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Did the Gurus have past lives?

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12 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Why did you avoid my question at the end?  If you didn't see it, here it is again.

Can you provide the same information for aarti being done with candles for anyone of the 10 Gurus or Adi Granth Sahib ji?

I even made it bold so you might not miss it this time.


ਦੁਸਹਰੇ ਦੇ ਦਿਨ ਪੂਜਾ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਕਰਨ । ਚੰਡੀਪਾਠ ਕੀਤਾ ਰਸਨਾ ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ।
On the days of Dusshera, worship your weapons. From your mouths you should recite the ballads of Chandi [Chandi Chritars and Chandi Di Vaar].

ਧੂਪ ਦੀਪ, ਪੁਸ਼ਪ, ਬਹੁਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੁਗੰਧਿ । ਕੇਸਰ, ਚੰਦਨ, ਚਉਰ ਝੁਲੰਤ ।੩੯੦।
[Worship your weapons by using] lots of Incense, Gee-lamps, flowers and nice fragrances. [Use] Saffron, Sandalwood and a Wisk to wave [above your weapons].

- Bansavalinama pg. 161 ਬੰਸਾਵਲੀਨਾਮਾ ਪਨਾ ੧੬੧

 

This text shows that divas and other things where used in the gurus time

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13 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

No where it is written that is was done and no where it is written that it wasnt done.

There are other sources that mention divas and what not in sikhi. If you would like to see that proof then i would be glad to show you.

Since it has not been written and there is no oral tradition of aarti with candles has been done.  We can safely say it was not done to the ten Gurus and Adi Granth Sahib.  Chaur sahib was done and we have written and oral tradition dictating this for us. Also the Gurus gave permission to do Chaur Sahib.  

Also there is no written or oral tradition of the Gurus giving permission to start aarti with candles. Do you agree?

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4 hours ago, chatanga said:

Read what context this is written in:

https://www.searchgurbani.com/dasam-granth/shabad/8269/line/1

IMO Kamalroop has not presented it in its correct context in his article.

One of the things that has always irked me greatly is that even with Sri Akal Bunga under the control of Nihangs during this era the low-castes were barred from entering the parikrama to Darbar Sahib and had to do namaskar from outside. Giani Ditt Singh was a Chamar (even though I did at one time beleive very strongly that he was a julaha) and people like him were heavily discriminated against even under the eye of the protectors of faith - the Dal Panth. This could explain why Giani Ji criticized some of their practices.

Yeah I agree here bro, I did think that before posting it. This article isn't particularly well written for someone of Kamalroop Singh's calibre. However, I do believe his overall argument is valid.

Caste is one area where Nihangs haven't faired so well in the past. Do you believe that was the actual reason why Gyani Ditt Singh stopped the Aarti though - over resentment, so he went after their most beloved rituals? I think it could have been to do with the discord he had with Arya Samaj and Hinduism in general. Kamalroop also mentions his association with Gulabdasis, and from what little I know about them, it would seem to fit into his bias against ritualism.

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2 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Since it has not been written and there is no oral tradition of aarti with candles has been done.  We can safely say it was not done to the ten Gurus and Adi Granth Sahib.  Chaur sahib was done and we have written and oral tradition dictating this for us. Also the Gurus gave permission to do Chaur Sahib.  

Also there is no written or oral tradition of the Gurus giving permission to start aarti with candles. Do you agree?

Actually there is oral tradition withinf buda dal,tarna dal, narmaley, udasi sects. So that refutes your point that there is no oral tradition 

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soooooo back on topic. Here's Sant Bhindrawale's take on the Mata Ji's past lives.

http://kam1825.podbean.com/e/mata-sahib-kaurs-previous-life/

So my initial post about Mata Ji's past life being in Satyug as a different being from Durga is mentioned here by Sant Ji. He references the 404th Charitar in Dasam Granth, If anyone wishes to learn more I recommend you read it. 

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6 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

Actually there is oral tradition withinf buda dal,tarna dal, narmaley, udasi sects. So that refutes your point that there is no oral tradition 

There is no oral tradition of aarti being done with candles before the 10 Gurus or Adi Granth.  If such an oral tradition existed, one of the DamDami Taksal Jathedar's would not have spoken against it. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji is one of the most learned kathavachaks in Gurbani and Sikh history related to Gurbani shabads.  

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45 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

There is no oral tradition of aarti being done with candles before the 10 Gurus or Adi Granth.  If such an oral tradition existed, one of the DamDami Taksal Jathedar's would not have spoken against it. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji is one of the most learned kathavachaks in Gurbani and Sikh history related to Gurbani shabads.  

Not all of sikhi has to do with damdami taksal.

Damdami taksal is one part of sikhi and not the only one, there are other parts of sikhi such as the nihangs,nirmaley,sevapanthis,udasis etc. They all have their own oral traditions that have been passed down. 

Im going to end this convo here cause there is no point in beating a dead horse. 

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16 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

Yeah I agree here bro, I did think that before posting it. This article isn't particularly well written for someone of Kamalroop Singh's calibre. However, I do believe his overall argument is valid.


His argument is valid in that aarti is a method of worship. However the connection to worship of Guru Granth Sahib is not completely addressed in his article.

 

16 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

Do you believe that was the actual reason why Gyani Ditt Singh stopped the Aarti though - over resentment, so he went after their most beloved rituals? I think it could have been to do with the discord he had with Arya Samaj and Hinduism in general.

 

I'm not sure because I don't know if it was a beloved ritual. It may have more to do with the hindu connotations which some Sikh people suffer dreadfully from.

 

16 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

Kamalroop also mentions his association with Gulabdasis, and from what little I know about them, it would seem to fit into his bias against ritualism.

 

From what I have read about his Gulabdasi past, he did break more or less completely from it. I think the anti-arya samaj stance would hold more credence than the ex-Gulabdasi past.

 

 

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3 hours ago, chatanga said:


His argument is valid in that aarti is a method of worship. However the connection to worship of Guru Granth Sahib is not completely addressed in his article.

I'm not sure because I don't know if it was a beloved ritual. It may have more to do with the hindu connotations which some Sikh people suffer dreadfully from.

From what I have read about his Gulabdasi past, he did break more or less completely from it. I think the anti-arya samaj stance would hold more credence than the ex-Gulabdasi past.

It is important to Nihangs. If you ask someone to describe them off the top of their head they're undoubtedly either gonna mention Jhatka, Shastar, Dumalla, or the way they do Aarti.

In regards to being anti-Arya Samaj, don't they shun ritual to quite some extent themselves? I don't think they even do Aarti in the tradtional way.

I personally think it was a combination of things that led Ditt Singh to make these choices. His overall anti-Hindu sentiment was gaining popularity amongst aam janta and he used this to his advantage - in his personal vendetta against the Nihangs. Killed two birds with one stone.

Edited by MrDoaba
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12 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

Not all of sikhi has to do with damdami taksal.

Damdami taksal is one part of sikhi and not the only one, there are other parts of sikhi such as the nihangs,nirmaley,sevapanthis,udasis etc. They all have their own oral traditions that have been passed down. 

Im going to end this convo here cause there is no point in beating a dead horse. 

Passed down from who though?  That's what you have not even attempted to clarify.

Bhai Gurdas ji vaar has the following to say:

ਸੋਦਰੁ ਆਰਤੀ ਗਾਵੀਐ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲੇ ਜਾਪੁ ਉਚਾਰਾ|| 

This tells us aarti was done by singing at the time of Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji and Sri Guru Angad Dev ji.  Had aarti been done by lighting candles, Bhai Gurdas ji would have stated this in the above vaar. 

In this vaar Bhai Gurdas ji also writes about Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji returning from his travels, giving Guruship to Sri Guru Angad Dev, Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji sons didn't obey Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji commands, and where ever Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji went the wisdom of Gurbani was spread.

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1 hour ago, Akalifauj said:

Passed down from who though?  That's what you have not even attempted to clarify.

Bhai Gurdas ji vaar has the following to say:

ਸੋਦਰੁ ਆਰਤੀ ਗਾਵੀਐ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲੇ ਜਾਪੁ ਉਚਾਰਾ|| 

This tells us aarti was done by singing at the time of Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji and Sri Guru Angad Dev ji.  Had aarti been done by lighting candles, Bhai Gurdas ji would have stated this in the above vaar. 

In this vaar Bhai Gurdas ji also writes about Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji returning from his travels, giving Guruship to Sri Guru Angad Dev, Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji sons didn't obey Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji commands, and where ever Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji went the wisdom of Gurbani was spread.

What about the following:

ਰਾਤੀ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਸੋਹਿਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਆਰਤੀ ਪਰਸਾਦ ਵੰਡੰਦੇ।

This would indicate that Aarti was physically performed rather than just sang.

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34 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

What about the following:

ਰਾਤੀ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਸੋਹਿਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਆਰਤੀ ਪਰਸਾਦ ਵੰਡੰਦੇ।

This would indicate that Aarti was physically performed rather than just sang.

How so?

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19 hours ago, Kira said:

soooooo back on topic. Here's Sant Bhindrawale's take on the Mata Ji's past lives.

http://kam1825.podbean.com/e/mata-sahib-kaurs-previous-life/

So my initial post about Mata Ji's past life being in Satyug as a different being from Durga is mentioned here by Sant Ji. He references the 404th Charitar in Dasam Granth, If anyone wishes to learn more I recommend you read it. 

Right, so I've listened to the Katha, read a translation of Charitr 404 (bits were missing), and a seperate analysis. Baala is the woman born of flames who, according to the katha, is Mata Sahib Kaur in Kalyug. The analysis states:

"There is another important facet to be kept in mind about Sabudh Baach - The protagonist Baala, who fought with immense courage on the advent of Satjug does not appear anywhere in this present episode for a long time. This, again, is a subtle hint that the present social order has rendered the otherwise capable woman absolutely powerless. However, she reappears in the form of Bhawani and joins Kaal Purakh again in war efforts once all the 'Turk' Demons have been destroyed."

So what @Singh123456777 said would technically be partly correct i.e Mata Sahib Kaur being Chandi/Durga/Bhavani in their past life. What happens in the rest of the charitr vis-a-vis Bhavani? What's the source of the Chandi and Dusht Daman story? Lets see if we can figure out if they are in fact connected in any way.

Also, charitr 404 takes place in Satyug so one could assume that Baala continues to take birth until Kalyug (current day), most likely as Devi until Mata Sahib Kaur (who by some is also considered to be a manifestation of Devi) - my question is this: what is the significance of being born out of fire, what does it represent, especially in regards to the way it is portrayed in the charitr? A fact which may or may not be related to this, is that Devi is often represented by a flame (sometimes in a diva believe it or not haha). Second question: I know many revere the physical manifestations of Devi to varying degrees, and many revere Mata Sahib Kaur without having any connection to Devi, but does it really matter - aren't they all forms of Shakti or the feminine aspect of Akaal Purkh?

Please forgive any mistakes.

 

Edited by MrDoaba
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17 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

How so?

 

Vaar 6.jpg

 

I don't know if I'm reading it wrong but to me 'aarti karke' sounds like something that was performed physically as opposed to only being sung.

Edited by MrDoaba
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1 hour ago, MrDoaba said:

 

Vaar 6.jpg

 

I don't know if I'm reading it wrong but to me 'aarti karke' sounds like something that was performed physically as opposed to only being sung.

You are making assumptions of one word ਕਰਿ. The translated punjabi you provide is adding in words.  Bhai Gurdas ji says night and the punjabi translator assumed, at bed time. Also Bhai Gurdas ji does not even use the word read.  This is being added and changing the meaning.  The word ਕੀਰਤਿ is describing ਸੋਹਿਲਾ. 

ਰਾਤੀ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਸੋਹਿਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਆਰਤੀ ਪਰਸਾਦ ਵੰਡੰਦੇ।

there is no mention of candles for aarti.

Edited by Akalifauj

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