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Did Winston Churchill & British Establishment deliberately want partition and deadly violence in punjab


superkaur
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On 03/09/2017 at 6:34 PM, superkaur said:

Good point about letting native states becoming independent, however that was what happened a few of the states did not want to join india or pakistan. The most contentious of them being kashmir,  hyrderbad and sikkim where the Indian army was used to invade, dethrown the native leaders/maharajahs and force the states to join the Indian Union.

So the game plan of the British was to have a finger in many pies. Pakistan would become their main base and hub to conduct operations in south asia. India was going to be treated as a neutral or enemy state especially when the USSR soviet union had started to help Indian congress party govt in energy infrastructure and other development projects. And the native states that were outside the control of new delhi were going to be used as another convenient trading posts for British goods and commerce.

 

The Kashmiri King wished to remain independent but Jinah wanted it to be part of Pakistan. The newly formed pak govt sponsored tribal afghans to invade and secure Kahsmir for Pakistan. This invasion made the King, hari Singh sign Kashmir over to india in order to get security from pakistan.

 

If the tribals hadnt invaded Kashmir would have remained independent and a muslim majority country. In hindsight the pakistan move was one of grave folly. But unfortunately they haven't learnt the lesson.

 

On 03/09/2017 at 6:40 PM, superkaur said:

Its important to conclude and remember so that all those Sikhs who suck up to the racist british establishment and thinking they would have granted a separate Sikh nation had it not been for the foolishness of master tara singh (who was a fool) and the leadership do not realise what the British game plan was.

 

So many people blame Master Tara Singh whereas it was baldev Singh who sealed the fate of the Sikhs. The reality of the time was that Master Tara Singhs hand were tied. The Sikh community was at a disadvantage in more or less every sphere. There were no friends, only enemies, and most the energies of the Sikhs were spent fighting the creation of Pakistan. There was no plan B.

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12 hours ago, chatanga said:

The Kashmiri King wished to remain independent but Jinah wanted it to be part of Pakistan.

As does every Pakistani because Jammu and Kashmir was 77 % Muslim majority state.

 

12 hours ago, chatanga said:

The newly formed pak govt sponsored tribal afghans to invade and secure Kahsmir for Pakistan. This invasion made the King, hari Singh sign Kashmir over to india in order to get security from pakistan.

Nehru already had plans for Kashmir that is why he used his influence on Mountbatten to get Gurdaspur which was a Muslim majority district and India's only link with Kashmir.Even in notional division which was created to decide the future of Punjab,Gurdaspur was placed in Western block.
And according to Christopher Snedden an Australian author of book "Kashmir-Untold Story" invasion of tribal people happened only due to reports of muslim massacre in Jammu.In Jammu, Muslim villages were burnt and thousands of Muslims have taken refuge near Sialkot. Mirpur Muslims have already rebelled against Maharaja.Christopher Snedden also wrote that it makes sense for India to blame everything on tribal afghans but pakistan has also acquiesced to this Indian narrative which states that trouble started with pathan invasion which is not true. Long before any pathan invasion,Muslims have rebelled against Hindu rule.It was an indigenous movement.

And the 95 thousand sq km territory of Gilgit Baltistan and Azad Kashmir which we control today was not liberated by Pathans or Pakistan army.These ares were liberated by local people themselves.Pak army was involved at a later stage when Indian army started crushing mutiny in Kashmir.

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11 hours ago, S1ngh said:

It's important to note that both sides- east and west Punjab are fighting rigorous battle against the system that is pushing Urdu and Hindi on Punjabi speaking culture.

well i can only speaks for west Punjab.Recently i have come across some pages on Facebook run  by Urdu speakers of Karachi.They have started a campaign on social media against the usage of Punjabi in tv talk shows.Even though these tv shows are are private channels and theses shows are produced in Punjab.They are so insecure that they can't tolerate a few Punjabi words in tv talk shows or funny programs even though now Punjabis are more than 110 millions (according to 2017 census) in Pakistan which is more than half population of punjab.I was to see the reponse of some punabis against this propganda by Urdu speakers.And this is a good start but i think it will be miracle when Punjabis in pak will take pride in speaking Punjabi without feeling embarrassed.

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21 hours ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

I think that is a phenomena based in Punjab only. I've met a few diaspora Pakistani Punjabis who are trying to organize forums etc to preserve Punjabi and their respective dialects. 

Good to know.I hope they are successful in their mission.I'm waiting for the day when Punjabi will be revived in punjab and our CM will address the punjab assembly in Punjabi. But I don't know if i would be alive to see that day lol

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15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

As does every Pakistani because Jammu and Kashmir was 77 % Muslim majority state.

 

Of course it was only natural that the ML wanted Kashmir to be part of Pakistan because of its demographics. The difference was that the popluation counted for nothing. It was a princely state which that only the King had the right to make the decision. Plus the "K" of Kashmir was to be in the name of Pakistan. No K, would jhave meant the country could have ended up being called Paistan.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

As does every Pakistani

If only Kashmiris felt same as well.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

Nehru already had plans for Kashmir
 

If you have read extensivley on this you will have seen that Nehru has resigned himslef to losing Kashmir to Pakistan. The activiites of the Pak govt proivided him with a lifeline to take Kashmir.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

Nehru already had plans for Kashmir that is why he used his influence on Mountbatten to get Gurdaspur which was a Muslim majority district and India's only link with Kashmir.Even in notional division which was created to decide the future of Punjab,Gurdaspur was placed in Western block.
 

 

Gurdaspur had a muslim majority of 0.1%. The majority of the Muslims of Gurdaspur lived in the one of the tehsils that was awarded to Pakistan. Their numbers in Zaffarwal tehsil was a lot and the population in this tehsil was much greater than the others. That is why Gurdaspur had an extremely slight numerical advantage but when the situation was moved from a district level to e Tehsil, this decision was right.

 

Muslims in Panjab were 55% of the population yet were rewarded 61 of the land mass. That in itself was extremely unfair.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:


And according to Christopher Snedden an Australian author of book "Kashmir-Untold Story" invasion of tribal people happened only due to reports of muslim massacre in Jammu.In Jammu, Muslim villages were burnt and thousands of Muslims have taken refuge near Sialkot. Mirpur Muslims have already rebelled against Maharaja.Christopher Snedden also wrote that it makes sense for India to blame everything on tribal afghans but pakistan has also acquiesced to this Indian narrative which states that trouble started with pathan invasion which is not true. Long before any pathan invasion,Muslims have rebelled against Hindu rule.It was an indigenous movement.
 

 

I have many books on Pakistan, and Kashmir, (many unread yet as I have that many), but if you think the tribaks invaded because they wanted to avenge muslim deaths in Jammu, you have been mislead. The initial rebellion in Poonch was against the King of Kashmir, because he was afraid of the Poonch regiments wanting to join Pakistan so he tried to have them disarmed. They rebelled and were holding their ground extremely well against the Kings other troops. It was decided to send in tribals to help them after the Dogra troops starting tgetting the upper hand.

These tribals  caused havoc wherever they went and after the hindu and sikhs were gone, they turned on the native population that was left. India had the chance to destory these tribals but were scared off of going to  close to Pakistans border as they didnt want to be seen as threatening Pakistan in the world arena.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

 Long before any pathan invasion,Muslims have rebelled against Hindu rule.

 

 

It was not a hindu vs muslims thing. The King himself was leaning towards Pakistan until the invasion happened. The King wanted Kahsmir  to remain independent but would have chosen Pakistan over India as the vast majority of Kashmirs trade was through Panjab (Sialkot/Gujrat) and it made economical sense to be in Pakistan than india.

 

And thats really quite ironic isnt it? The ML starting fighting for something that would have come to them any way, and the Kashmiris wanting an independent state today have their state ruled by two other states.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:


And the 95 thousand sq km territory of Gilgit Baltistan and Azad Kashmir which we control today was not liberated by Pathans or Pakistan army.These ares were liberated by local people themselves.Pak army was involved at a later stage when Indian army started crushing mutiny in Kashmir.

 

Kashmir, was not liberated by locals. they didnt have a pot to piss in. It was Pak army hardware, partialy financed by Hyderabad (indian) state, that gave weapons, food and soldiers to lead the tribals.

I dontknow about Baltistan.

 

Gilgit on the other hand was secured by a british army officer with Pakistan troops.

 

I dont know why you want to peddle Pakistani state narratives here.

 

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15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

well i can only speaks for west Punjab.Recently i have come across some pages on Facebook run  by Urdu speakers of Karachi.They have started a campaign on social media against the usage of Punjabi in tv talk shows.Even though these tv shows are are private channels and theses shows are produced in Punjab.They are so insecure that they can't tolerate a few Punjabi words in tv talk shows or funny programs even though now Punjabis are more than 110 millions (according to 2017 census) in Pakistan which is more than half population of punjab.I was to see the reponse of some punabis against this propganda by Urdu speakers.And this is a good start but i think it will be miracle when Punjabis in pak will take pride in speaking Punjabi without feeling embarrassed.

 

You need to take lessons from the Bengalis. They refused to give up their mother tongue for some hybrid manufactured language. they have my respect for that more than the Muslims who live in Panjab.

 

15 hours ago, YOYO29 said:

Good to know.I hope they are successful in their mission.I'm waiting for the day when Punjabi will be revived in punjab and our CM will address the punjab assembly in Punjabi. But I don't know if i would be alive to see that day lol

 

I don't know about the CM of Panjab. I remember during a Kabaddi match in indian Panjab, the CM Shahbaz Sharif was invited to say a few words. He couldnt even put 2 Panjabi words together before he started talking in Urdu. Its a shame no-one turned the mic off so we had to listen to that.

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10 hours ago, chatanga said:

I dont know why you want to peddle Pakistani state narratives here.

Not Pakistani narrative as Pakistani narrative gives no credit to locals.All credit is given to pak army and tribal pathans.Whatever i wrote i took it from two sources Christopher Snedden's books on kashmir and  Alex von Tunzelmann's book Indian summer.Here is page from Indian summer.

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It was Mirpur or Poonch where there ware great many retired military soldiers.Majority of them were Muslims and now when the ww2 was over they had no jobs.And they were also fed up of mahraja and and heavy taxes so they decided to fight and liberate their lands.About Gilgit,over there muslim scouts led by british army officer played huge role in liberating it.This area was given to british by maharaja on lease for 90 years (if i member correctly) and just a couple of days back it has been officially returned to Mahraja by British govt and maharaj's representative was sent there to secure possession of gilgit but later on he had to flee to save his life.

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10 hours ago, chatanga said:

I don't know about the CM of Panjab. I remember during a Kabaddi match in indian Panjab, the CM Shahbaz Sharif was invited to say a few words.

i watched that video on utube.I read somewher ,when a delegation of punjabi language activist wen to visit Nawaz Sharif when he was CM of Punjab and asked him to promote punjabi in punjab and also in punjab assebmly as punjabi is our mother tongue.But that dude said that "I'm Kashmiri not Punjabi" even though his family has been living in punjab since the last 3 generations.

Situation of bengalis is different from punjabis. Bengalis have one common script which both hindu and bengali muslims use.Wheras we Punjabis don't have one.There used to be a script called landa which was neutral script but that is not used anywhere now.You have gurmukhi,we have persian script and hindus have Devanagari.Had there been a common script to which all punjabi ascribed regardless of religious difference situation might have been different. It's pity that punjabi is orphan language in a country where Punjabis are in majority wheras it is flourshing in countries where there are less than 2 percent punjabis live.

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