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Why Sikhs cant be exonerated for rise of Ram Rahims in and around Punjab

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singhbj singh    1,136

It's because they brazenly violated their own caste-less doctrine.

 

Who all are these followers of Ram Rahim swamping highways and streets of Haryana and Punjab?

Who all are these men, women and children ready to confront the State in case their leader, accused of serious criminal charges, is convicted on Friday?

How could someone who has made a spectacle of himself in his own films and someone who shows up in psychedelic outfits command such a support base?

Well, most of his disciples are Dalits.

http://www.dailyo.in/lite/politics/sikhs-gurmeet-ram-rahim-dera-sacha-sauda/story/1/19157.html

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dallysingh101    1,583
51 minutes ago, singhbj singh said:

It's because they brazenly violated their own caste-less doctrine.

 

Who all are these followers of Ram Rahim swamping highways and streets of Haryana and Punjab?

Who all are these men, women and children ready to confront the State in case their leader, accused of serious criminal charges, is convicted on Friday?

How could someone who has made a spectacle of himself in his own films and someone who shows up in psychedelic outfits command such a support base?

Well, most of his disciples are Dalits.

http://www.dailyo.in/lite/politics/sikhs-gurmeet-ram-rahim-dera-sacha-sauda/story/1/19157.html

Talking to certain Sikhs about casteism within the panth seems futile these days. Certain people's obsession with their caste identity seems to trump any logical argument about the harm it does. 

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Tejvir    17
22 hours ago, Balkaar said:

We Sikhs are #1 enemies of Sikhi today. We do more to harm our own faith than any Hindu or Musalman. 

That's why Dalits are following ram Rahim, they see his preaching of 'insaan'iate inclusive and not exclusive which I'm sorry to say is happening in Sikhi via caste based guru ghars.

I need to learn what Guru Sahib teaches in his writings in order to explain that it is not exclusive but for all humanity.

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singhbj singh    1,136

What explains the huge popularity of deras in Punjab? Pramod Kumar , a social scientist, seeks to decode the reasons behind their rise & growth

What are the social roots of the deras?

The deras are poor cousins of institutionalised religions. They primarily represent the disadvantaged subaltern and the lower middle class. Their followers are people who subsist on the margins both in terms of economy and the caste system. There is no caste discrimination in deras.


What has caused the spread of deras?

The followers of the deras feel largely excluded from institutions such as village panchayats, district administrations, police and courts.
Their daily experiences range from denial of identity and dignity and coercive extraction of labour. They have far greater faith in the dera than in the political class or judiciary. They feel the dera is morally superior to these institutions.


For instance, many women like deras because they preach against consumption of alcohol and drug abuse which leads to lessening of domestic violence. The deras are a sub-culture; they create a new social capital which the followers appropriate. People also start marrying within the deras. Over the years, deras have accumulated land and property through state patronage, donations and business, enabling them to subsidise the impoverished, give them cereals and provide access to health facilities. Wherever the government and the political class fail, the deras step in and deliver. Followers believe deras have brought them the achhe din the state couldn't. The political class always tries to use their support base to their advantage in polls, while self-proclaimed godmen exploit the complete allegiance of followers to put pressure on the law.

What explains the popularity of the Dera Sacha Sauda chief?

He has reinvented the dera culture in a new market-driven economy. He wears flamboyant costumes and ornate jewellery, acts in films and makes money from them. He also knows how to use the electronic and social media.

Would you say that deras are a form protest against other religions?

Institutional religions have been intolerant of lower castes and have pushed them towards deras, which are a confluence of castes and religions. Why is Punjab such a fertile ground for deras? In Punjab, religious oral tradition is very strong. People don't interact as much with the text as listen to religious discourses (pravachans). In this cultural backdrop, gurus who can deliver sermons become popular. Punjab is known for its liberal religious tradition. Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Brahmo Samaj, Arya Samaj — different religions and sects found a place here. When people do not get to practice religion the way they want, they move to other choices.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/gurmeet-ram-rahim-reinvented-dera-culture/articleshow/60228418.cms

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Jacfsing2    1,845
On 8/24/2017 at 3:24 PM, Balkaar said:

We Sikhs are #1 enemies of Sikhi today. We do more to harm our own faith than any Hindu or Musalman. 

I do agree, that the greatest enemy are those who pretend to be Sikhs, but aren't really Sikhs. Sometimes people are too loyal to pre-Sikh loyalties, that the name of Vaheguru is an afterthought.

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Premi5    53

We Sikhs need to wake up, but it will take many generations for the caste thing to be marginalised

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dallysingh101    1,583
On 8/26/2017 at 5:28 PM, Premi5 said:

We Sikhs need to wake up, but it will take many generations for the caste thing to be marginalised

Wake up. It isn't even going in the right direction. Take a look at most modern 'Panjabi' films and a lot of the songs (by this I mean those released in last few years). They are heavily caste based. 

Maybe we should face facts and hold our hands up at the truth? Is this problem is entirely of our own making. 

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Balkaar    1,425
On 8/26/2017 at 10:32 AM, Jacfsing2 said:

I do agree, that the greatest enemy are those who pretend to be Sikhs, but aren't really Sikhs. Sometimes people are too loyal to pre-Sikh loyalties, that the name of Vaheguru is an afterthought.

We shouldn't try to ration the blame here. Every one of us is guilty, all the fake Sikhs for continuing to breath life into the monstrosities of caste and sexism, and the rest of us 'real' Sikhs for doing nothing at all to stop them. We can only move forward as a people if we all acknowledge our personal complicity in the vandalism of our nation. 

Edited by Balkaar
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Jacfsing2    1,845
13 minutes ago, Balkaar said:

We shouldn't try to ration the blame here. Every one of us is guilty, all the fake Sikhs for continuing to breath life into the monstrosities of caste and sexism, and the rest of us 'real' Sikhs for doing nothing at all to stop them. We can only move forward as a people if we all acknowledge our personal complicity in the vandalism of our nation. 

I think we have bigger issues than somebody remembering their ancestors were farmers or warriors or Hindu preachers, if you ask me. If you are expecting a world where nobody knows what their ancestors did or why they have certain genetics, I don't see that in a long time; however, if you are talking about ending prejudice for those who have different ancestors then I agree. Also what are you talking about sexism for? If you are planning on women being Punj Pyare, I wholeheartedly say NO, regardless of what some SJWs say.

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Jacfsing2    1,845
2 minutes ago, jaspindjy said:

Our caste is our identity so we stick with our caste we born in, no harm done. Everyone should be proud of their caste no harm done.

Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that he was our father and Mata Sahib Kaur was the mother.

"In Putran ke sis par // diye sut chaar

Chaar mooye to kia hua jeevat kayee hazar"

which means that Guru Sahib gave his 4 biological sons, so thousands of his kids through Khalsa could survive. There is no reason to be proud of caste or ancestors.

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Kira    1,219
Just now, jaspindjy said:

We should and must treat all castes equal that's what I say. Be proud of everyone in the Panth as well as our respected ancestors.

That's not what Guru Sahib did and that's not what we should do. Asking someone their caste is akin of saying Amrit is nothing more than water. Bhai Gurdas Ji made it clear in his varan that Guru Nanak Dev Ji merged all the castes into 1 caste. So no. Showing pride in your caste is nothing more than haumai.

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Kira    1,219
17 minutes ago, jaspindjy said:

I will never ask anyone about which is their caste, never. What I am trying to say is that we should treat everyone equal and not be judgemental about others caste. .

What castes? they don't exist in Sikhism. Once someone takes Amrit they have no caste, nor do any Sikhs have any castes. The people who drag castes into Sikhi are no sikhs.

Quote

 For example, when we meet people for the first time, we should treat them nicely just like how we treat everyone else and not start treating anyone differently once we find what caste they are. The bad thing about castes is we can immediately guess from their surnames. When everyone uses 'singh or kaur' instead of surnames then no one will know anyones caste. This is how I think and I have a lots of respect for everyone when I meet them.

You have your answer there then. Guru Sahib abolished the Caste System, stop trying to bring it back in any shape or form. Sikhs have no castes, end of story. The Lord gave the surnames Kaur and Singh especially to destroy the idiots who have pride in their castes. 

Like I said Bhai Gurdas Ji made it clear that Guru Nanak Dev Ji merged them all into one, there aren't any castes in Sikhism, if you want castes then turn to Hinduism. Anyone seeing castes or showing pride in it in spitting in the face of Guru Sahib's own creed. If you believe in the Amrit Sanchar then castes don't exist.

This same nonsensical argument that you're trying can be applied to any tenant of Sikhism to justify heresy. 

If Bhai Gurdas Ji wrote that Guru Sahib abolished it then who are we to question him. Guru Nanak Dev Ji called it useless (bland), why cling to it when its useless. You may as well cling to a spoon in a war zone rather than a gun.

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