Jump to content
YOYO29

What does Sikhi say on slavery ?

Recommended Posts

jkvlondon    3,510
5 minutes ago, chatanga said:

 

No at the moment this is still being researched that Guru Nanak and Bhai Mardana visited Rome. There are some interesting documents in the Vatican archives that state that two people of such names came from the East and spent some time in Rome.

https://www.sikhnet.com/news/more-evidence-guru-nanak-visited-europe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jkvlondon    3,510
1 hour ago, BhForce said:

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੈ ਪੇਖਿ ਪੇਖਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਗਸਾਈ ॥੩॥੮॥

Sabh Mehi Rav Rehiaa Prabh Eaekai Paekh Paekh Naanak Bigasaaee ||3||8||

The One God is pervading in all. Gazing upon Him, beholding Him, Nanak blossoms forth in happiness. ||3||8||

ਕਾਨੜਾ (ਮਃ ੫) (੮) ੩:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੯੯ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Raag Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev, p1299

 

By contrast, the Prophet of Arabia beheld the beauty of war booty Safiyyah (an extremely beautiful Jewish girl), and "married" her after killing her husband and father! 

A slight and tangential disagreement on an otherwise good post: AFAIK, Hagar was not Abraham's slave. She was his wife Sarah's maidservant (employee). He is not considered an adulterer because he went into Hagar with Sarah's blessing. And from all accounts (including from her descendants), she was up for it. If you want to call the Prophet Abraham a rapist because Hagar was a slave, you can make that argument, but I've never heard anyone call him an adulterer.

the correct status of Hagar was she was Sarah's slave and came in the daaj and thus though she was given to Sarah's husband she still remained a slave to Sarah to control and thus was providing progeny for Sarah as  a secondary wife/concubine (people are unsure as same word for both)

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/did_abraham_marry_hagar.htm

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BhForce    536
18 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

yes  Abraham had a second wife but after sarah passes  with a different name and it is clear that she is not the mother of Ishmael

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/abrahams-second-marriage/

"yes" as in you agree with me, or you don't?

The article states that Keturah was the 2nd wife of Abraham after Sarah died, as stated in the Bible.

Why do you say " it is clear that she is not the mother of Ishmael" when the article you posted says: "There is no explanation of Keturah’s lineage. Some suggest that she was Hagar. Others say that she was a different woman entirely." ?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jkvlondon    3,510
7 minutes ago, BhForce said:

"yes" as in you agree with me, or you don't?

The article states that Keturah was the 2nd wife of Abraham after Sarah died, as stated in the Bible.

Why do you say " it is clear that she is not the mother of Ishmael" when the article you posted says: "There is no explanation of Keturah’s lineage. Some suggest that she was Hagar. Others say that she was a different woman entirely." ?

 

Yes he had two wives but it seems that Hagar who the bible mentions is not the same women they are counting . The second quote where he's thinking about giving blessing to his second child it seems that Keturah is someone other than his mother.

Besides sarah regrets her decision when Hagar starts to show spite when she falls pregnant and gets her husband to deal with the situation and his idea/ send her into the wilderness with bread water and baby. Wow what a guy 

Edited by jkvlondon
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
akaltaksal    53
1 hour ago, chatanga said:

 

No at the moment this is still being researched that Guru Nanak and Bhai Mardana visited Rome. There are some interesting documents in the Vatican archives that state that two people of such names came from the East and spent some time in Rome.

Rüm is used to refer to many regions across Europe-Asia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
akaltaksal    53
3 hours ago, BhForce said:

Good of you to bring up this episode. It shows that putting the women of a enemy (defeated or not) into sexual slavery, as allowed in the Koran, is not allowed in Sikhism.

Yet, this episode is not recorded in Guru Granth Sahib, and this fact underlines the importance of sources outside Gurbani for Sikhism. Those Sikhs who mistakenly think that Sikhi consists of Guru Granth Sahib and only Guru Granth Sahib ji are asked to re-evaluate their position. (I'm not saying you believe this.)

Could you post the relevant texts from these sources? Thanks.

Agreed. Any Sikh who is accord with historic Sikhism as passed onto us by our Gurus and preserved through the years orally and in our history would never think to enslave another human being.

Could you post a few if you have them handy?

Again, these are sources outside of Gurbani, but that's OK, because Guru Sahib asked us to listen to these outside sources (with discernment, of course):

ਬਾਬਾਣੀਆ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਪੁਤ ਸਪੁਤ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥

“The stories of one’s ancestors make the children good children.”

(Ang 951)

and 

ਸੁਣਿ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਨ ਜਪਿ ਪਿਆਰ ॥

Listen to the stories of the devotees, O my mind, and meditate with love.

ਬਸੰਤੁ (ਮਃ ੫) ਅਸਟ. (੧) ੧:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੯੨ ਪੰ. ੩ 
Raag Basant Guru Arjan Dev, p 1192

(The Sakhis listed are those of "non-Sikhs".)

Another great quote from outside of Gurbani.

Yes, I'm looking through some of the Janamsakhis I have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BhForce    536
10 hours ago, akaltaksal said:

There is no one JanamSakhi. There are numerous of Janamsakhis.

Right. I mean the Janam Sakhi that you have that refers to the episode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chatanga    1,068
10 hours ago, akaltaksal said:

Rüm is used to refer to many regions across Europe-Asia.

Such as?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • There is a Sikh girl named Amaya. I would not say that her parents belong to the religious group.  People in our community tend to believe that Sikhi gives you options to choose. Well, God has given all the free will to choose between religion and maya and between specifically which religion you would want to follow. However, God is also the one who makes people forget about him and he is the one who reminds people about his existence too.  Tudh aap vishoreya aap milaya.  We as Sikhs need to understand that God is still in control. Who are we to judge people.  A good example is if you met Jagraj Singh before he was a devoted Sikh, would you have the same to say about him 10 years later? You never know who God is going to choose to become a devoted and blessed Gursikh next.  Apne karam ki ghat mae kya jaanu, says bhagat Ji.  Judging others is wrong. Looking at so and so and criticizing them is wrong. We are supposed to look at our own selves. If we keep looking at others, then we are neglecting ourselves - it is ourselves that we need to improve.  Hum nahi change bura nahi koi. Realise that everybody is at a different level - however we will all get there in the end.
    • http://www.sikhmatrimonials.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/ca32680024ff68b487256a08007e86d8/950014563418440f87256fc00033d318!OpenDocument
      During my visits to the Harimandir Sahib in late 1990s when I was studying at Guru Nanak Dev University in Amritsar, I often came across a very familiar scene – Inside the sanctum sanctorum, sitting opposite to the ‘kirtaniyes’, a man in his 30s, in a sense of extreme gush, mesmerized and actuated by the euphoria of the keertan, physically detached from the World around him, his eyes closed with tears flowing down his cheeks and drenching his black flowing beard.

      Something conspicuously different from what others were doing- hurling their way towards the sanctum sanctorum, making their own space to bow down and offer their respects, very cautious of the positioning of the cameras, telecasting live images around the world. 

      Wow! I used to say every time I saw him. I thought, this is what one needs in order to attain a humane connection with that place and the environment. But I also realized that this was something inveterate, which would only come with time, filled with love for the Guru and Gurbani…

      hau reh na ska bin dekhe preetma mai neer vahe vahe chale jeeo. 
      I cannot survive without seeing my Beloved. My eyes are welling up with tears. 
      (M4; Pg 94; SGGS)

      But I was also a bit puzzled. Why this melancholy? It is said, ‘’how but through a broken heart can Lord enter’’. Was it the environment, the shabad or something else? It was all-in-one I guess. Sitting with crossed legs, closed eyes, listening to the ‘dhur ki baani’ written by our Gurus – this reaction is inevitable if we really concentrate on the shabad, its meaning and environment.

      Also, is melancholy a reflection of the Sikhs’ perception of ‘man neevan’ which they utter daily in their prayer, ‘man neevan; mat uchee’? (humble mind and exalted wisdom). It’s such a unique combination of the ‘man’ (mind) being humble but at the same time the spirits being high.     
    • You're not alone in wondering why people do this. As far as my observations, people who name thier daughters maya don't have a clue what maya is or the concept of maya. These people tend to be Sikh in name only. They do it purely to be modern while keeping an 'indian flavour' to thier childs name.
    • Guest Kaur 2
      VJKK VJKF This question has been eating at me for quite a long time now. I thought that maya what something that distracts us from Vaheguru so why do people call their daughters maya? Do you think it comes from Bollywood? Just a thought. VJKK VJKF  
    • Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh !! Sangat Ji, Just came across this interesting read while downloading Kirtan from Sikhnet. Thought i should share.. https://www.sikhnet.com/news/why-do-sikhs-celebrate-bandi-chhor-divas-so-much Source: http://americanbornconfusedsikh.blogspot.ca/2017/10/why-do-sikhs-celebrate-bandi-chor-divas.html   P.S  - I do not affiliate or follow 3HO or any related sikh organisations   Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh !!      
×