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What does Sikhi say on slavery ?

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5 minutes ago, chatanga said:

 

No at the moment this is still being researched that Guru Nanak and Bhai Mardana visited Rome. There are some interesting documents in the Vatican archives that state that two people of such names came from the East and spent some time in Rome.

https://www.sikhnet.com/news/more-evidence-guru-nanak-visited-europe

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1 hour ago, BhForce said:

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੈ ਪੇਖਿ ਪੇਖਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਗਸਾਈ ॥੩॥੮॥

Sabh Mehi Rav Rehiaa Prabh Eaekai Paekh Paekh Naanak Bigasaaee ||3||8||

The One God is pervading in all. Gazing upon Him, beholding Him, Nanak blossoms forth in happiness. ||3||8||

ਕਾਨੜਾ (ਮਃ ੫) (੮) ੩:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੯੯ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Raag Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev, p1299

 

By contrast, the Prophet of Arabia beheld the beauty of war booty Safiyyah (an extremely beautiful Jewish girl), and "married" her after killing her husband and father! 

A slight and tangential disagreement on an otherwise good post: AFAIK, Hagar was not Abraham's slave. She was his wife Sarah's maidservant (employee). He is not considered an adulterer because he went into Hagar with Sarah's blessing. And from all accounts (including from her descendants), she was up for it. If you want to call the Prophet Abraham a rapist because Hagar was a slave, you can make that argument, but I've never heard anyone call him an adulterer.

the correct status of Hagar was she was Sarah's slave and came in the daaj and thus though she was given to Sarah's husband she still remained a slave to Sarah to control and thus was providing progeny for Sarah as  a secondary wife/concubine (people are unsure as same word for both)

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/did_abraham_marry_hagar.htm

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18 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

yes  Abraham had a second wife but after sarah passes  with a different name and it is clear that she is not the mother of Ishmael

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/abrahams-second-marriage/

"yes" as in you agree with me, or you don't?

The article states that Keturah was the 2nd wife of Abraham after Sarah died, as stated in the Bible.

Why do you say " it is clear that she is not the mother of Ishmael" when the article you posted says: "There is no explanation of Keturah’s lineage. Some suggest that she was Hagar. Others say that she was a different woman entirely." ?

 

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7 minutes ago, BhForce said:

"yes" as in you agree with me, or you don't?

The article states that Keturah was the 2nd wife of Abraham after Sarah died, as stated in the Bible.

Why do you say " it is clear that she is not the mother of Ishmael" when the article you posted says: "There is no explanation of Keturah’s lineage. Some suggest that she was Hagar. Others say that she was a different woman entirely." ?

 

Yes he had two wives but it seems that Hagar who the bible mentions is not the same women they are counting . The second quote where he's thinking about giving blessing to his second child it seems that Keturah is someone other than his mother.

Besides sarah regrets her decision when Hagar starts to show spite when she falls pregnant and gets her husband to deal with the situation and his idea/ send her into the wilderness with bread water and baby. Wow what a guy 

Edited by jkvlondon
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1 hour ago, chatanga said:

 

No at the moment this is still being researched that Guru Nanak and Bhai Mardana visited Rome. There are some interesting documents in the Vatican archives that state that two people of such names came from the East and spent some time in Rome.

Rüm is used to refer to many regions across Europe-Asia.

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3 hours ago, BhForce said:

Good of you to bring up this episode. It shows that putting the women of a enemy (defeated or not) into sexual slavery, as allowed in the Koran, is not allowed in Sikhism.

Yet, this episode is not recorded in Guru Granth Sahib, and this fact underlines the importance of sources outside Gurbani for Sikhism. Those Sikhs who mistakenly think that Sikhi consists of Guru Granth Sahib and only Guru Granth Sahib ji are asked to re-evaluate their position. (I'm not saying you believe this.)

Could you post the relevant texts from these sources? Thanks.

Agreed. Any Sikh who is accord with historic Sikhism as passed onto us by our Gurus and preserved through the years orally and in our history would never think to enslave another human being.

Could you post a few if you have them handy?

Again, these are sources outside of Gurbani, but that's OK, because Guru Sahib asked us to listen to these outside sources (with discernment, of course):

ਬਾਬਾਣੀਆ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਪੁਤ ਸਪੁਤ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥

“The stories of one’s ancestors make the children good children.”

(Ang 951)

and 

ਸੁਣਿ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਨ ਜਪਿ ਪਿਆਰ ॥

Listen to the stories of the devotees, O my mind, and meditate with love.

ਬਸੰਤੁ (ਮਃ ੫) ਅਸਟ. (੧) ੧:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੯੨ ਪੰ. ੩ 
Raag Basant Guru Arjan Dev, p 1192

(The Sakhis listed are those of "non-Sikhs".)

Another great quote from outside of Gurbani.

Yes, I'm looking through some of the Janamsakhis I have.

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10 hours ago, akaltaksal said:

There is no one JanamSakhi. There are numerous of Janamsakhis.

Right. I mean the Janam Sakhi that you have that refers to the episode.

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10 hours ago, akaltaksal said:

Rüm is used to refer to many regions across Europe-Asia.

Such as?

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