Questions from an ignorant manmukh, vol.1

[SeekingSikhi]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I am a 31 year old white male living north of Houston, TX with my wife and two young children.  I recently became aware of Sikhi, and found an immediate and intense resonance with the words of the guru.  I have been watching numerous videos from BoS and NanakNaam, and recently began reading Max Arthur Macauliffe's The Sikh Religion.  While reading, I came across a passage that, frankly, upset me.  I had been working under the impression that in Sikhi there is no literal hell, yet in this book Macauliffe suggests that not only might that notion be wrong, but that Guru Nanak Dev Ji has even said that "the hindus are going to hell".  Maybe it's my being raised in the christian church, but that seems like quite a statement.  The way I see it there are four options.  1 - I'm wrong and sikhs do believe in hell. 2 - Guru Nanak is referring to a maya-based hell on earth. 3 - The Guru changes this philosophy later, and had I kept reading I would've come to that part. 4 - This isn't a very good book about Sikhi.  I look forward to using this community to deepen my understanding of the guru, and finally find some sangat. 

[BhForce]

34 minutes ago, SeekingSikhi said:

While reading, I came across a passage that, frankly, upset me.  I had been working under the impression that in Sikhi there is no literal hell, yet in this book Macauliffe suggests that not only might that notion be wrong, but that Guru Nanak Dev Ji has even said that "the hindus are going to hell".

Welcome.

I would like to ask:

1. Why would it bother you if there were a hell?

2. Do you think people should or should not receive punishment for their deeds?

3. If yes (or even if no), do you think Adolf Hitler should receive residence in paradise in exchange for killing 11 million people?

4. What was the exact passage from Macauliffe's book? 

[SeekingSikhi]

I've always worked under the impression (even before finding Sikhi) that our deeds inform our next life, not that you get one chance to do things right and if you don't - sorry.  Torment for eternity.  Such would seem to fly in the face of a loving Waheguru.  Now, if there were some evidence for something of a temporary hell where your sins are cleansed but then your soul is reborn (like a smelter's forge removing impurities from metal), I might could reconcile that with my understanding of God.  But eternal torture?  Doesn't make sense with a loving God.  Even Hitler, in another life, could find the guru.  If I don't believe it true for everyone, how can I believe it true for anyone?

[Guest Jacfsing2]

45 minutes ago, SeekingSikhi said:

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I am a 31 year old white male living north of Houston, TX with my wife and two young children.  I recently became aware of Sikhi, and found an immediate and intense resonance with the words of the guru.  I have been watching numerous videos from BoS and NanakNaam, and recently began reading Max Arthur Macauliffe's The Sikh Religion.  While reading, I came across a passage that, frankly, upset me.  I had been working under the impression that in Sikhi there is no literal hell, yet in this book Macauliffe suggests that not only might that notion be wrong, but that Guru Nanak Dev Ji has even said that "the hindus are going to hell".  Maybe it's my being raised in the christian church, but that seems like quite a statement.  The way I see it there are four options.  1 - I'm wrong and sikhs do believe in hell. 2 - Guru Nanak is referring to a maya-based hell on earth. 3 - The Guru changes this philosophy later, and had I kept reading I would've come to that part. 4 - This isn't a very good book about Sikhi.  I look forward to using this community to deepen my understanding of the guru, and finally find some sangat. 

I've never read Macauliffe's book, nor have I heard of this quote; however, what Gurbani says time and again is that Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the only way to Vaheguru.

[Guest Jacfsing2]

11 minutes ago, SeekingSikhi said:

I've always worked under the impression (even before finding Sikhi) that our deeds inform our next life, not that you get one chance to do things right and if you don't - sorry.  Torment for eternity.  Such would seem to fly in the face of a loving Waheguru.  Now, if there were some evidence for something of a temporary hell where your sins are cleansed but then your soul is reborn (like a smelter's forge removing impurities from metal), I might could reconcile that with my understanding of God.  But eternal torture?  Doesn't make sense with a loving God.  Even Hitler, in another life, could find the guru.  If I don't believe it true for everyone, how can I believe it true for anyone?

Only liberation of the soul is eternal. Heaven and Hell would only be temporary. Though even if temporary meant lifetime, that's a very long time.

[SeekingSikhi]

Yes, but there's being stuck in the cycle of death and rebirth, stuck with a heart and mind that only knows and craves Maya; and then there's a life of eternal torment for not being a Sant.  It's possible my christian upbringing has me fixated on the idea of a different geographic location that only exists for the sole purpose of torturing sinners.

[Guest Jacfsing2]

3 minutes ago, SeekingSikhi said:

Yes, but there's being stuck in the cycle of death and rebirth, stuck with a heart and mind that only knows and craves Maya; and then there's a life of eternal torment for not being a Sant.  It's possible my christian upbringing has me fixated on the idea of a different geographic location that only exists for the sole purpose of torturing sinners.

The goal for a Sikh isn't whether they get rewarded or not, but rather on serving Guru Sahib with the best you can. Now I don't really believe in any religion other than Sikhi, but there is s teaching in the Bible similar to that in loving Jesus with all one can do regardless.

If you asked me, there is no hell in the world that can equate to not knowing Guru Sahib, and no punishment can amount to anything if Guru Sahib saves you. It doesn't matter if there is a physical or material hell or heaven, all we can do is help another being through Sewa. Also contrary to popular belief Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji has existed since the beginning of time, before 1469.

[SeekingSikhi]

2 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

The goal for a Sikh isn't whether they get rewarded or not

If you asked me, there is no hell in the world that can equate to not knowing Guru Sahib, and no punishment can amount to anything if Guru Sahib saves you. It doesn't matter if there is a physical or material hell or heaven, all we can do is help another being through Sewa.

As to your first point, I just want to clarify that I'm not concerned with getting some kind of reward.  Living the guru's hukam with as little humai as I can manage is absolutely reward enough.  I don't ask out of selfish reasons, but rather to ensure my understanding is at its best.

Your second point is spot on.  Thank you for your input!

[BhForce]

33 minutes ago, SeekingSikhi said:

I've always worked under the impression (even before finding Sikhi) that our deeds inform our next life, not that you get one chance to do things right and if you don't - sorry.  Torment for eternity.  Such would seem to fly in the face of a loving Waheguru.  Now, if there were some evidence for something of a temporary hell where your sins are cleansed but then your soul is reborn (like a smelter's forge removing impurities from metal), I might could reconcile that with my understanding of God.  But eternal torture?  Doesn't make sense with a loving God.  Even Hitler, in another life, could find the guru.  If I don't believe it true for everyone, how can I believe it true for anyone?

Well, I guess you answered my questions #1-3, but not #4, so go ahead and do that, please.

It seems that you do accept the idea of punishment to the extent of the crime, which seems fine to me. Just like you were upset, I would be upset if there were no punishment for the evil deeds that people commit. I think that some people take the idea of a "loving God" too far, and think that they should be able to do whatever they want to do, and have no consequences. I don't think you are saying that, though.

As far as Hell, it seems it depends how you define it. I guess you thought "hell" mean "eternal hell". I would think hell is a place that you get punishment; the length of the punishment is up to God in regards to your misdeeds.

As for your question regarding the possibility of redemption for people in hell, yes, the Sikh scriptures do speak to that.

First of all, there is a hell in which sinners are thrown:

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੪ ॥

ਜੋ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਸੁ ਅਉਖਾ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇਆ ॥

One who slanders the Perfect True Guru, shall have difficulty in this world.

14148 ਗਉੜੀ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ:੧ (ਮ: ੪) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੦੯ ਪੰ. ੧੦ p 309

ਨਰਕ ਘੋਰੁ ਦੁਖ ਖੂਹੁ ਹੈ ਓਥੈ ਪਕੜਿ ਓਹੁ ਢੋਇਆ ॥

He is caught and thrown into the most horrible hell, the well of pain and suffering.

ਕੂਕ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਕੋ ਨ ਸੁਣੇ ਓਹੁ ਅਉਖਾ ਹੋਇ ਹੋਇ ਰੋਇਆ ॥

No one listens to his shrieks and cries; he cries out in pain and misery.

ਓਨਿ ਹਲਤੁ ਪਲਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਲਾਹਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਸਭੁ ਖੋਇਆ ॥

He totally loses this world and the next; he has lost all of his investment and profit.

ਓਹੁ ਤੇਲੀ ਸੰਦਾ ਬਲਦੁ ਕਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਜੋਇਆ ॥

He is like the ox at the oil-press; each morning when he rises, God places the yoke upon him.

 

However, there is the possibility of redemption:

ਜੇ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਓਹੁ ਆਵੈ ਤਾ ਪਿਛਲੇ ਅਉਗਣ ਬਖਸਿ ਲਇਆ ॥

But if he should come again to the Sanctuary of the Guru, then even his past sins shall be forgiven.

ਗਉੜੀ ਵਾਰ¹ (ਮਃ ੪) (੧੩) ਸ. (੪) ੨:੮ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੦੭ ਪੰ. ੯  p307

 

So, yes, I think that Sikhism does envision the kind of thing you're talking about (temporary punishment leading to cleansing and then forgiveness).

[Guest Jacfsing2]

10 minutes ago, SeekingSikhi said:

As to your first point, I just want to clarify that I'm not concerned with getting some kind of reward.  Living the guru's hukam with as little humai as I can manage is absolutely reward enough.  I don't ask out of selfish reasons, but rather to ensure my understanding is at its best.

Your second point is spot on.  Thank you for your input!

Good to know your getting satisfied with some answers. Hell and Heaven are less like special realms, but more of extra realms, as there's millions of them.