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Why Sikhs cant be exonerated for rise of Ram Rahims in and around Punjab

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JSinghnz    925
2 hours ago, silverSingh said:

Real sikhs also accept god's will and live in his  bhana and not accuse others of something they are not. If it is god's will that one should be born in a sikh family, then they will be born there and there is nothing anyone can do about it. When we accept god's will we accept our family together with its race, religion and its caste.  All sikhs have castes that is why they look for rishteys for their children in their own castes and the proof is in the matrimonial lists and registers held by various agencies, religious or secular.

Think before you open your trap to utter sheer nonesense in the future. <banned word filter activated> fool.

Because you are too  thick to understand simple stuff like that there is no casteism in Sikhi I am saying again that

Those having the false pride of caste are called "fool" and "ignorant" in the Gurbani. To put it otherwise, as the Gurbani indicates, those who practice caste distinction and feel pride of their belief in Jaat-Paat are foolish and spiritually ignorant beings.

ਜਾਤਿ ਕਾ ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖ ਗਵਾਰਾ ॥ ਇਸੁ ਗਰਬ ਤੇ ਚਲਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਵਿਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਚਾਰੇ ਵਰਨ ਆਖੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬਿੰਦ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥ ਮਾਟੀ ਏਕ ਸਗਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਘੜੈ ਕੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰਾ ॥੩॥ ਪੰਚ ਤਤੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਾ ਆਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਘਟਿ ਵਧਿ ਕੋ ਕਰੈ ਬੀਚਾਰਾ ॥੪॥: Jaat kaa garab n kar moorakh gavaaraa. Is garab te chalahi bahut vikaaraa ||1||Rahaaou||...: Do not be proud of your (higher or ਉੱਚੀ) Jaati, you ignorant fool! So much Bikaar comes from this pride. ||1||Rahaaou|| Every one says there are four Varan (four social classes or caste - Brahmin, Khatri, Vaish, Shoodar - but) all emanate from God's Seed (from One Light). ||2|| As the potter shapes all sorts of vessels, similarly, so is this entire universe (shaped from One Clay of God's Light). ||3|| The five elements join together, to make up the form of the human body. Who can say which has less (elements), and which has more (elements)? ||4|| (sggs 1127-1128).

 

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Jacfsing2    1,845
3 hours ago, silverSingh said:

No one said you were but if the other person said he was a jat and proud of it why did you accuse him for being a casteist.  Again, if you don't have a caste for whatever reasons, does it mean if others have it and are proud of it, that you accuse them of being casteist? What gives you the right to do so? Your caste may not matter to you in this day and age, but that does not mean that it does not matter to others in this day and age! People are very proud of who they are, no one has the right to accuse them of being something they are not.

I was on this forum that night when the discussion finally ended. I was so horrified at your behavior towards the other poster that I can't find words to express my horror. You carried on accusing him of being a casteist when he emphatically kept on denying it and telling you again and again that he is a jatt and very proud of it! What part of his repetitive reply could you not understand? He admitted that he is no expert on others' castes. If picking on him wasn't enough then you decided to gang up on him together with that 'kira' girl like a pair of vultures.

If you rather want to be of the lowest caste then don't accuse others for openly expressing their pride in who and what caste they are. If someone is of a higher caste that does not make them a heretic. One can be of a lower caste and be a heretic for god's sake! How foolish can you get with you stupidity is beyond words. I am surprised they have not banned you from the forum for swearing at prophets of other religions and stirring up racial hatred. What does your sheer racist attitude which you openly admit to and express unequivocally tell us about you?

I had respected you in the past but after seeing how you behave towards everyone on this forum I have none left. Your behavior was  like two unsupervised bullies in the playground towards that poster.

I don't care how much you respect me, I was saying the truth that Sikhs have no caste and will continue promoting Anti-caste, whether that's Jaat power or Brahmin supremacy or whatever. I don't need @Kira to agree with me, but if we do agree, I won't claim to say that we had different views. Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself gave us names of Singhs and Kaurs, not to be ghulamis to a caste, but to think above it. And that is something you and all your troll supporters can't comprehend for being too attached to your caste. Read some Gurbani sometime, it will agree that my position, in fact you only see small amounts of Anti-racist/Anti-casteism behavoir, but in Gurmat it goes even deeper into equality, something you can't understand.

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JUSTAJATT    63
8 hours ago, silverSingh said:

I think you mean to say 'discriminate' instead of 'differentiate'. If we discriminate others on the basis of their caste it is very damaging and disgusting. It is digusting to look down on people on the basis of their color, gender, caste or religion. Discrimination is a very bad thing. Whereas, there is nothing wrong in feeling proud of your caste and your ancestors' trade/occupation. 

I agree with you when you state you can address....................! Very good point.

This is exactly what the other poster was saying. He said exacly the same thing that he was very proud of being a jat and that does not make him a casteist at all. A casteist person would be someone who discriminates others on the basis of their caste. What if a Lohar came along and said he was very proud of being a lohar? W ould that make him a castist at all? Not in my opinion!

Black people are very proud of their color same as the white people are, and so they should be!   I have met many westerners with surnames such as 'Cobblers' or 'Brewers' or 'Carpenters' or 'Taylors' and they always tell you their ancestors engaged in these trades or occupations and that is how they inherited these surnames. I have also heard many westerners say they are very  proud of their racial heritage.

  I am also very proud of my caste but I do not discriminate against anyone of a different caste and this definitely does not make me a castist.  No Sir!!!

Discrimination or (differentiation) is very harmful and damaging AND Discrimination is not same as being proud of your or one's caste. Discrimination is not same as being proud of your color, race, heritage, ancestoral trade or anything you have such as your wealth or high status.

I know Jaspindjy was not in favor of raising funds for someone perfectly able to work and pay her own mortgage but he was not a castestist at all. He asked perfectly valid questions in that thread regarding raising funds for sikh conversions and his first wife, but I did not find his posts expressing any discrimination at all towards other castes!  So, the reason his posts have been taken off the forum is his fundraising preferences and nothing to do with his being proud of his caste or who he is.  How low can you get on this forum is beyond belief! To judge people for refusing to donate money towards someone who no one knows or cares about is just so shocking! Even I never heard of this person NOT that I would like to know the shite with a face like a duffer!  He was only proud of being a jatt and none of his posts expressed any discrimination towards other castes. In fact, he said he is not an 'expert' on castes. So why did they attack him? Is it because he was so proud of his caste and not discriminatory towards anyone else on this forum? You people need to grow up and understand what someone was saying in his posts. He was not a casteistist by any standards.

Please, don't think that I am joking when I say that i am also very proud to be a jatt just like 'JUSTAJUTT' and 'jaspindjy'  so anyone with a chip on their shoulders, trying to brainwash others over here can JUST GO TO HELL WHERE YOU BELONG...Scram!! Stop accusing those proud of who and what they are of CASTEISM!!!

You are not even sikhs if you cannot accept his will or his bani which clearly states:' thereah baahna mittah'

You are correct 'JUSTAJATT' when you say:

" Being proud of your color, proud of your race, proud of your heritage and proud of your ancestory trade is accepting God's wiil as "thereah baahna mittah" 

Being proud of who and what you are doesn't make you predjudice. Being proud to be black doesn't mean you on the other end of spectrum to Ku klux kan,>>doesn;t mean your a honkey basher. So why does being proud of being a jatt or chamar make you casteist.

 

I'm glad that someone gets it and understands this issue.  I know i used the word "differentiate" because I was translating the punjabi term of "farakh" or doing farakh>>>differentiating with others due to their ancestory and lineage.

You are correct>> that  Discriminate is a better term to be using to describe the probllem that society has thrown in to tribal clans and their trades just to upset and corrupt the whole system.

It took me some years to understand this issue that has been created by society, and my dad was the one who taught me about my own family lineage going back to late 16th century rajputs>> and how we got our surname and settled in few pinds into the jatt trade.   

If my dad had not encouraged me to be proud of my own colour, race, ancestory clans and jatt trade>>> then I have no idea where i would have ended up as I only hung around with black afrocarrribean's  and did their thing for years   >>>>We all have our own stories of what may have brought us into sikhi>>>> but for me>> it was my Jatt factor and lineage roots that helped me wanna be more punjabi>>> which in turn helped me into sikhi.  

 

I find it sad>>> that people think of being proud of your tribal clan trade automatically enrolls you into the discriminating/predjudice brigade.

 

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JUSTAJATT    63

Funny how people think that i'm automatically discriminating with others if i'm proud of my ancestry and it's trades.

But I actually wonder how many of you have yourselves or have immediate family members married outside if caste??

Those that haven't>> are usually the ones that see the hierarchy.  >>>ME, i don;t see any difference and i don't see no caste being higher or lower on any social scale.  This is what sikhi is saying.  Sikhi does NOT say to abolish family tribal clans and their trades.>>>it doesn't say stop  being the farmer or cobbler>> or pot maker.     Sikhi is about Grishsti jeevan that involves being in trade and working. 

As I see no difference in trades or caste, I also know that nowadays and especially in west, no one does the trades of their forefathers. Those days, the same like minded clans married into the same link minded castes that worked in the same trades for their livelihoods.  Today this is no longer needed,  as most of my family jatts haven't ever done an ounce of kethi baanee or farming. THEREFORE, As Me or my immediate's  don;t discriminate or see any high or low in trades, we  don't see no reason why any of us shouldn't marry to any other trade lineage.   >>>>MY SISTER and ME are BOTH married to Different Jaaths that are NOT JATT.    

NOTE- MY WIFE IS NOT JATT... so how the hell can i be casteist>>when i see no difference or reason.

I seriosuly wonder how many of you preachers like KIWI @JSinghnz  have married or even LOOKING to marry out of caste???

are you married @JSinghnz , if NOT, are you looking to  marry someone from any other jaath??

Other thing I noticed was that ALL these sikhs looking for rishtaas and get get hitched are always the ones looking at the castes.  So> Who is really the casteist and predjudice ??  ME or Them ???

I'm proud to be the JATT that I am and from the origins I come from. MY WIFE (from non-jatt jaaath) is proud to call me her Ranjha Jatt.    

 

 

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JSinghnz    925
9 minutes ago, JUSTAJATT said:

Funny how people think that i'm automatically discriminating with others if i'm proud of my ancestry and it's trades.

But I actually wonder how many of you have yourselves or have immediate family members married outside if caste??

Those that haven't>> are usually the ones that see the hierarchy.  >>>ME, i don;t see any difference and i don't see no caste being higher or lower on any social scale.  This is what sikhi is saying.  Sikhi does NOT say to abolish family tribal clans and their trades.>>>it doesn't say stop  being the farmer or cobbler>> or pot maker.     Sikhi is about Grishsti jeevan that involves being in trade and working. 

As I see no difference in trades or caste, I also know that nowadays and especially in west, no one does the trades of their forefathers. Those days, the same like minded clans married into the same link minded castes that worked in the same trades for their livelihoods.  Today this is no longer needed,  as most of my family jatts haven't ever done an ounce of kethi baanee or farming. THEREFORE, As Me or my immediate's  don;t discriminate or see any high or low in trades, we  don't see no reason why any of us shouldn't marry to any other trade lineage.   >>>>MY SISTER and ME are BOTH married to Different Jaaths that are NOT JATT.    

NOTE- MY WIFE IS NOT JATT... so how the hell can i be casteist>>when i see no difference or reason.

I seriosuly wonder how many of you preachers like KIWI @JSinghnz  have married or even LOOKING to marry out of caste???

are you married @JSinghnz , if NOT, are you looking to  marry someone from any other jaath??

Other thing I noticed was that ALL these sikhs looking for rishtaas and get get hitched are always the ones looking at the castes.  So> Who is really the casteist and predjudice ??  ME or Them ???

I'm proud to be the JATT that I am and from the origins I come from. MY WIFE (from non-jatt jaaath) is proud to call me her Ranjha Jatt.    

 

 

Waiting for the day when you will be ready to say I'm proud to be a SIKH and one day you will be there for sure.

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Jacfsing2    1,845
11 hours ago, Jacfsing2 said:

I don't care how much you respect me, I was saying the truth that Sikhs have no caste and will continue promoting Anti-caste, whether that's Jaat power or Brahmin supremacy or whatever. I don't need @Kira to agree with me, but if we do agree, I won't claim to say that we had different views. Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself gave us names of Singhs and Kaurs, not to be ghulamis to a caste, but to think above it. And that is something you and all your troll supporters can't comprehend for being too attached to your caste. Read some Gurbani sometime, it will agree that my position, in fact you only see small amounts of Anti-racist/Anti-casteism behavoir, but in Gurmat it goes even deeper into equality, something you can't understand.

 

On 8/29/2017 at 0:28 AM, Jacfsing2 said:

I never claimed to be Jat whatsoever, or any caste really, (not really important if you ask me, whether I'm a Brahmin or Dalit especially in this day and age). But I'd rather be of the lowest caste and a real Sikh, than being the highest caste and being some heretic.

 

On 8/28/2017 at 4:49 PM, Jacfsing2 said:

Amritdharis like yourself are worse than RSS.

 

On 8/28/2017 at 8:51 PM, Jacfsing2 said:

Man, listen to some of the junk you've been spreading.

 

On 8/28/2017 at 9:00 PM, Jacfsing2 said:

:notalk:

Nobody is jealous of you. Honestly I see you as some kid playing some game where they try to show how great they are, but in reality, just someone with an inflated ego.:rofl

You pathetic troll, just expose whoever you are disliking my posts. 

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Kira    1,219
7 hours ago, OnieFaltoo said:

I didn't think you were judging from the manners you displayed towards a jaspindjy's declaration that he is proud to be a jat!! It is your fault not to deny your birth caste and run away from it.  As far as I know, all sikhs, whether they originate from India or elsewhere, have a birth caste in which they are born and i have not this day ever heard that they don't have a caste. Therefore, when you declare that you don't have a caste you are not only lying and deceiving yourself but also everyone else on this forum.

 

My birth Caste is Khalsa, I am Casteless just as my father Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji ordained. If that's too hard for your brain to comprehend then please don't call yourself a Sikh. I;m not deceiving anyone, If you're smart then follow Gurbani, Guru Gobind Singh Ji made it clear, is he a liar?

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Calling his parents' a disgrace' proves immensely that you lack the basic good manners in terms of how to address other people's parents. I am amazed the persons never addressed your parents in a similar fashion. I hope, you understandI no true sikh ever speaks this way about anyone's parents or their elders? This is a lesson taught in sikhi, not to disrespect your elders. I guess you haven't read  Guru Ram Das Ji's teachings regarding this matter?

Gurbani also calls people who insult the Guru and Brahmgyanis as being the worst of the worst. His parents are a disgrace if by claiming to be amritdhari but being afraid and binding to the Caste System.

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Sure, you 'rather sit around with the so called "Shudra" than anyone else' because you know that no one else will go near you with your rude manners!! Perhaps, this is where you learnt to call other people's parents 'a digrace' and Bhai Gurdas ji a 'liar and a fool' !! You need to brush up on your manners and show some respect to people who are older than you. You are not a sikh so stop bullshitting about it and flattering yourself. You are not fit to be a Sikh because you are in denial of His Bhaana and Hukam.

Where have I called him a liar? I swear all of you lot defending your caste system have the reading comprehensive skills of a small fetus. I asked him if he thought Bhai Gurdas Ji was a liar, I certainly don't. What an absoloutely stupid argument, his Bhanna also includes Maya, are you going to embrace her too? become her little toy? His Bhaana is what he does, and by his will I was born as a Sikh not as backwards Caste minded fool.

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If there were no such thing as 'caste' in sikhism, then explain why do we all different gurdwaras all over the world? Jats have their gurdwaras, Ramgriyas have theirs, Ravidassias have their own and the Kabir Panthies have their own? Sikhs do have castes and if they feel proud of their caste there is nothing wrong with it as  long as they don't discriminate people of other castes. I have been asked many times about my caste and I have also heard that sikhs will never marry anyone out of their caste if they can help it!!!  Stop fooling others with your nonesense. If you want to deny your birth caste then go ahead and deny it but don't criticize and blamed others for accepting their caste and feeling proud of it!!

Same argument again and again. Honestly you are dense. Why are you following Humans? Follow Gurbani, which made everything clear. If So called Sikhs went around murdering people would you do it?

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No, this question is not easily answered. Only an arrogant fool full of himself will admit that it is. This is not evan a question because we don't question our Beloved Gurus ever let alone answer for them!! <banned word filter activated> bloody arrogant fool like yourself who thinks he is higher than the Gurus would admit to having the ability to answer Guru Sahibaans' questions regarding their decisions.  What an ignorant <banned word filter activated>!

I've read Gurbani and I've read the History. Everything was made Crystal Clear in Batichar Natek, why is that hard for you to understand, its hardly my fault you can't read Gurbani and refuse to look it up.

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The style of yor answers proves that you are not a sikh because of the following points:

You think you can answer questions relating to the Guru Sahibaans.

You call Bhai Gurdas ji and the Guru Sahibaans 'liars' and 'fools'.

You interpet the Gurbani to fit in with your goal of deceiving others in your attempt to prove your point.

You speak of the major mahan figures of the sikh panth in the same way you would speak of some one of your level unhallowed and low.

lol. Died at that. Look up my history here. I'm an adherent follower of the words of Mahapurkhs, I consider them Waheguru Saroop and I hardly am worth the dust at their feet. I asked him if he thought they were liars, not that I did. I certainly don't.  If you have a problem with the Gurbani then please analyse it and tell me how I'm twisting it, the Gurbani is crystal clear. Anyone who's done a bit of Sanithya and has knowledge of the scriptures can comprehend it, I certainly can and I'm a fool. 

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Are you saying that you actually were there to see all marriage proposals arriving in Guru Sahibaan household for you to make such generalisations? So you were actually present to witness who and when they picked to be the Avtar? You are so fucked up with caste that you cannot help but slip it in the bold paragraph above before you mention the Bachitar Natak??

Read Batichar Natek then, everyone single Divine being that incarnated into the world came into a certain family for a reason. That's a fact,. There's a reason why Guru Nanak Dev Ji came into the Bedis, there's a reason why the Guru Ghaddi stayed in one family.  The Mehals were all extremely high and divine beings, Their destiny was to marry Guru Sahib and nothing was stopping it. 

Going lower down the spectrum there's a reason why Vishnu incarnated into the house of Vasudeva and there's a reason why  his previous siblings were killed ALONG with the reason behind the prophecy of Kansa.

Marriage proposals pouring into Guru Sahib's house is a historical fact you cretin. If that ruffles your feathers then go and cry to Historians and Historical Granths about it, they were the ones who said it, not me. You may as well cry to Kavi Santokh Singh Ji about it. 

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You were not there so get lost and don't lie to us with your huge genelisations!  No one is expecting you to know everything, so, you don't have to impress us with your lies and deceptions. No one was there to see how the Guru Sahibaans decided upon who to marry and you should be the last shite to speak or answer for them! Bloody hell!

This is why I love people like you. You're so easy to rile up with facts. Their destiny was to marry the Guru Sahibs, nothing was going to stop that. Just as the 5 Pyare were destined to rise and offer their heads.

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Yes, the Guru did say 'ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ ਮੇਰੀ ..........' But he also said to live and accept His Bhaana and Hukam.  It is no good to live one's life in denial. You must stop making stories up about everything you say. 

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Yes and his hukam is Khalsa and Sikhs have no caste and their caste is that of Khalsa. So I'd rather choose to listen to Akaal roop than you. He condemned those following the Caste System to hell. 

The most hilarious thing is I'm willing to bet you have no idea where the Caste System comes from, and how it's been changed from a flexible ever changing occupational structure to a rigid tribal one. 

 

I'm more than happy to go over the Gurbani with you, because at the end of the day that's what matters. If you feel im manipulating the Gurbani then please show me where.

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