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Did Winston Churchill & British Establishment deliberately want partition and deadly violence in punjab

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On 9/3/2017 at 6:27 AM, Dsinghdp said:

The Muslim population were ready for partition and sharpened their axes to kill Sikhs and Hindus. The Sikhs and Hindus were saying there will be no Pakistan and only leaved the place when they heard the order on the speakers, for them to leave Pakistan.

This is true they massacred Sikhs in Rawalpindi and Thoha Khalsa months before partition even occurred. Muslim league fueled by Jinnah's communalism ensured partition occurred. They raped, killed and burnt Sikhs en-masse and desecrated Gurdwaras starting the blood shed.

Sikhs retaliated fiercely due to Sullehs dirty tactics in partition. We were a minority in population in most areas and Sulleh become so emboldened they thought they could invade our side of Punjab and retake that as well. Sikh Jathas, no matter how morally reprehensible, retaliated in the fiercest and coldest manner as a reaction to sulleh.

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1 hour ago, Singh559 said:

<banned word filter activated> become so emboldened they thought they could invade our side of Punjab and retake that as well

BS .This is propaganda.We have some writers on our side who said the same thing about Sikhs that they want to make a separate country of their Sikhistan and they would conquer Lahore and Nankana Sahib like old days.There were some incidents reported where sikh jathas from East Punjab attacked border villages in West Punjab side as boundaries were not that clear.And there was hardly any pak military on border.There were reports that Sikhs with the help of Sikh princely states want to recapture West Punjab.

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8 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

BS .This is propaganda.We have some writers on our side who said the same thing about Sikhs that they want to make a separate country of their Sikhistan and they would conquer Lahore and Nankana Sahib like old days.There were some incidents reported where sikh jathas from East Punjab attacked border villages in West Punjab side as boundaries were not that clear.And there was hardly any pak military on border.There were reports that Sikhs with the help of Sikh princely states want to recapture West Punjab.

I have first hand accounts from newspapers that show Muslims dressed up with beards and desecrated Mosques to further fuel communal tensions.

Also what I'm talking about is well documented and accepted by both sides of the border. Friend has pictures contemporary to the massacre in MONTHS before partition dated and all.

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On 9/4/2017 at 10:40 AM, superkaur said:

Benefited how? by becoming majority in 1/3 of already halved punjab (between india and pakistan) and enslaved in the hindu majority Indian Union? Genocided in 1980s 90s. Golden temple attacked, books destroyed and looted. women raped, kids killed? What benefit?

And If his actions of drawing the sword infront of a crowd of baying mob of Muslim nationalists rallying for pakistan in 1940s is not the actions of a fool and is not an act of aggression then I dont know what is.

You are aware that the Muslim League threatened the entire Sikh populous of that time, right?  Those Turk-Beerjeh had already started attacking Sikhs a whole year prior to Partition.  It was in their interest to not only drive the Sikh population out, but ethnically cleanse and purge  Panjab of our existence, ensuring they make massive territorial gains.  What Master Tara Singh did was what was rational at that time.  He drew his sword and so what? The Muslims had already stained their own blades with Sikh and Hindu Blood. There was no other viable option. We were losing our land and homes to these people.  You think he should've demanded a Sikh nation? With a disproportionately low Sikh population scattered throughout the districts of Panjab, forming no majority in any of them? 

 

Edited by akaltaksal
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On 9/4/2017 at 10:25 PM, YOYO29 said:

Haryana and Himchal are not Punjabi speaking areas. Districts of Gurgaon,Rohtak and Hissar were not part of punjab.These district were added to Punjab after 1857 war of Independence. Himachal and Haryana people have  weird accent,dialect (more closer to hindi) and they can't be classified as Punjabi.And without carving out haryna and himachal from East Punjab there would have been no Sikh majority.

That's not entirely true.  The northern districts of Haryana and Western districts of Himachal spoke and still do speak some form of Panjabi. Hindi in Ambala, Panchkula, Sirsa, Fatehabad, Jind, Shimla, Una, Solan, Chamba, Western Kangra, Bilaspur, and Kurukshetra is rather new. Hindi was promoted The dialects spoken are more closer to Panjabi than to Hindi. I can go to Kullu and have no difficulty with language there as far as Panjabi is concerned. 

Edited by akaltaksal
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3 hours ago, Singh559 said:

I have first hand accounts from newspapers that show Muslims dressed up with beards and desecrated Mosques to further fuel communal tensions.

Would you like to share that here ? Pictures and newspaper ?

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1 hour ago, akaltaksal said:

I can go to Kullu and have no difficulty with language there as far as Panjabi is concerned. 

here is kullu song and i can't understand a single word apart from this line "Duniya Hundi Buri,Dhoka na khaana'
and i am born Punjabi and lived my entire life in rural Punjab.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z-bEkgw4TE

By going your loose definition of Punjabi many districts in Azad Kashmir and Occupied Jammu n Kashmir can be classified as Punjabi.Una was part of Hoshiarpur district so i can't tell about it how it ended up In himachal ,may be because of its hindu majority.But that is entirely another debate i.e Hindus declaring their languages as Hindi instead of Punjabi in order to stop the division of punjab perhaps they were afraid of another bloody partition. So due to Hindu declaring their languages as Hindi some overwhelmingly punjabi speaking areas ended up in haryana.

And about other cities you have mentioned i can't verify their language status as i don't have first hand knowledge of these cities.But still the fact remains that there were districts which were not punjabi speaking but only for administrative purpose attached to Punjab after 1857 war.And it makes no sense in keeping these non punjabi areas as part of punjab.Anyways if these cities are in Haryana and HP that means they are Hindu majority.And if they were to include in Punjab it would have reduced sikh's status as majority.

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3 hours ago, akaltaksal said:

That's not entirely true.  The northern districts of Haryana and Western districts of Himachal spoke and still do speak some form of Panjabi. Hindi in Ambala, Panchkula, Sirsa, Fatehabad, Jind, Shimla, Una, Solan, Chamba, Western Kangra, Bilaspur, and Kurukshetra is rather new. Hindi was promoted The dialects spoken are more closer to Panjabi than to Hindi. I can go to Kullu and have no difficulty with language there as far as Panjabi is concerned. 

agreed the himichal folks speak Potohari and can hold perfect Punjabi conversation easily - own experience in 2015.

haranvi - is just a made up language to drive home the hindi suba argument , most understand and speak punjabi. it's all spineless behaviour from Hindu panjabis who have no love for their mother land or tongue

you just need to read to understand just how widely spoken Punjabi is , it is now Canada's most spoken immigrant language , I think true in UK too.

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3 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

agreed the himichal folks speak Potohari and can hold perfect Punjabi conversation easily - own experience in 2015.

haranvi - is just a made up language to drive home the hindi suba argument ,

If all the people living in East Punjab were Punjabi and can speak and understand Punjabi then what was the need to create another Punjabi Suba ?? As it was already a punjabi suba ? Why sikh demanded Punjabi suba then ? Does not make sense

Edited by YOYO29

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1 minute ago, YOYO29 said:

If all the people living in East Punjabi were Punjabi can speak and understand Punjabi then what was the need to create another Punjabi Suba ?? As it was already a punjabi suba ? Why sikh demanded Punjabi sub then ? Does not make sense

Punjabi suba had two points:

1. Punjabi was not being recognised as an official language of punjab like the other states(and also like pak punjabi). Punjabis were being punished for speaking using their maa boli in schools , colleges etc 

2. trying to consolidate sikh voice in punjab 

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1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

Punjabi was not being recognised as an official language of punjab like the other states(and also like pak punjabi). Punjabis were being punished for speaking using their maa boli in schools , colleges etc 

2. trying to consolidate sikh voice in punjab

Then they should have asked for only giving official status to Punjabi.There was no need for reorganization East Punjab as it was already a Punjabi province.Everyone knew that demand for Punjabi suba means a sikh majority state.As memory of 1947 parition was fresh so Sikh leadership did not openly use religion card but their aim was clear ; creation of sikh majority state.
And Sikh majority can only be established if Hindu majority districts were separated from East Punjab.

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6 minutes ago, YOYO29 said:

Then they should have asked for only giving official status to Punjabi.There was no need for reorganization East Punjab as it was already a Punjabi province.Everyone knew that demand for Punjabi suba means a sikh majority state.As memory of 1947 parition was fresh so Sikh leadership did not openly use religion card but their aim was clear ; creation of sikh majority state.
And Sikh majority can only be established if Hindu majority districts were separated from East Punjab.

but it was Hindu  activists like arya samaj who 'persuaded' hindu panjabis to claim Hindi as their maa boli to divide panjab ... so it is  hard to blame sikhs  when it was the hindus who ultimately subdivided on religious basis using a language suberterfuge rather than stick to their cultural roots

ultimately Panjab is being murdered slowly and steadily by the governments of both countries and its history obiliterated

Edited by jkvlondon

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Punjabi Hindus betrayed Punjab when they voted for Hindi language even 100% of their life in home and outside they only spoke Punjabi. This is one reason why Punjab got betrayed by these backstabers (of course those who voted for Hindi). 

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4 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

ultimately Panjab is being murdered slowly and steadily by the governments of both countries and its history obiliterated

In our side punjabi language's fate is sealed.People are ashamed to speak Punjabi due to fear of being judged as pendu.Sadly there is no future for punjabi in pakistan. I don't remember when was the last time a book in punjabi was published in Punjab.

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12 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

here is kullu song and i can't understand a single word apart from this line "Duniya Hundi Buri,Dhoka na khaana'
and i am born Punjabi and lived my entire life in rural Punjab.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z-bEkgw4TE

By going your loose definition of Punjabi many districts in Azad Kashmir and Occupied Jammu n Kashmir can be classified as Punjabi.Una was part of Hoshiarpur district so i can't tell about it how it ended up In himachal ,may be because of its hindu majority.But that is entirely another debate i.e Hindus declaring their languages as Hindi instead of Punjabi in order to stop the division of punjab perhaps they were afraid of another bloody partition. So due to Hindu declaring their languages as Hindi some overwhelmingly punjabi speaking areas ended up in haryana.

And about other cities you have mentioned i can't verify their language status as i don't have first hand knowledge of these cities.But still the fact remains that there were districts which were not punjabi speaking but only for administrative purpose attached to Punjab after 1857 war.And it makes no sense in keeping these non punjabi areas as part of punjab.Anyways if these cities are in Haryana and HP that means they are Hindu majority.And if they were to include in Punjab it would have reduced sikh's status as majority.

Like I said, Hindi is rather new there. Your Panjab is not the same as our Panjab. There's a significant difference. 

 

That could be debatable, there is a siginificant Sikh population in those areas, so it would tilt the scale in our favor. Secondly, most of the Sikhs in UP, Madhya Pradesh, Bikaner, and Delhi should have been kept in those areas to balance the population out and to maintain our status.

 

to Address your points about the dialects, I have spent a lot of life in East Panjab, so I have acquainted myself with many of the dialects there.

As for that song, the dialect is very close to the one spoken in Chandigarh, Panchkula, and parts of Patiala. Theth Pawadhi. It even bears resemblence with rural Ludhianvi boli. And It has some Hindi and Pahari influence noticably. 

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