What does Sikhi say on slavery ?

[BhForce]

11 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

when a faith is based on the central premise that all humankind is the same level  rights wise , how can you trap /justify abusing others' freedoms by keeping them in permanent bondage ?

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੈ ਪੇਖਿ ਪੇਖਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਗਸਾਈ ॥੩॥੮॥

Sabh Mehi Rav Rehiaa Prabh Eaekai Paekh Paekh Naanak Bigasaaee ||3||8||

The One God is pervading in all. Gazing upon Him, beholding Him, Nanak blossoms forth in happiness. ||3||8||

ਕਾਨੜਾ (ਮਃ ੫) (੮) ੩:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੯੯ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Raag Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev, p1299

 

By contrast, the Prophet of Arabia beheld the beauty of war booty Safiyyah (an extremely beautiful Jewish girl), and "married" her after killing her husband and father! 

11 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

Abraham impregnates Hagar his slave and the result is Ishmael and yet he is not an adulterer, strange that.

A slight and tangential disagreement on an otherwise good post: AFAIK, Hagar was not Abraham's slave. She was his wife Sarah's maidservant (employee). He is not considered an adulterer because he went into Hagar with Sarah's blessing. And from all accounts (including from her descendants), she was up for it. If you want to call the Prophet Abraham a rapist because Hagar was a slave, you can make that argument, but I've never heard anyone call him an adulterer.

[BhForce]

10 hours ago, chatanga said:

Right from the start more or less, the Gurus views on slavery were clear. Babur when taking over Eminabad, where Guru Nanak Sahib was at the time, took the townsfolk prisoner as slaves  (Inc Guru Sahib). Soon after he realised who Guru Nanak was and on Guru Sahib's rebuke, he released all the people and promised he would not repeat that again.

Yet another episode from outside Gurbani, highlighting the importance of sources other than Gurbani for Sikhi.

[jkvlondon]

1 hour ago, BhForce said:

Yet another episode from outside Gurbani, highlighting the importance of sources other than Gurbani for Sikhi.

it is in baburvani he talking about the same incident were Guru ji says that ropes were placed about the necks of the once rich women of that town, where beautiful tresses were their heads were now shaved (also alludes to widowhood)

[jkvlondon]

1 hour ago, BhForce said:

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੈ ਪੇਖਿ ਪੇਖਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਗਸਾਈ ॥੩॥੮॥

Sabh Mehi Rav Rehiaa Prabh Eaekai Paekh Paekh Naanak Bigasaaee ||3||8||

The One God is pervading in all. Gazing upon Him, beholding Him, Nanak blossoms forth in happiness. ||3||8||

ਕਾਨੜਾ (ਮਃ ੫) (੮) ੩:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੯੯ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Raag Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev, p1299

 

By contrast, the Prophet of Arabia beheld the beauty of war booty Safiyyah (an extremely beautiful Jewish girl), and "married" her after killing her husband and father! 

A slight and tangential disagreement on an otherwise good post: AFAIK, Hagar was not Abraham's slave. She was his wife Sarah's maidservant (employee). He is not considered an adulterer because he went into Hagar with Sarah's blessing. And from all accounts (including from her descendants), she was up for it. If you want to call the Prophet Abraham a rapist because Hagar was a slave, you can make that argument, but I've never heard anyone call him an adulterer.

yes  Abraham had a second wife but after sarah passes  with a different name and it is clear that she is not the mother of Ishmael

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/abrahams-second-marriage/

[chatanga]

1 hour ago, BhForce said:

Is this in the Janam Sakhi? Can you post it?

 

No at the moment this is still being researched that Guru Nanak and Bhai Mardana visited Rome. There are some interesting documents in the Vatican archives that state that two people of such names came from the East and spent some time in Rome.

[jkvlondon]

5 minutes ago, chatanga said:

 

No at the moment this is still being researched that Guru Nanak and Bhai Mardana visited Rome. There are some interesting documents in the Vatican archives that state that two people of such names came from the East and spent some time in Rome.

https://www.sikhnet.com/news/more-evidence-guru-nanak-visited-europe

[jkvlondon]

1 hour ago, BhForce said:

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੈ ਪੇਖਿ ਪੇਖਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਗਸਾਈ ॥੩॥੮॥

Sabh Mehi Rav Rehiaa Prabh Eaekai Paekh Paekh Naanak Bigasaaee ||3||8||

The One God is pervading in all. Gazing upon Him, beholding Him, Nanak blossoms forth in happiness. ||3||8||

ਕਾਨੜਾ (ਮਃ ੫) (੮) ੩:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੨੯੯ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Raag Kaanrhaa Guru Arjan Dev, p1299

 

By contrast, the Prophet of Arabia beheld the beauty of war booty Safiyyah (an extremely beautiful Jewish girl), and "married" her after killing her husband and father! 

A slight and tangential disagreement on an otherwise good post: AFAIK, Hagar was not Abraham's slave. She was his wife Sarah's maidservant (employee). He is not considered an adulterer because he went into Hagar with Sarah's blessing. And from all accounts (including from her descendants), she was up for it. If you want to call the Prophet Abraham a rapist because Hagar was a slave, you can make that argument, but I've never heard anyone call him an adulterer.

the correct status of Hagar was she was Sarah's slave and came in the daaj and thus though she was given to Sarah's husband she still remained a slave to Sarah to control and thus was providing progeny for Sarah as  a secondary wife/concubine (people are unsure as same word for both)

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/did_abraham_marry_hagar.htm

[BhForce]

18 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

yes  Abraham had a second wife but after sarah passes  with a different name and it is clear that she is not the mother of Ishmael

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/abrahams-second-marriage/

"yes" as in you agree with me, or you don't?

The article states that Keturah was the 2nd wife of Abraham after Sarah died, as stated in the Bible.

Why do you say " it is clear that she is not the mother of Ishmael" when the article you posted says: "There is no explanation of Keturah’s lineage. Some suggest that she was Hagar. Others say that she was a different woman entirely." ?

 

[jkvlondon]

7 minutes ago, BhForce said:

"yes" as in you agree with me, or you don't?

The article states that Keturah was the 2nd wife of Abraham after Sarah died, as stated in the Bible.

Why do you say " it is clear that she is not the mother of Ishmael" when the article you posted says: "There is no explanation of Keturah’s lineage. Some suggest that she was Hagar. Others say that she was a different woman entirely." ?

 

Yes he had two wives but it seems that Hagar who the bible mentions is not the same women they are counting . The second quote where he's thinking about giving blessing to his second child it seems that Keturah is someone other than his mother.

Besides sarah regrets her decision when Hagar starts to show spite when she falls pregnant and gets her husband to deal with the situation and his idea/ send her into the wilderness with bread water and baby. Wow what a guy 

[akaltaksal]

1 hour ago, chatanga said:

 

No at the moment this is still being researched that Guru Nanak and Bhai Mardana visited Rome. There are some interesting documents in the Vatican archives that state that two people of such names came from the East and spent some time in Rome.

Rüm is used to refer to many regions across Europe-Asia.