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Is it really Sikh, Sikhi, Sikhism vs Hindu, Hinduism and it's beliefs?

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Guest Saddened Hindu   
Guest Saddened Hindu

I'm here because I now feel that either the teachings, teachers, interpretations or the followers of Sikhism themselves are in the wrong or being guided with malacious intent. My use of word malicious is intentional because I have started to feel the maliciouness. My childhood Sikh friends have closed "Only Sikh" chat groups where they share Hindu jokes about coward Hindus, impotent Hindus, Hindu whores etc. I got to know as a misdirected forwards got sent to our common group. I've stopped going to gurudwaras because I hear and feel a common theme of country of Hindus, government of Hindus, cow-urine-drinking-rat-monkey idolising Hindus, coward Hindus and Lion Sikhs etc. I am here to gauge, know and hopefully get reassured that somehow an undercurrent of hatred against Hindus is not gaining momentum and hopefully is not perpetuated by the very gurudwaras. That my very good childhood friend doesn't think of me as a coward or belonging to a coward race. That they don't see my wife n daughter as a <banned word filter activated>. That they are not disrespectful of my beliefs/identity. When I say they, I mean my Sikh friends, colleagues and all the Sikhs. Are Sikhs somehow being taught this disrespect through the family unit, gurudwaras, community congregations, media?  I am looking for intelligence, reason, guidance and true knowledge from members/guests who are not blindfolded by parochial view of religion and with whom I can engage in a civil and a thought provoking dialougue.

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Jacfsing2    1,845
5 hours ago, Guest Saddened Hindu said:

I'm here because I now feel that either the teachings, teachers, interpretations or the followers of Sikhism themselves are in the wrong or being guided with malacious intent. My use of word malicious is intentional because I have started to feel the maliciouness. My childhood Sikh friends have closed "Only Sikh" chat groups where they share Hindu jokes about coward Hindus, impotent Hindus, Hindu whores etc. I got to know as a misdirected forwards got sent to our common group. I've stopped going to gurudwaras because I hear and feel a common theme of country of Hindus, government of Hindus, cow-urine-drinking-rat-monkey idolising Hindus, coward Hindus and Lion Sikhs etc. I am here to gauge, know and hopefully get reassured that somehow an undercurrent of hatred against Hindus is not gaining momentum and hopefully is not perpetuated by the very gurudwaras. That my very good childhood friend doesn't think of me as a coward or belonging to a coward race. That they don't see my wife n daughter as a <banned word filter activated>. That they are not disrespectful of my beliefs/identity. When I say they, I mean my Sikh friends, colleagues and all the Sikhs. Are Sikhs somehow being taught this disrespect through the family unit, gurudwaras, community congregations, media?  I am looking for intelligence, reason, guidance and true knowledge from members/guests who are not blindfolded by parochial view of religion and with whom I can engage in a civil and a thought provoking dialougue.

I do feel sorry that you consider someone who doesn't have decent human respect for you, as a friend. However, what I will say is that our feelings are just, especially with the intense persecution of Sikhs, false promises, as well as flat out trying to destroy the very fabrics of our faith, and trying to convert us. I don't care about some Hindu jokes, or whatever "jokes", these so-called "friends", of yours consider funny, what most Sikhs care about practically is ensuring their survival. If it was up to most of these Hindus, they'd defend their corrupt leader, (Indira Gandhi), and downright insult our Mahapurukhs, (Sant Jarnail Singh Bhinderwale), and Shaheeds, (Satwant and Beant Singh). With this much disparity, there will be intense conflicts, there's also extreme conflicts between diaspora Sikhs and Indian Sikhs, Punjabi Sikhs vs Other parts of India Sikhs, so don't think the only argument is between people of different faiths.

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Whatever weve been "taught" has been by your people and leaders and if you wanna be saddened by anything it should be by the actions of your community towards us. As for your so called friends who talk sh!t about you behind your back well they are probably not your real friends than. Sorry if i sounded blunt.

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Guest Saddened Hindu   
Guest Saddened Hindu
2 hours ago, ThunderousDominator said:

Whatever weve been "taught" has been by your people and leaders and if you wanna be saddened by anything it should be by the actions of your community towards us. As for your so called friends who talk sh!t about you behind your back well they are probably not your real friends than. Sorry if i sounded blunt.

Thunderous dominator and Jacfsing2.

So it must be true. Your referring me as You and Your Community is quite hurtful. I haven't taught you or other Sikhs anything and have taken no actions against you or other Sikhs. But when I go to a gurudwara and have to articulate to my 6 year old girl's query that whether Sikhs hate us or not, I really wonder what does the institution stand for. My 6 year old girl sitting in a sangat with her father, both our heads covered in reverence, listens to an 8 year old boy read a speech saying ,"Aj hinduan di pardhanmantri nu maar ke shahidi prapt kiti.....,", "hinduan ne...", "hinduan di...", "hinduan nu..."etc and then asks me why are we here dad when they hate us, it saddens me. Is this the history lesson that we find is imperative to teach so our progeny doesn't have any doubts about our identity? Majority of sangat in gurudwara were Hindus with their head covered n bowed in reverence, most of an age incapable of comprehending the hatred let alone the reason behind it. I am teaching my child that it was n still might be a tradition amongst Hindu families in Punjab to bring up one child of the family as a Sikh, about the sacrifices of Gurus, about the martyrs of Jallianwalla Bagh and bhagat singh. Then I take that child to the very institution I'm highlighting, to be only exposed to hatred and vitriol in the name of history lesson. History is documented. This in itself means that it has suffered inflictions of bias, inaccuracies, opinions and emotions. So to answer my girl's question I approached that 8 year old lad, congratulated him for his eloquent delivery in Punjabi despite the accent, and asked him, in front of his parents, whether he knew the names of the sons Guruji sacrificed. He drew a blank. Then I asked my girl and she rattled Sahizades' names. So I looked the boy's father in the eye and said that this is what he needs to remember. And I told my girl that Sikhs don't hate us. And I told myself that it's not an institution that I'll never visit but it's a bare building propagating hatred that I'll never set my foot in. I am sure you would answer with so whats. To approach any opposing viewpoint with nonchalance & disdain and to dismiss it with 'I dont care' is disrespectful. I'm sure my so called friends feel exactly like you do. I hope and I'll even hazard that I know that they don't mean any individual disrespect towards me and my family. But your answers/comments and tone have definitely shed a light why they are or have become so.

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Guest Saddened Hindu   
Guest Saddened Hindu
6 hours ago, harsharan000 said:

Guest saddened Hindu Jee,

Sikhee is above all jaat, paat, genders or any race superiority. 

You see, all religious conflicts are created by the mind, and the poor fools, turn out into fanatics or fundamentalists, be them of any country or dharam; and it is very sad to say, that hardly any community is not infected  with this disease of discrimination.

Whether hindus, muslims, christians, or sikhs in name, those who create and enter into conflicts, racism, discriminations, is mainly because none of them have gone deeper into what their religions teach them to do, which is forget about everything  and everybody else around you and get focused on the divinity within you through devotion; and this, it is evident that nobody does.

In our Aartee, we listen some golden words of our Guru Sahiban : Sabh meh Jot, Jot hae soeee. This means, His Light permeates all beings.

Now these words of Guru Jee, reveal the mental state of a highly evolved avastha being who has merged His consciousness in Him, thus, that being sees Him alone in everyone and every place.

Our Guru Sahiban, only speak the Truth, about which they themselves have experienced within, and share with all the humanity without any limitations.

The rest of us all mortals, we just keep ourselves limited within the four walls of haume, agyanta, koor and krodh, thus our spiritual blindness.

No spirituality is gained by mere intelectualism, rather by putting into action the teachings of  love and devotion to Him alone, in our case as Sikhs.

I would advise you, to leave anybody who promotes hatred and discrimination, do not mind them, no matter if you stand alone in the whole world, because after all, each and everyone has to account for his/her karam, and there no friendship, no chat group, no leaders, no specific community, nor zaat paat is taken into consideration, but only one´s bhakti and love for the Supreme Truth, Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

God bless you.

Sat Sree Akal.

 

Thank you Harsharan000. Could you please guide me towards a reliable and true guide/translation relevant to your answer. I would really appreciate an insight into your approach.

Much regards

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Guest kukki   
Guest kukki
6 hours ago, ThunderousDominator said:

Whatever weve been "taught" has been by your people and leaders and if you wanna be saddened by anything it should be by the actions of your community towards us. As for your so called friends who talk sh!t about you behind your back well they are probably not your real friends than. Sorry if i sounded blunt.

You are the actual troublemakers of unrest *****

 

Admin Note: jaspindjy, Please leave this forum. Thank you.

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Jacfsing2    1,845
10 hours ago, harsharan000 said:

Guest saddened Hindu Jee,

Sikhee is above all jaat, paat, genders or any race superiority. 

You see, all religious conflicts are created by the mind, and the poor fools, turn out into fanatics or fundamentalists, be them of any country or dharam; and it is very sad to say, that hardly any community is not infected  with this disease of discrimination.

Whether hindus, muslims, christians, or sikhs in name, those who create and enter into conflicts, racism, discriminations, is mainly because none of them have gone deeper into what their religions teach them to do, which is forget about everything  and everybody else around you and get focused on the divinity within you through devotion; and this, it is evident that nobody does.

In our Aartee, we listen some golden words of our Guru Sahiban : Sabh meh Jot, Jot hae soeee. This means, His Light permeates all beings.

Now these words of Guru Jee, reveal the mental state of a highly evolved avastha being who has merged His consciousness in Him, thus, that being sees Him alone in everyone and every place.

Our Guru Sahiban, only speak the Truth, about which they themselves have experienced within, and share with all the humanity without any limitations.

The rest of us all mortals, we just keep ourselves limited within the four walls of haume, agyanta, koor and krodh, thus our spiritual blindness.

No spirituality is gained by mere intelectualism, rather by putting into action the teachings of  love and devotion to Him alone, in our case as Sikhs.

I would advise you, to leave anybody who promotes hatred and discrimination, do not mind them, no matter if you stand alone in the whole world, because after all, each and everyone has to account for his/her karam, and there no friendship, no chat group, no leaders, no specific community, nor zaat paat is taken into consideration, but only one´s bhakti and love for the Supreme Truth, Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

God bless you.

Sat Sree Akal.

 

Harsharan, you post some of the greatest stuff on this site,(flat-out, the some of the best); however, I don't think you actually answered the real question on why the conflict happens on a personal standpoint.

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ipledgeblue    72

sikhism isn't real sikhi.

sikhism is the religion which these haters follow, this definition was created by British during colonial times.

the dharmik sikhs follow sikhi, sikh panth.

same with real Hindus. firstly, real hindu term applies as a geographical term for hindustan/bharat/india - but still not a wide term used in ancient times. Gurus include stories of the ancients in bani, such as Grur, NarSingh avtar and bhagat PRahlad, Chandi, Sumbh and Nisumbh etc 

hinduism is again a colonial definition - you cannot package a whole ancient civilisation and it's traditions and cultures into 1 religion. In school they never did this for Ancient Greeks, Romans and Egyptians, so why for Bharat?

it's not the dharmik people who are speaking filth and slander towards each other, it's the religious and ritualistic people of Kaljug - the same kind of ritualism that Guru Nanak stopped during on the Udasis.

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harsharan000    1,911
4 hours ago, Guest Saddened Hindu said:

Thank you Harsharan000. Could you please guide me towards a reliable and true guide/translation relevant to your answer. I would really appreciate an insight into your approach.

Much regards

I am sorry, I do not exactly understand what you want from me.

Please be a bit more specific or clear.

Thanks.

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Guest Saddened Hindu   
Guest Saddened Hindu

Moderator/Administrator, I am still waiting for the comment I made in answer to Jacfsing2 n dominator to be published here. 

Please advise if you felt any/some parts inappropriate for this forum.

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Guest Saddened Hindu   
Guest Saddened Hindu
2 hours ago, harsharan000 said:

I am sorry, I do not exactly understand what you want from me.

Please be a bit more specific or clear.

Thanks.

Dear Harsharan000

What I meant was that your approach towards your belief seems earnest and your commentary on it is quite becoming to the essence of your belief. You appear to have understood the essence of Sikhee in it's completeness. So could you refer some reading material/translation which is unadulterated and unambiguous as I would like to gain a disposition such as yours.

Regards

 

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BhForce    529
21 hours ago, Guest Saddened Hindu said:

My childhood Sikh friends have closed "Only Sikh" chat groups where they share Hindu jokes about coward Hindus,

1. First, welcome to Sikhsangat. Here's my humble approach to your question. Let me start off by apologizing for the Sikhs who made you feel bad. That's not a good thing to do:

ਸਭਨਾ ਮਨ ਮਾਣਿਕ ਠਾਹਣੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਮਚਾਂਗਵਾ ॥

Sabhanaa Man Maanik Thaahan Mool Machaangavaa ||

The minds of all are like precious jewels; to harm them is not good at all.

ਸਲੋਕ ਫਰੀਦ ਜੀ (ਭ. ਫਰੀਦ) (੧੩੦):੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੮੪ ਪੰ. ੧੮ 
Salok Baba Sheikh Farid p. 1384

ਜੇ ਤਉ ਪਿਰੀਆ ਦੀ ਸਿਕ ਹਿਆਉ ਨ ਠਾਹੇ ਕਹੀ ਦਾ ॥੧੩੦॥

Jae Tho Pireeaa Dhee Sik Hiaao N Thaahae Kehee Dhaa ||130||

If you desire your Beloved, then do not break anyone's heart. ||130||

ਸਲੋਕ ਫਰੀਦ ਜੀ (ਭ. ਫਰੀਦ) (੧੩੦):੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੮੪ ਪੰ. ੧੯ 
Salok Baba Sheikh Farid


2. OK, now since we've established that, I'd like to explore why some people might be ornery toward Hindus.

Imagine you're a person, a man, a human being. The leaders of a group of people, lets call them "Hindus", decide that you and your family and relatives are going to pick up their sh#t. Literally. (I don't swear, but I'm just using the word for illustration of the nastiness of the subject.) Or that you're going to be picking up the dead animals of the village, tanning them, and making leather goods of the hides. Nothing wrong with being a leatherworker, except when people call you names, cross the street when you pass, are literally afraid of your shadow (as in not wanting to be in your shadow because they think they'll get a disease from your shadow), don't allow you go into certain streets, throw you out of their religious places, and also don't allow you to choose a different profession if you want, don't allow you to read books of religion, and threaten to pour lead into your ears if you happen to hear religious verses. Do you comprehend the utter inhumanity of such a system, where people, with just a word, can cut your heart, and deny your essential worth? Do you think that at some point you would say, "F*** this sh#t; (literally)! And f*** all you all!"? I think that would be an entirely reasonable reaction. And yet you are surprised that people are making anti-Hindu jokes? 

Again, I'm not saying that people should make anti-Hindu jokes. I'm just saying it's quite understandable if people should do that. This would be similar to blacks in America making fun of white people, possibily with totally uncalled for jokes, like jokes on white men's masculinity, p*nis size, etc. The jokes are hurtful, but you do understand why they would want to denigrate a group that treated them like animals, right?

ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਹਮ ਕਤ ਸੂਦ ॥

Thum Kath Braahaman Ham Kath Soodh ||

How is it that you are a Brahmin, and I am of a low social status?

ਗਉੜੀ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) (੭) ੩:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੨੪ ਪੰ. ੧੮ 
Raag Gauri Bhagat Kabir

ਹਮ ਕਤ ਲੋਹੂ ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਦੂਧ ॥੩॥

Ham Kath Lohoo Thum Kath Dhoodhh ||3||

How is it that I am formed of blood, and you are made of milk? ||3||

ਗਉੜੀ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) (੭) ੩:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੨੪ ਪੰ. ੧੮ 
Raag Gauri Bhagat Kabir, p324

 

3. Let's take another aspect of this: You have people who are not themselves cr*p-lifters or tanners. They're just appalled by the sheer inhumanity of the "Hindu" system. (I put "Hindu" in quotes because I don't want to get sidetracked on the definition of Hindu.) For them, the scavengers and leatherworkers are not pariahs, the real pariahs are those who have made the scavengers and leatherworkers into pariahs. This would be similar to non-blacks in America considering the KKK (who believe blacks to be sub-human) to be pariahs and making fun of them. Everybody in America makes fun of or condemns the KKK, from comedian Stephen Colbert to the President of the United States, Donald Trump (both white men, one on the Left, the other on the Right). Do you think the KKK (people who denigrate the likes of you, a non-white) should be denigrated? Have you ever complained that the KKK is being denigrated?

4. Another aspect: Let's say you're a Sikh living in, say, Delhi. You're embarrassed by your Punjab-residing cousins, whom the media portrays as rabble-rousers or even terrorist. You don't want to look like a terrorist, so you don't have an untied beard. You tie your beard up neatly, you wear a starched, "smart" turban with pins, not a "terrorist turban". You don't wear Punjabi clothes, you wear a shirt and slacks or jeans and a t-shirt, nice shoes. You don't speak Punjabi unless at home, you speak English or Hindi. You don't even take Punjab's side in stuff like river-water allocation, or whatever. And yet ... when you walk down the street or in your college, you're welcomed with "Baran vajj gaye, Sardar ji?" ("Has the clock struck 12?"). And also, in social situations, you're forced to listen to "sardarji jokes", and also to laugh along to show you're a good sport (i.e., a good little trained monkey self-hating Sikh). 

Do you think that, at some point, some Sikh, somewhere, might get the bright idea, "Hey, there are all these Sardarji jokes. Why don't we make some Panditji jokes?" Again, I'm not supporting hateful jokes (see point #1 above). But do you understand why someone might want to turn the tables?

5. As for the religious aspects, I would like to start by asking you, do you consider Guru Nanak ji to be a Hindu? I know that many (most?) Hindus do.

Also, do you consider Sikhs Hindus? Many (most?) Hindus do. That's not surprising, because the Constitution of India says Sikhs are Hindus. 

Now, given the Sikhs are, legally, Hindus, and Hindus consider Sikhs Hindus, if a bunch of Sikhs crack some jokes on Hindus, is there a problem? Basically, it's just Hindus cracking jokes on Hindus. Shouldn't be a problem, right?

As for criticizing Hindus, I and almost every other member of this site criticize, make fun of, and decry Sikhs all the time on this site. Given that, and also if Sikhs are Hindus, they are just Hindus criticizing Hindus. Again, not a problem, right?


Please consider my points seriously. And also please answer all the questions above in response, they are not just rhetorical. Bhul chuk muaf.
 

Edited by BhForce
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BhForce    529

By the way, Guest Saddened Hindu, please make an account. It's free. You get notifications when someone responds to you. It makes having a conversation much easier than posting something, and hoping that the other guy refreshes the page and sees the new post. I do look forward to your reply to my post above.

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