar.   Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. 

 

 

and never accept the titles pegambir prophet, teacher, spiritual guide etc  as they indicate human frailities as being present i.e. 5 chor, 

Guru Nanak dev ji will always be  

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3 hours ago, BhForce said:

Quite astounding that you've nev nr heard anyone say that Guru is God. S dnkhs have always believed that until the new crop of 20th century "professors" came along to deny that fact in order to please their foreign masters.

I didn't watch the whole video, but props to Bhai Jugraj Singh for stating basic Sikh theology, which is that Guru is God.

If the Gurus were human beings (don't say "are"), then they are dead. Why follow what they say? They have no more authority than the average Joe.

It certainly seems a Christian belief as they believe only In God. They believe Jesus to be his son, not his spirit or jot. However we believe all the Gurus had his jot. Not only that, but also Ram, Krishna etc were a roop of God, however In different yugs.

The whites have generally been more of a pagan worshipping people whereas India has generally had a long history of rishis and munis performing bhagti from quite a long while back. 

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Guest Ultimate

The Ultimate Teacher (Guru) = God

Guru Nanak prays to the primal Ultimate Guru = God

God is not born = ajooni (as per Mool Mantar)

... but is nevertheless present in all and throughout the Universe + beyond

 

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2 hours ago, sikhni777 said:

It certainly seems a Christian belief as they believe only In God. They believe Jesus to be his son, not his spirit or jot. However we believe all the Gurus had his jot. Not only that, but also Ram, Krishna etc were a roop of God, however In different yugs.

The whites have generally been more of a pagan worshipping people whereas India has generally had a long history of rishis and munis performing bhagti from quite a long while back. 

The Gurus didn't have jot of God.  They are God according to Gurbani.  Ram and Krishna are as much of roop of God as Mohammed as stated in Bachittar Natak. 

Everything has God's jot in it.  Dogs have God's jot in them.  Without God's jot nothing can exist.  Krishna and ram were given the duty to spread God's name on earth.  However they erected themselves as God on earth and made people chant their names.  Bachittar Natak says they never got be people to chant God's name.  God never sent Krishna or ram as himself, but as messengers which they failed in.  Read Gurbani and we find the Shabad Guru has told us to chant Guru and Guru Nanak.  Krishna and ram got people to chant their name and Bachittar Natak says they failed to deliver God's name, so why can we chant Guru Nanak and be chanting God's name?  Because as Gurbani says, the Gurus are God; they are one and the same.  Throughout time God has shown his Naam to the people in various avatars.  Yet people did not understand the meaning of it.  Gurbani explains this by using krishna but Sikhs can't understand the meaning.  Gurbani says Krishna was born, so how can he be God?  God is beyond birth.  Krishna along with ignorant Sikhs attribute the good deeds the jot did to Krishna.  Read Gurbani and Guru Sahib attribute the good deeds of "Krishna" to God. Gurmukhs humbly say Satguru you give me the ability to do good.  The praise is not of the Gurmukh but to Guru Sahib/God.  Krishna did not understand the deep rooted ego problem he was having and he failed miserably.  And today Sikhs are having the same problem, who praise Krishna as saintly roop of God.

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if the gurus were Gods - why did they die ? And why did God need to come in 10 forms rather then just one.

when guru  Nanak disappeared and was one with God, does that mean he was at one with himself ? That's doesn't make sense 

when guru angad was being tested by guru Nanak - was God test himself ? Also guru angad converted from Hinduism ? That doesn't make sense either if he was God

2 gurus were exicuted - how can that be if they were God ? How can God die - at least the Christian narrative about Jesus makes some sort of sense this makes none. The 7fh guru was a 5 year old child that died at age 9 from smallpox. How do you explain that if he was God?

if the gurus were gods of avataars of God then are their children demigods ?

how does this work with the mool mantra ? 

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VJKK VJKF

The reason we don't call The Guru's "prophets" etc because they were Vaheguru themselves and prophets are "messengers" of Vaheguru. The Guru's shouldn't be confused for "just humans" because they were Vaheguru in human form. That's why we can be sure that the Guru is poora (perfect). All the bani is the Supreme Truth and we know this because it came from the Supreme One. That's why we should never doubt our Guru either.

VJKK VJKF

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47 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

if the gurus were Gods - why did they die ? And why did God need to come in 10 forms rather then just one.

 

The Spirit behind the forms was still Guru Nanak Dev Ji, why they came in 10 forms is something you should ask them :)

Quote

when guru  Nanak disappeared and was one with God, does that mean he was at one with himself ? That's doesn't make sense 

Sargun/Nirgun principle.  God exists as both Nirgun (without form, attribute etc) but also as Sargun (with forms e.g the universe). 

Quote

when guru angad was being tested by guru Nanak - was God test himself ? Also guru angad converted from Hinduism ? That doesn't make sense either if he was God

Bhai Lehna Ji was a hindu, Guru Angad Dev Ji was not.

Quote

2 gurus were exicuted - how can that be if they were God ? How can God die - at least the Christian narrative about Jesus makes some sort of sense this makes none. The 7fh guru was a 5 year old child that died at age 9 from smallpox. How do you explain that if he was God?

Guru Arjun Dev Ji disappeared into the Ravi river, as for SatGuru Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj, he merely had the executioner touch his mortal frame, the head simply fell off. 

Guru Harkrishan Ji finished his mission, hence why he allowed himself to contract smallpox.

Quote

if the gurus were gods of avataars of God then are their children demigods ?

The whole universe, every living being is his child.

Quote

how does this work with the mool mantra ? 

 

Mool manter describes God in his Nirgun form til Gur Prasad. Then it also inputs God's sargun aspects as well. So it all fits perfectly.

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ਆਪਿ ਨਰਾਇਣੁ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਵਰਿਯਉ।। ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗ ਮੰਡਲਿ ਕਰਿਯਉ।।

The Lord (Nirayan) himself with his power came into this world. The formless Lord (Nirankar) took on a form and illuminated the world.

Gurbani tells us again and again that Guru and God are no different. God came to this world through Guru, as Guru.

This theory that Guru is just a teacher was given to us by the British to downplay Sikhi and us Murukhs merrily went along with it. Yes sir yes sir three bags full sir. If only we listened to our Guru the way we listen to our goray masters.

 

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