Jump to content
Singh2017

Did the Gurus have past lives?

Recommended Posts

14 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

This is what you wrote in this topic

Quote
"A number of misguided modern-Sikhs say that this practice is Hindu or ritualistic. If we are to remove everything from the Khalsa Panth that has the slightest relation to the Hindu Dharam we would have nothing left. 

What happened to accepting all the different levels that Gurbani speaks to certain people here?

as I said before.  You want your irrational rule to apply to everyone else expect you and your group. 

If you bothered to read that post carefully you would have seen the quotation marks, and the words 'Dr. Kamalroop Singh' at the bottom. Unless you think I've somehow miraculously morphed into Kamalroop Singh, I suggest you take it up with him. All your post shows is your lack of concentration and that you are intent on having an argument with me.

And yes I want my irrational rule to apply to everybody else except me and my group, whoever they are. We are all narrow-minded terrible sinners. You should make a case to have us excommunicated if it bothers you so much. Not that 'me and my group' would give a crap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent analysis and observations bro. Very insighful.

14 hours ago, Kira said:

The Fire represents purity and power. For example when Durga waged her war with the general of Mahishasura, While fighting from her rage and her forehead (Dasam Dwar) rose a fire, and that fire gave birth to Kalika.  Mata Baala rising from the flames is important as well, as it shows she has no linege from either side (she wasn't born into a Asura family like Bhagat Prahalad or as a Devta to fight for good). 

In a more deeper stance She represents a Gursikh or a Puran Brahmgyani. The Fire is the fire of Brahmgyan that burns within them. Mata Baala is born amidst of that fire in the the world, She's basically born between Paap (Demons) and Piousness (Devtas). The battlefield represents the Karma fields we live in, basically the eternal struggle between good and evil. But a Gurmukh is born amongst neither and is above both (Sukhmani Sahib). Her being a woman is important as She's also a manifestation of the Soul-Bride that Guru Granth Sahib Ji is also telling us about.

Here's my feeble interpretation of it.

A few things came to mind when reading this. Firstly what Agni Dev represents in Indic thought. Agni symbolises sacrifice; it was during a battle in which many sacrifices were made did fire appear, and from this fire Maa Baala was born. It's almost as if she was a boon granted to the world and Dharam or in other words "Akaal Sahai" i.e. everlasting support for those in pursuit of righteousness. Through the sacrifice of Dharam Yudh is righteousness propagated and restored, and seeing as Bir Rass/Dharam Yudh is one of the core messages of Dasam Granth it would make sense.

As you say, she has no lineage from either side, and this ties in with the purity; She (like Gursikhs/Khalsa and Brahmgyanis), has transcended Paap and Punn, she is representative of Shudh Gyaan, a state which upon reaching one realises their only objective is to merge with Akaal Purkh; becoming a Soul-Bride. In order to attain this state one could use the inner Yajna (again being fire) or inner purification analogy, in which the fire of Brahmgyaan destroys doubt, ignorance, and the panj vikaar. In both a real Yajna and a metephorical one, in order to keep the fire burning, the ingedients must be pure. In this case it would correspond to practising and mastering the five virtues as per Sikhi. Finally, the Nirmal Pursh becomes the ultimate sacrifice in the Maha Yajna that is Kalyug, and as Agni is considered messagener/mediator between man and God, the Aatma is transported back to where it came from. OR as Agni Dev is also a witness in marriage ceremonies, here he becomes the witness of the eternal union of said Nirmal Pursh (Soul-Bride) with his Creator.

There is a source which mentions Yajna/Havan in Sikhi, can't remember what it is. And I have no idea if it's metephorical or literal, or both. Many believe it was both but I won't attempt to promote such a possibility here, for obvious reasons. I also remember reading about it in other Indic worship systems once (besides Sanatan Mat)

14 hours ago, Kira said:

She wants to marry God and so she prays and her prayers are answered. Bhavani comes to deliver the News that Mata Baala should do anything that God tells her (Bhavani represents Righteousness here, i.e the ideal path reveals itself on how to reach God). Kaal Purkh then instructs her to wage war against the demons (destroy the evil within) and She follows it to a dot. God then assists her due to this by coming to her in a form to support and basically destroy the Demons too. Their union is such that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva all run and flee as the power and magnificence is too much. On a metaphorical stage that's the 3 guna becoming powerless before the true Gurmukhs. 

I don't have much to add to this paragraph, I think you've got it spot on especially the part about the 3 guna's. Just a couple of questions. So Kaal Purkh instructs her to wage war against the demons or inner demons as you say, then God assists her to help her destroy the demons too - are these now literal demons (the evil in the world)? If so, is what your referring to Miri-Piri in a nutshell, that one must become Sant before Sipahi in order to avoid the likes of tyranny, unjust actions etc?

14 hours ago, Kira said:

I think Ugardanti Bani is amazing in explaining this.

I'll have a read of it. That's another thing you can thank the Sodhak Committee for removing.

14 hours ago, Kira said:

Before or after the Dusht Daman Story.

There's also the incident that since Bhavani is the one who delivers the message to Mata Baala, and Mata Ji is Mata Sahib Kaur Ji. Why is there a difference in characters? Why is Bhavani talking to herself in this instance? the only other time I've read this happened was when Krishna took Arjuna to his realm to speak to Vishnu, in an attempt to teach him a lesson regarding ego while remaining inside his earthly role. 

If I had to guess I would say before. Maa Baala is referred to as Bhavani later on in the Charitr, and in the Dusht Daman story Chandi comes for help; so in a chronological sense if Mata Ji has manifested as Bhavani you could assume that it's her who goes to Dusht Daman because I believe Chandi, Durga, Bhavani, Bhagauti are used interchangeably. Maybe Suraj Prakash Granth just chooses to look at from a different perspective, or a more relatable one?

That's an interesting point about Krishan and Arjun. Maybe the answer can be found in Guru Gobind Singh Ji's commentary on the Gita? I wouldn't be surprised if there was seeing as the main theme of Dasam Granth and the Gita overlap somewhat.

Maybe the moral of this part of the story is one of redemption in the context of lakh chaurasi and or Karma, a warning of sorts for the reader? Although it would be highly dependant on Bhavani's status throughout the Charitr. I'm just speculating here.

 

The amount of Gyaan one can gain from just this one part of the Charitr and its veechaar has left me astonished I must say.

 

Time to sit back now and wait for the RSS comments and 'Hindu' accusations to start pouring in. *Leaves laptop to go and reapply Kanku and Chandan*

Edited by MrDoaba

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

Foolish people talking nonsense 

right, this coming from you. The guy that knows less than anyone else here. Do you ever add anything to discussions other than snide comments to try and seem self righteous?

On 09/12/2017 at 3:45 AM, TheeTurbanator said:

Can someone please give me a summary of this discussion?

Basically the discussion is regarding the final charitar in Dasam Granth and the story of Dusht Daman. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 08/12/2017 at 9:20 PM, MrDoaba said:

Excellent analysis and observations bro. Very insighful.

Here's my feeble interpretation of it.

A few things came to mind when reading this. Firstly what Agni Dev represents in Indic thought. Agni symbolises sacrifice; it was during a battle in which many sacrifices were made did fire appear, and from this fire Maa Baala was born. It's almost as if she was a boon granted to the world and Dharam or in other words "Akaal Sahai" i.e. everlasting support for those in pursuit of righteousness. Through the sacrifice of Dharam Yudh is righteousness propagated and restored, and seeing as Bir Rass/Dharam Yudh is one of the core messages of Dasam Granth it would make sense.

As you say, she has no lineage from either side, and this ties in with the purity; She (like Gursikhs/Khalsa and Brahmgyanis), has transcended Paap and Punn, she is representative of Shudh Gyaan, a state which upon reaching one realises their only objective is to merge with Akaal Purkh; becoming a Soul-Bride. In order to attain this state one could use the inner Yajna (again being fire) or inner purification analogy, in which the fire of Brahmgyaan destroys doubt, ignorance, and the panj vikaar. In both a real Yajna and a metephorical one, in order to keep the fire burning, the ingedients must be pure. In this case it would correspond to practising and mastering the five virtues as per Sikhi. Finally, the Nirmal Pursh becomes the ultimate sacrifice in the Maha Yajna that is Kalyug, and as Agni is considered messagener/mediator between man and God, the Aatma is transported back to where it came from. OR as Agni Dev is also a witness in marriage ceremonies, here he becomes the witness of the eternal union of said Nirmal Pursh (Soul-Bride) with his Creator.

There is a source which mentions Yajna/Havan in Sikhi, can't remember what it is. And I have no idea if it's metephorical or literal, or both. Many believe it was both but I won't attempt to promote such a possibility here, for obvious reasons. I also remember reading about it in other Indic worship systems once (besides Sanatan Mat)

I don't have much to add to this paragraph, I think you've got it spot on especially the part about the 3 guna's. Just a couple of questions. So Kaal Purkh instructs her to wage war against the demons or inner demons as you say, then God assists her to help her destroy the demons too - are these now literal demons (the evil in the world)? If so, is what your referring to Miri-Piri in a nutshell, that one must become Sant before Sipahi in order to avoid the likes of tyranny, unjust actions etc?

I'll have a read of it. That's another thing you can thank the Sodhak Committee for removing.

If I had to guess I would say before. Maa Baala is referred to as Bhavani later on in the Charitr, and in the Dusht Daman story Chandi comes for help; so in a chronological sense if Mata Ji has manifested as Bhavani you could assume that it's her who goes to Dusht Daman because I believe Chandi, Durga, Bhavani, Bhagauti are used interchangeably. Maybe Suraj Prakash Granth just chooses to look at from a different perspective, or a more relatable one?

That's an interesting point about Krishan and Arjun. Maybe the answer can be found in Guru Gobind Singh Ji's commentary on the Gita? I wouldn't be surprised if there was seeing as the main theme of Dasam Granth and the Gita overlap somewhat.

Maybe the moral of this part of the story is one of redemption in the context of lakh chaurasi and or Karma, a warning of sorts for the reader? Although it would be highly dependant on Bhavani's status throughout the Charitr. I'm just speculating here.

 

The amount of Gyaan one can gain from just this one part of the Charitr and its veechaar has left me astonished I must say.

 

Time to sit back now and wait for the RSS comments and 'Hindu' accusations to start pouring in. *Leaves laptop to go and reapply Kanku and Chandan*

will respond to your post later on today bro, I have a meeting with my Pandit uncles. We need to discuss how best to corrupt the sikh youth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/8/2017 at 1:18 PM, MrDoaba said:

If you bothered to read that post carefully you would have seen the quotation marks, and the words 'Dr. Kamalroop Singh' at the bottom. Unless you think I've somehow miraculously morphed into Kamalroop Singh, I suggest you take it up with him. All your post shows is your lack of concentration and that you are intent on having an argument with me.

And yes I want my irrational rule to apply to everybody else except me and my group, whoever they are. We are all narrow-minded terrible sinners. You should make a case to have us excommunicated if it bothers you so much. Not that 'me and my group' would give a crap.

Here is a response you wrote to another poster about the guys article:

Quote

However, I do believe his overall argument is valid.

His point was what was quoted to you previously.  Which makes what I said true, you don't follow your own rules.  Also the very disagreement you are having with me.  Makes you a person who doesn't follow his own rules.  I will vigorously point this out because the argument you originally made is flawed and many people in the past have used it to their advantage against the Sikh sangat.  Here it is:

Quote

By this logic all translations, arths, teekas etc should just go out the window. Gurbani (including other Sikh writings) is subject to interpretation as it has many layers and so speaks to different people on different levels. Gurbani has no ant, therefore no translation etc is completely right..

Gurbani having no ant does not mean Gurbani doesn't have a correct interpretation.  Gurbani has no ant because the correct interpretation can go on for decades and centuries, and for infinity by the Gurmukhs who knows it.  Yet they will never contradict what they said.  Its called Naam.  The different levels you speak of are an illusion of the mind tricking the 'self' into believing the 'self' knows what spiritual wisdom is.  Perfect example of this illusion was Krishna because he thought he knew what truth was.  He was drunk with ego and thought he had the solution.  Any true beloved Sikh of the Guru finds many intrepretations/teekas bland because they don't represent the Gurbani Shabad.  And they are especially bland when words meaning are changed to fit a person's belief system.

Quote

I was merely providing you with another line as a clearer example that aarti could well have been performed with divas. 

 You didn't know what that line was saying yourself.  Once again I will quote back to you how confused you were on what one word meant.

Quote

I don't know if I'm reading it wrong but to me 'aarti karke' sounds like something that was performed physically as opposed to only being sung.

Only after my response to the above quoted post did you change your position and say, aarti on its own already includes lit candles and Bhai Gurdas ji didn't have to write it in the original line I provided of bhai Gurdas ji's.  Why even begin to question what 'karke' means in a line of Bhai Gurdas ji's vaar, when you are convinced the word aarti includes lit candles.  The line you provided did not present anything new to add or elaborate on.  The word 'karke' didn't change the meaning because the word 'karke' simply means to read/sing.  Gurbani uses this word to say, sing/read and since Bhai Gurdas ji is providing lessons from Gurbani it is only right to go by Gurbani. 

Quote

Just as you provided the former to try and definitively prove that it was not - even in that one it says that aarti was sung, it doesn't state it was strictly only sung; one could unambiguously assume that the accompanying ritual went along with it, that it need no mention, hence, me finding a different one to show that distinct possibility.

  I find the bold part the most damaging to young minds that are still learning. Many pandits make this very argument on various concepts of Sikhi to add their manmat practices in.  Let's take Charan pahul as an example.  Bhai Gurdas ji writes the following.

ਚਰਨ ਧੋਇ ਰਹਰਾਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਚਰਣਾਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਪੀਲਾਇਆ |

Now if I was to take the bold as my way of behaving I would say Bhai Gurdas ji didn't only strictly say the feet of the Guru were washed; one could unambiguously assume that the accompanying ritual of sacrificing a goat to God, and to wash the Gurus feet in the blood went along with charan pahul, that it need no mention, hence me finding a different one to show that distinct possibility.  

Also everyone note how the word 'karke' comes in this line and it is referring to Rehras (Sahib)!!!!!  According to my best friend mrdoaba, this means rehras Sahib was performed physically as opposed to being sung.  I wonder how Rehras Sahib is done physically.  Don't worry, MrDoaba will explain this for us.  I guess this proves my original point of Bhai Gurdas ji Vaars need to be intrepreted correctly, otherwise we end up with flawed arguments trying to prove goat sacrifice and washing feet in blood is part of Sikhi.  I could have remotely made up anything and said, since it doesn't strictly say only this can be done, we can add x, y, and z.  

Quote

1) not everybody is Taksali nor is Taksal the final authority on each and every thing in Sikhi nor does what they say apply to the whole panth

Why are you writing Taksali?  When you clearly know it was Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji who wrote not to light candles when doing aarti.  Address him, who wrote it.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

Foolish people talking nonsense 

ਮੂਰਖ ਹੈਗਾ ਤੂ

ਫਿਰੰਗੀ ਸਾਲਾ...

10 hours ago, Kira said:

will respond to your post later on today bro, I have a meeting with my Pandit uncles. We need to discuss how best to corrupt the sikh youth.

ਬੀਰੇ, ਮੈਨੂੰ ਦੁੱਖ ਮਹਿਸੂਸ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਐ ਕੇ ਤੁਸਾਂ ਨੇ ਨਾਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਬੁਲਾਇਆ...ਚਲੋ..

ਮੇਰੇ ਵੱਲੋਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਅੰਕਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਕਹਿਣਾ

10 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Many pandits make this very argument

ਤੈਨੂੰ ਹੁਣ ਪਤਾ ਲੱਗਾ ਮੈਂ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਹਾਂ? ਮੇਰੀ ਕਰਤੂਤਾਂ ਹੱਲੇ ਦੇਖੀ ਜਾ...

ਅੱਜ ਰਾਮ ਮੇਰੇ ਘਰ ਆਏ..ਸੋ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਕੇ ਚੁੱਪ ਦਾ ਦਾਨ ਬਖਸ਼ੋ ਜੀ ਨਾਲੇ ਦੀਵੇ ਜਗਾਓ ਅਤੇ ਘੰਟੀ ਬਜਾਓ

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

ਮੂਰਖ ਹੈਗਾ ਤੂ

ਫਿਰੰਗੀ ਸਾਲਾ...

ਬੀਰੇ, ਮੈਨੂੰ ਦੁੱਖ ਮਹਿਸੂਸ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਐ ਕੇ ਤੁਸਾਂ ਨੇ ਨਾਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਬੁਲਾਇਆ...ਚਲੋ..

ਮੇਰੇ ਵੱਲੋਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਅੰਕਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਕਹਿਣਾ

ਤੈਨੂੰ ਹੁਣ ਪਤਾ ਲੱਗਾ ਮੈਂ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਹਾਂ? ਮੇਰੀ ਕਰਤੂਤਾਂ ਹੱਲੇ ਦੇਖੀ ਜਾ...

ਅੱਜ ਰਾਮ ਮੇਰੇ ਘਰ ਆਏ..ਸੋ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਕੇ ਚੁੱਪ ਦਾ ਦਾਨ ਬਖਸ਼ੋ ਜੀ ਨਾਲੇ ਦੀਵੇ ਜਗਾਓ ਅਤੇ ਘੰਟੀ ਬਜਾਓ

Oh please 

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 08/12/2017 at 9:20 PM, MrDoaba said:

Excellent analysis and observations bro. Very insighful.

Here's my feeble interpretation of it.

A few things came to mind when reading this. Firstly what Agni Dev represents in Indic thought. Agni symbolises sacrifice; it was during a battle in which many sacrifices were made did fire appear, and from this fire Maa Baala was born. It's almost as if she was a boon granted to the world and Dharam or in other words "Akaal Sahai" i.e. everlasting support for those in pursuit of righteousness. Through the sacrifice of Dharam Yudh is righteousness propagated and restored, and seeing as Bir Rass/Dharam Yudh is one of the core messages of Dasam Granth it would make sense.

As you say, she has no lineage from either side, and this ties in with the purity; She (like Gursikhs/Khalsa and Brahmgyanis), has transcended Paap and Punn, she is representative of Shudh Gyaan, a state which upon reaching one realises their only objective is to merge with Akaal Purkh; becoming a Soul-Bride. In order to attain this state one could use the inner Yajna (again being fire) or inner purification analogy, in which the fire of Brahmgyaan destroys doubt, ignorance, and the panj vikaar. In both a real Yajna and a metephorical one, in order to keep the fire burning, the ingedients must be pure. In this case it would correspond to practising and mastering the five virtues as per Sikhi. Finally, the Nirmal Pursh becomes the ultimate sacrifice in the Maha Yajna that is Kalyug, and as Agni is considered messagener/mediator between man and God, the Aatma is transported back to where it came from. OR as Agni Dev is also a witness in marriage ceremonies, here he becomes the witness of the eternal union of said Nirmal Pursh (Soul-Bride) with his Creator.

 

That's actually a really good way of looking at it, I had totally forgotten about Agni dev being witness and what not.

Quote

There is a source which mentions Yajna/Havan in Sikhi, can't remember what it is. And I have no idea if it's metephorical or literal, or both. Many believe it was both but I won't attempt to promote such a possibility here, for obvious reasons. I also remember reading about it in other Indic worship systems once (besides Sanatan Mat)

Metaphorical. I believe it was Gyani Gyan Singh's work. He said Baba Deep Singh Ji did a Havan before battle but it was later explained it was a metaphorical havan where the fire he lit was the fire of Brahmgyan.

Quote

I don't have much to add to this paragraph, I think you've got it spot on especially the part about the 3 guna's. Just a couple of questions. So Kaal Purkh instructs her to wage war against the demons or inner demons as you say, then God assists her to help her destroy the demons too - are these now literal demons (the evil in the world)? If so, is what your referring to Miri-Piri in a nutshell, that one must become Sant before Sipahi in order to avoid the likes of tyranny, unjust actions etc?

Literal and Metaphorical imo. Miri Piri would fall into this line I guess, Mata Ji does Tapisya first and then goes to war but imo both are equally important and have a symbiotic relationship with each other, this will just turn into a what came first proverbial gameplay.

Quote

I'll have a read of it. That's another thing you can thank the Sodhak Committee for removing.

Really the bani is eerily similar to alot of verses in Sri Guru Granth Sahib JI.

Quote

If I had to guess I would say before. Maa Baala is referred to as Bhavani later on in the Charitr, and in the Dusht Daman story Chandi comes for help; so in a chronological sense if Mata Ji has manifested as Bhavani you could assume that it's her who goes to Dusht Daman because I believe Chandi, Durga, Bhavani, Bhagauti are used interchangeably. Maybe Suraj Prakash Granth just chooses to look at from a different perspective, or a more relatable one?

I'd disagree here, Bhagauti is never used for Chandi/Durga/Kalika etc, Bhagauti is a seperate entity as its the Puran Shatki of Akaal. imo there's 2 possible theories for this. Firstly the Bhavani that appeared before Mata Ji wasn't Durga the wife of Shiva but Bhavani the puran Shakti of Akaal, as in the Shakti of Akaal manifested fully. The second theory is that Bhavani later became a title she was given due to the fact she fought like Durga against the demons, Sort of like how people will say certain people are so and so Devta as a way of conveying how strong they are. Heck Indra Gandhi was called Durga (laughable as she got riddled with bullets later on but its an example) and Baba Deep Singh Ji was described as being like Shiva doing the Tandava dance while destroying the enemy in defence of Harmandir Sahib.

Quote

That's an interesting point about Krishan and Arjun. Maybe the answer can be found in Guru Gobind Singh Ji's commentary on the Gita? I wouldn't be surprised if there was seeing as the main theme of Dasam Granth and the Gita overlap somewhat.

This story isn't in the Gita I think, the story happened during or before the Mahabharata, its actually mentioned in Chaubis avatar too. Basically a Brahmin's children kept dying so Arjuna promised to stop Yamraj taking them by standing guard doing his wife's child birth but the child disappears, so Krishna takes him to Vaikuntha to get them back from his Vishnu Saroop and then basically teach him he shouldnt be so egoistical and assume he has a say in these things.

Quote

Maybe the moral of this part of the story is one of redemption in the context of lakh chaurasi and or Karma, a warning of sorts for the reader? Although it would be highly dependant on Bhavani's status throughout the Charitr. I'm just speculating here.

 

The amount of Gyaan one can gain from just this one part of the Charitr and its veechaar has left me astonished I must say.

 

Time to sit back now and wait for the RSS comments and 'Hindu' accusations to start pouring in. *Leaves laptop to go and reapply Kanku and Chandan*

There's alot in every charitar, it's actually gobsmacking to say the least.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×