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YOYO29

What does Sikhi say on slavery ?

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1 hour ago, YOYO29 said:

Same can be said of a sikh or hindu.When viewing Islam or Christianity they use dharmic lense. Anyway , considering Guru's ban on Halal way of meat (which is cruel btw) i was expecting same kind of clear cut approach in regards to slavery but sadly found none.

Not really. I have yet to meet any Hindu or Sikh who used a Dharmic lense to look at Islam or Christianity. It's very much the opposite. So many scholars from an Abrahamic background looked upon the Sikh scriptures trying to see if it fit into their preconcieved notion of theology, religion, religious law, and doctrine.  I'd like to see an example of the reverse. 

 Don't expect the Gurus to list out every immorality and crime known to mankind.  Janamsakhis mention it, but I doubt anyone here read those.When Guru Nanak Dev Ji was in Rüm, he spoke against Slavery there, as it was happening there.It's pretty clearcut.

Again, the Sikh texts (and other core Dharmic texts too) aren't like the Quran, Talmud or Bible. 

Edited by akaltaksal

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4 minutes ago, akaltaksal said:

Not really. I have yet to meet any Hindu or Sikh who used a Dharmic lense to look at Islam or Christianity. It's very much the opposite. 

if you are a bit social or active on social media.You would know.There is no shortage of Hindutva thugs who view Christianity and Islam through their dharmic mindset.

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7 minutes ago, YOYO29 said:

if you are a bit social or active on social media.You would know.There is no shortage of Hindutva thugs who view Christianity and Islam through their dharmic mindset.

Who gives a flying rat's a$$ about what people say on Social media? Look at the academic circles. Where it matters. Read a scholarly article or a book. 

You can say anything on Social Media. Are any of those commenters, posters, etc. scholars or researchers? No. Their opinions will only affect people who have a poor educational background.

Edited by akaltaksal

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14 minutes ago, akaltaksal said:

Who gives a flying rat's a$$ about what people say on Social media? Look at the academic circles. Where it matters. Read a scholarly article or a book.

None give.You said i have not met any sikh or hindu who view abrahmic faith with their dhamric lense.And i told you there are plenty hindus. Whether they are educated or not.This was not point. My point there are people from dharmic religions who view abrahmic religion their dharmic goggles.

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2 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

Same can be said of a sikh or hindu.When viewing Islam or Christianity they use dharmic lense. Anyway , considering Guru's ban on Halal way of meat (which is cruel btw) i was expecting same kind of clear cut approach in regards to slavery but sadly found none.

when a faith is based on the central premise that all humankind is the same level  rights wise , how can you trap /justify abusing others' freedoms by keeping them in permanent bondage ? ALL three abrahamic faiths justify themselves doing it but it is hardly from the Creator but the people . on one hand they give laws against adultery and yet keep slaves and rape them and that is not punishable ? it is rape if the woman is not free to say No . Abraham impregnates Hagar his slave and the result is Ishmael and yet he is not an adulterer, strange that. Christians justified keeping slaves because of the old testament and you  are aware of in islam . 

Hindus have just changed the language but the effect is the same , the high caste  can kill , rape , maim a low or no caste person and there is no punishment even harming animals is considered a bigger sin. SMH

if we believe Akal purakh is merciful, loving, treats all equally, who is always uplifting ,those who serve Him/Her/ It  will surely mirror those qualities, if not, what are the signs indicating , that they are serving their own low base wants?

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On 13/09/2017 at 3:29 PM, YOYO29 said:

I have been on this forum for quite a long time now and gradually I have developed a keen interest in Sikhism.So,I was just wondering what does Sikhi say on slavery ? Does it condemn openly or it is silent on this issue ? Please give your answer with reference from Sikh scriptures.Thank you

 

Right from the start more or less, the Gurus views on slavery were clear. Babur when taking over Eminabad, where Guru Nanak Sahib was at the time, took the townsfolk prisoner as slaves  (Inc Guru Sahib). Soon after he realised who Guru Nanak was and on Guru Sahib's rebuke, he released all the people and promised he would not repeat that again.

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10 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

None give.You said i have not met any sikh or hindu who view abrahmic faith with their dhamric lense.And i told you there are plenty hindus. Whether they are educated or not.This was not point. My point there are people from dharmic religions who view abrahmic religion their dharmic goggles.

I meant people from Academic circles (scholars). 

Edited by akaltaksal

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The caste system turned into a form of slavery.  lower caste were slaved into doing labor they had no desire of doing.  Living among only a certain type of people of their kind. They couldn't go to certain places like sacred mandirs or a mandir at all.  The caste system even enslaved the lower caste soul by saying a woman can't achieve mukhti and lower caste men can't achieve mukhti.  Lower caste were killed for stepping in a higher caste shadow.  They couldn't eat sleep or drink in the same place.  Lower caste whole function was to serve the higher caste.

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On 9/18/2017 at 7:44 AM, akaltaksal said:

In Gur Rattan Mal and Sri Gur Katha, there is a recorded instance of Sikhs capturing a Muslim Ranghar or Pathan woman as a form of revenge upon muslims, this was strongly detested by the Tenth Guru who ordered for the woman to be returned untouched, instructing the Khalsa to not stoop so low, as the Panth was made with to encompass morale. 

Good of you to bring up this episode. It shows that putting the women of a enemy (defeated or not) into sexual slavery, as allowed in the Koran, is not allowed in Sikhism.

Yet, this episode is not recorded in Guru Granth Sahib, and this fact underlines the importance of sources outside Gurbani for Sikhism. Those Sikhs who mistakenly think that Sikhi consists of Guru Granth Sahib and only Guru Granth Sahib ji are asked to re-evaluate their position. (I'm not saying you believe this.)

Could you post the relevant texts from these sources? Thanks.

On 9/18/2017 at 7:44 AM, akaltaksal said:

Slavery would be vehemently against the Gurmat principles laid down by our Gurus. 

Agreed. Any Sikh who is accord with historic Sikhism as passed onto us by our Gurus and preserved through the years orally and in our history would never think to enslave another human being.

On 9/18/2017 at 7:44 AM, akaltaksal said:

In the biographies and hagiographies the Gurus and the Bhagat Sahibans, there are numerous instances in which the Gurus opposed such evil. 

Could you post a few if you have them handy?

Again, these are sources outside of Gurbani, but that's OK, because Guru Sahib asked us to listen to these outside sources (with discernment, of course):

ਬਾਬਾਣੀਆ ਕਹਾਣੀਆ ਪੁਤ ਸਪੁਤ ਕਰੇਨਿ ॥

“The stories of one’s ancestors make the children good children.”

(Ang 951)

and 

ਸੁਣਿ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਨ ਜਪਿ ਪਿਆਰ ॥

Listen to the stories of the devotees, O my mind, and meditate with love.

ਬਸੰਤੁ (ਮਃ ੫) ਅਸਟ. (੧) ੧:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੯੨ ਪੰ. ੩ 
Raag Basant Guru Arjan Dev, p 1192

(The Sakhis listed are those of "non-Sikhs".)

On 9/18/2017 at 7:44 AM, akaltaksal said:

ਅਸੁਰ ਸਿੰਘਾਰਬੇ ਕੋ ਦੁਰਜਨ ਕੇ ਮਾਰਬੇ ਕੋ ਸੰਕਟ ਨਿਵਾਰਬੇ ਕੋ ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ ਬਨਾਯੋ ਹੈ॥ 

"To slay the Asur (Demon), To kill the Durjan (wicked men), to eradicate Sankat (crisis, calamity, hardship, scourge), The Khalsa has been made." -Sri Guru Sobha, Kavi Sainapat Ji.

Another great quote from outside of Gurbani.

  • Thanks 1

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12 hours ago, akaltaksal said:

When Guru Nanak Dev Ji was in Rüm, he spoke against Slavery there, as it was happening there.

Is this in the Janam Sakhi? Can you post it?

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11 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

when a faith is based on the central premise that all humankind is the same level  rights wise , how can you trap /justify abusing others' freedoms by keeping them in permanent bondage ?

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੈ ਪੇਖਿ ਪੇਖਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਗਸਾਈ ॥੩॥੮॥

Sabh Mehi Rav Rehiaa Prabh Eaekai Paekh Paekh Naanak Bigasaaee ||3||8||

The One God is pervading in all. Gazing upon Him, beholding Him, Nanak blossoms forth in happiness. ||3||8||

ਕਾਨੜਾ (ਮਃ ੫) (੮) ੩:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੯੯ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Raag Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev, p1299

 

By contrast, the Prophet of Arabia beheld the beauty of war booty Safiyyah (an extremely beautiful Jewish girl), and "married" her after killing her husband and father! 

11 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

Abraham impregnates Hagar his slave and the result is Ishmael and yet he is not an adulterer, strange that.

A slight and tangential disagreement on an otherwise good post: AFAIK, Hagar was not Abraham's slave. She was his wife Sarah's maidservant (employee). He is not considered an adulterer because he went into Hagar with Sarah's blessing. And from all accounts (including from her descendants), she was up for it. If you want to call the Prophet Abraham a rapist because Hagar was a slave, you can make that argument, but I've never heard anyone call him an adulterer.

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10 hours ago, chatanga said:

Right from the start more or less, the Gurus views on slavery were clear. Babur when taking over Eminabad, where Guru Nanak Sahib was at the time, took the townsfolk prisoner as slaves  (Inc Guru Sahib). Soon after he realised who Guru Nanak was and on Guru Sahib's rebuke, he released all the people and promised he would not repeat that again.

Yet another episode from outside Gurbani, highlighting the importance of sources other than Gurbani for Sikhi.

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1 hour ago, BhForce said:

Yet another episode from outside Gurbani, highlighting the importance of sources other than Gurbani for Sikhi.

it is in baburvani he talking about the same incident were Guru ji says that ropes were placed about the necks of the once rich women of that town, where beautiful tresses were their heads were now shaved (also alludes to widowhood)

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1 hour ago, BhForce said:

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੈ ਪੇਖਿ ਪੇਖਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਗਸਾਈ ॥੩॥੮॥

Sabh Mehi Rav Rehiaa Prabh Eaekai Paekh Paekh Naanak Bigasaaee ||3||8||

The One God is pervading in all. Gazing upon Him, beholding Him, Nanak blossoms forth in happiness. ||3||8||

ਕਾਨੜਾ (ਮਃ ੫) (੮) ੩:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੯੯ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Raag Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev, p1299

 

By contrast, the Prophet of Arabia beheld the beauty of war booty Safiyyah (an extremely beautiful Jewish girl), and "married" her after killing her husband and father! 

A slight and tangential disagreement on an otherwise good post: AFAIK, Hagar was not Abraham's slave. She was his wife Sarah's maidservant (employee). He is not considered an adulterer because he went into Hagar with Sarah's blessing. And from all accounts (including from her descendants), she was up for it. If you want to call the Prophet Abraham a rapist because Hagar was a slave, you can make that argument, but I've never heard anyone call him an adulterer.

yes  Abraham had a second wife but after sarah passes  with a different name and it is clear that she is not the mother of Ishmael

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/abrahams-second-marriage/

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1 hour ago, BhForce said:

Is this in the Janam Sakhi? Can you post it?

 

No at the moment this is still being researched that Guru Nanak and Bhai Mardana visited Rome. There are some interesting documents in the Vatican archives that state that two people of such names came from the East and spent some time in Rome.

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