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“If jarnail singh wasn’t in Akaal takhat, then it would not have been destroyed”

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On 25/11/2017 at 5:20 PM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Indira gandhi was a power-hungry woman, no doubt.

Completely inconsequential. Every politician is power hungry.

 

On 25/11/2017 at 5:20 PM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Akali Sikhs were the most rebellious to central govt of India in 1977 emergency. 

No they were not. This premise is entirely incorrect. Indra gundhi abused the electoral process to gain her seat in the lok sabha. It was the janata dal in 1975, the forerunner of the BJP, not the "Akali Sikhs", that took the case of her fraudulent election to court and won. The high court ruled her election to lok sabha void due to electoral malpractice. The judgment disallowed her holding the office of prime minister. She was ordered to make way and step down in a matter of days. In response to the prospect of being unseated, she imposed the "emergency" and conveniently handed herself draconian powers as a result. Following her imposition of "emergency", it was again the janata dal, not the "Akali Sikhs", that was foremost in opposing it across india, amidst a wider background of resentment against her rule. The "Akali Sikhs" were by no means "the most rebellious to central govt in 1977 emergency", though that may well be their own present line of propaganda.

 

 

On 25/11/2017 at 5:20 PM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

And I think she just had grudge against Akalis, perhaps not Sikhs in particular. 

On 25/11/2017 at 5:20 PM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

It is possible that she attacked akal takht as a vengeance against akalis in their role in 1977 ,

It seems you are trying to downplay or brush aside the widespread desire for the congress party led Sikh Genocide by attributing it to some sort of minor political dispute between political factions that subscribe to the same overall anti-Sikh policy. However that is not the case.

The "Akalis" were in fact wholly accommodative of the Sikh Genocide and were in league with the congress party at this point and they have been ever since.

 

On 25/11/2017 at 5:20 PM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I think we tend to exaggerate the anti-sikh attitude of the then prevailing govts.

If anything, it is clear that we tend to carelessly (or deliberately) undermine it.

 

On 25/11/2017 at 5:20 PM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

but I think to assert that she wanted total annihilation of sikhs like aurangzeb did , is a bit far too stretched.

Either wishful thinking, or ignorance is bliss. Perhaps the proximity of indra gundhi's ancestry to the same "aurangzeb" is underestimated. Perhaps one should investigate the lineage of this litter. Besides being the product of a b*****d jawahar lal nehru that shares its birth in a muslim (mughal) brothel of Allahabad with the other b*****d zulfiqar ali bhutto, the so-called "gundhi" clan traces directly via its paternal line through moti lal nehru and further raj kaul-nehru to gangu bahman.

 

On 25/11/2017 at 5:20 PM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

She wouldn't have appointed Zail Singh as president then

So if Hitler appointed self-hating Jews as nazi army generals, which incidentally he did, then I suppose his actions couldn't remotely be determined as anti-Jewish could they? Lol

This is equivalent to the kind of simple logic that the quoted statement represents.

One can only make that juvenile assertion if one chooses to close their eyes to the fact that he (and she) might have intended to provide their regimes with the convenient camouflage of a veneer of secularism in so doing, whilst charging those very self-hating cretins appointed with the act of rounding up and indiscriminately slaughtering members of their own race and faith.

 

On 25/11/2017 at 5:20 PM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

also would have provided nothing to sikhs. 

Other than the Sikh Genocide, what exactly did she provide to the Sikhs?

 

On 25/11/2017 at 5:20 PM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

To sum it up, I think she was a power-hungry totalitarian politician who wanted to clear anyone off her way. She hated sikhs for this I think, not because of some brahmanical agenda as is always said . 

I could be wrong though 

 

This sense of "nostalgia" that is felt by some waylaid Sikhs for the inherently anti-Sikh congress party that executed the 1984 pogroms and the 1980s Panjab genocide that eliminated 250,000 youths, turned Panjab into a government sponsored slaughter house, and forced over 1 million Sikh males off the register of india within a decade between 1981 and 1991, which leads them to retrospectively rewrite contemporary events in the congress party's favour, is due to anti-incumbency sentiments against the BJP.

It is mostly because a hindutva government led by another dictator is in power and is clearly the result of aggression by the RSS and BJP.

However no Sikh should ever try to downplay the anti-Sikh actions of the kaul-nehru litter and the congress party in particular. The two opposing political factions are both thoroughly brahmanical and biparvadi. They differ in approach only, not in degree.

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      ਵਾਰ ਸੂਹੀ ਕੀ ਸਲੋਕਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥ 
      ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਸੇ ਜੀਵ ਕਾ ਵਿਛੋੜੇ ਅਰੁ ਮਿਲਾਪ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰੁ ਦੇਖਾਵਤੇ ਹੂਏ ਵਾਰ ਅੁਚਾਰਨ 
      ਕਰਤੇ ਹੈਣ॥ 
      ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮ ੩ ॥ 
      ਸੂਹੈ ਵੇਸਿ ਦੋਹਾਗਂੀ ਪਰ ਪਿਰੁ ਰਾਵਣ ਜਾਇ ॥ 
      ਛੁਟੜ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਕੀ ਨਿਆਈ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਮੇਸਰ ਸੇ ਬੇਮੁਖ ਹੈਣ ਸੂਹੇ ਵੇਸ ਵਿਸੋਣ ਮੇਣ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਕੇ 
      (ਪਰੁ ਪਿਰ ਰਾਵਣ ਜਾਇ) ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਤੋਣ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਨੇਣ ਜਾਤਾ ਹੈ॥ 
      ਪਿਰੁ ਛੋਡਿਆ ਘਰਿ ਆਪਣੈ ਮੋਹੀ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥ 
      (ਪਿਰੁ) ਪਤੀ ਜੋ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਸੋ (ਘਰਿ) ਅਪਨੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਮੈਣ ਛੋਡਿਆ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਦੂਜੇ ਭਾਵ ਮੈਣ 
      ਬੁਧੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਗਈ ਹੈ॥ 
      ਮਿਠਾ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਖਾਇਆ ਬਹੁ ਸਾਦਹੁ ਵਧਿਆ ਰੋਗੁ ॥ 
      (ਮਿਠਾ) ਭਾਵ ਸੁਖ ਰੂਪ ਕਰਕੈ ਬਿਸੋਣ ਕੋ ਭੋਗਾ ਥਾ ਬਿਸੇ ਰਸੋਣ ਸੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਰੋਗੁ ਵਧ 
      ਗਿਆ॥ 
      ਸੁਧੁ ਭਤਾਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਛੋਡਿਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਲਗਾ ਜਾਇ ਵਿਜੋਗੁ ॥ 
      ਸੁਧ ਭਰਤਾ ਜੋ ਹਰੀ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਛੋਡਿਆ ਹੈ ਫਿਰ ਜਨਮ ਕਰ ਵਿਛੋੜਾ ਹੀ ਲਾਗ ਜਾਤਾ ਹੈ॥ 
      ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੁ ਪਲਟਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਸਾਜਿ ਸੀਗਾਰਿ ॥ 
      ਜੋ ਗੁਰੋਣ ਕੇ ਸਨਮੁਖ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ ਤਿਸਨੇ ਸੂਹਾ ਵੇਸ ਅੁਤਾਰ ਕੇ ਮਜੀਠਾ ਵੇਸੁ ਬਦਲਿਆ ਹੈ 
      ਭਾਵ ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰੀ ਹੈ ਔ ਸਾਧਨ ਰੂਪ ਸਿੰਗਾਰੁ (ਸਾਜਿ) ਬਨਾ ਕਰ ਹਰੀ ਮੈਣ ਰਾਤੀ ਹੈ॥ 
      ਸਹਜਿ ਸਚੁ ਪਿਰੁ ਰਾਵਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਅੁਰ ਧਾਰਿ ॥ 
      ਹਰੀ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੋ ਰਿਦੇ ਮੈਣ ਧਾਰ ਕੇ ਸੁਖ ਰੂਪੁ ਪਾਰੇ ਕੇ ਆਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਸੁਭਾਵਕ ਹੀ ਭੋਗਾ 
      ਹੈ॥ 
      ਆਗਿਆਕਾਰੀ ਸਦਾ ਸੁੋਹਾਗਂਿ ਆਪਿ ਮੇਲੀ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ॥ 
      ਸੋ ਆਗਾਕਾਰੀ ਹੈ ਅਰ ਵਹੁ ਆਪ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਨੇ ਮੇਲ ਲਈ ਹੈ ਇਸ ਤੇ ਓਹੁ ਸਦਾ 
      ਸੁਹਾਗਂਿ ਹੈ॥ 
      ਨਾਨਕ ਪਿਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਦਾ ਸੁੋਹਾਗਂਿ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ 
      ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੈਣ ਜਿਸਨੇ ਹਰੀ ਰੂਪ ਸਜ਼ਚਾ ਭਰਤਾ ਪਾਯਾ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਜੀਵ ਰੂਪ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ 
      ਸਦਾ ਹੀ ਸੁਹਾਗਂਿ ਹੈ॥੧॥    Like a woman separated from her husband goes to ravish (be ravished by) other men, the man who turns away from Parmesar goes to serve devis and devtas. She has forsaken the Husband (Waheguru) in her heart and has been ensnared with duja bhav. She thinks it to be sweet, and eats it with relish, increasing the disease. She has abandoned the pure Husband and suffers separation. The one who is faithful to the Guru does devotional worship of Waheguru and embellishes herself being in God. Enshrining the name of Waheguru in her heart she obtains bliss. Obedient, she is always in marital bliss and the Creator Himself has allowed her to meet Him. Guru Nanak Dev ji says that whoever has found the true Husband, she is the true holder of marital bliss.  
    • Fair enough. While I'm in agreement that idol worship is not part of Sikhi, I believe the tuks you have posted have been posted out of context here. The bani above is referring to those whose spritual mode of worship is only idol worship. Those who think that Parmeshwar resides only in the idol. Those who have no other forms of worship and still think they are saved by doing puja of a pathar/image. That's not really what's happening in the video (I don't think so anyway). Do bear in mind I'm not completely justifying what they're doing. I would need to know more details before I could personally comment what side of the fence this lands on. For example, if this is a regular thing or only done on a certain day i.e. Vishwakarma Day etc, what they believe about Vishwakarma and what he represents for them, and what their intentions are as well as what their sharda and bhaavna is, in performing this Aarti? And of course their maksad. As I always say, things are rarely black and white.  
    • Brother, the reason we (or at least, some Sikhs) do Aarti of Guru Sahib is because we worship Guru Sahib. The reason it's a "big deal" is because it's spiritual adultery. Even if it were accepted that you can do aarti of a saint or elder, they are not doing that. They are not doing Aarti of Lord Vishwakarma, but rather of a picture of Vishwakarma, which sets them up for the spiritual transgression of idol worship. Guru Nanak Dev ji on idol worship: ਸਲੋਕ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Salok Mehalaa 1 || ਸਾਰੰਗ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ: (ਮਃ ੧) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅੰਗ ੧੨੪੦  ਘਰਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਭਾ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ In your home, is the Lord God, along with all your other gods. ਪੂਜ ਕਰੇ ਰਖੈ ਨਾਵਾਲਿ ॥ You wash your stone gods and worship them. ਕੁੰਗੂ ਚੰਨਣੁ ਫੁਲ ਚੜਾਏ ॥ You offer saffron, sandalwood and flowers.   ਪੈਰੀ ਪੈ ਪੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਮਨਾਏ ॥ Falling at their feet, you try so hard to appease them.   ਮਾਣੂਆ ਮੰਗਿ ਮੰਗਿ ਪੈਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਖਾਇ ॥ Begging, begging from other people, you get things to wear and eat. ਅੰਧੀ ਕੰਮੀ ਅੰਧ ਸਜਾਇ ॥ For your blind deeds, you will be blindly punished. ਭੁਖਿਆ ਦੇਇ ਨ ਮਰਦਿਆ ਰਖੈ ॥ Your idol does not feed the hungry, or save the dying. ਅੰਧਾ ਝਗੜਾ ਅੰਧੀ ਸਥੈ ॥੧॥ The blind assembly argues in blindness. ||1|| ਸਾਰੰਗ ਵਾਰ (ਮਃ ੪) (੯) ਸ. (੧) ੧:੮ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੪੧ ਪੰ. ੨ 
      Raag Sarang Guru Nanak Dev   Guru Arjan Dev ji in Raag Bharo: ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Mehala 5 || ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਕਹਤੇ ਦੇਵ ॥ Those who call a stone their god ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ ॥ Their service is useless. ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕੀ ਪਾਂਈ ਪਾਇ ॥ Those who fall at the feet of a stone god ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਘਾਲ ਅਜਾਂਈ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ - their work is wasted in vain. ||1||   The people who do this (idol worship) will sink in the worldly ocean: ਕਬੀਰ ਪਾਹਨੁ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਪੂਜੈ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ Kabeer, someone sets up a stone idol and all the world worships it as the Lord. ਇਸ ਭਰਵਾਸੇ ਜੋ ਰਹੇ ਬੂਡੇ ਕਾਲੀ ਧਾਰ ॥੧੩੬॥ Those who hold to this belief will be drowned in the river of darkness. ||136|| ਸਲੋਕ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) (੧੩੬):੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੭੧ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
      Salok Bhagat Kabir    
    • Like I said maybe they shouldn't have been doing Aarti, not in the Gurdwara anyway. But the picture in itself shouldn't be a problem. Mahapurkhs have been known to keep pictures of Devi Devte, they weren't allergic to imagery, especially imagery you could say that makes up "Dharam" as a whole. Maybe not the picture shown in the video, but such imagery was commonplace and is part of our heritage. As is evident from the small selection of pictures I posted. The level of Hinduphobia amongst our people borders on idiocy.
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