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Why Sikhs cant be exonerated for rise of Ram Rahims in and around Punjab


singhbj singh
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Guest Jacfsing2
13 minutes ago, Balkaar said:

We shouldn't try to ration the blame here. Every one of us is guilty, all the fake Sikhs for continuing to breath life into the monstrosities of caste and sexism, and the rest of us 'real' Sikhs for doing nothing at all to stop them. We can only move forward as a people if we all acknowledge our personal complicity in the vandalism of our nation. 

I think we have bigger issues than somebody remembering their ancestors were farmers or warriors or Hindu preachers, if you ask me. If you are expecting a world where nobody knows what their ancestors did or why they have certain genetics, I don't see that in a long time; however, if you are talking about ending prejudice for those who have different ancestors then I agree. Also what are you talking about sexism for? If you are planning on women being Punj Pyare, I wholeheartedly say NO, regardless of what some SJWs say.

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Guest Jacfsing2
2 minutes ago, jaspindjy said:

Our caste is our identity so we stick with our caste we born in, no harm done. Everyone should be proud of their caste no harm done.

Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that he was our father and Mata Sahib Kaur was the mother.

"In Putran ke sis par // diye sut chaar

Chaar mooye to kia hua jeevat kayee hazar"

which means that Guru Sahib gave his 4 biological sons, so thousands of his kids through Khalsa could survive. There is no reason to be proud of caste or ancestors.

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Just now, jaspindjy said:

We should and must treat all castes equal that's what I say. Be proud of everyone in the Panth as well as our respected ancestors.

That's not what Guru Sahib did and that's not what we should do. Asking someone their caste is akin of saying Amrit is nothing more than water. Bhai Gurdas Ji made it clear in his varan that Guru Nanak Dev Ji merged all the castes into 1 caste. So no. Showing pride in your caste is nothing more than haumai.

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17 minutes ago, jaspindjy said:

I will never ask anyone about which is their caste, never. What I am trying to say is that we should treat everyone equal and not be judgemental about others caste. .

What castes? they don't exist in Sikhism. Once someone takes Amrit they have no caste, nor do any Sikhs have any castes. The people who drag castes into Sikhi are no sikhs.

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 For example, when we meet people for the first time, we should treat them nicely just like how we treat everyone else and not start treating anyone differently once we find what caste they are. The bad thing about castes is we can immediately guess from their surnames. When everyone uses 'singh or kaur' instead of surnames then no one will know anyones caste. This is how I think and I have a lots of respect for everyone when I meet them.

You have your answer there then. Guru Sahib abolished the Caste System, stop trying to bring it back in any shape or form. Sikhs have no castes, end of story. The Lord gave the surnames Kaur and Singh especially to destroy the idiots who have pride in their castes. 

Like I said Bhai Gurdas Ji made it clear that Guru Nanak Dev Ji merged them all into one, there aren't any castes in Sikhism, if you want castes then turn to Hinduism. Anyone seeing castes or showing pride in it in spitting in the face of Guru Sahib's own creed. If you believe in the Amrit Sanchar then castes don't exist.

This same nonsensical argument that you're trying can be applied to any tenant of Sikhism to justify heresy. 

If Bhai Gurdas Ji wrote that Guru Sahib abolished it then who are we to question him. Guru Nanak Dev Ji called it useless (bland), why cling to it when its useless. You may as well cling to a spoon in a war zone rather than a gun.

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Unfortunately his cheli support will get him out/ not in prison at all. And if a Sikh Brahmgyaani (same support/ spiritual level as Sant Maskeen or Gyaani Takur Singh) was to be falsely accused n arrested???? NO AMOUNT of support, legal action n money will get a person out as he/ she a Sikh n teaches people about Sikhi.

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11 hours ago, jaspindjy said:

Look I am not talking about what others do with their castes. I am talking about myself and what I do with mine. I am proud of my caste because I don't hurt or harm anyone with who I am. Everyone is my friend no matter which caste they are, if they are hindus or sikhs. I don't care. As long as I don't hurt anyone's feelings and respect each person for who they are I don't see anything wrong in others or my caste. Only demented people cause harm not me. I have friends from all castes. If they can be proud of thier caste so can I. I have never done no harm to no one, I never chose to be born in my caste, Maharaj did.

So you narrow the whole issue of caste to your personal viewpoint whilst being almost wilfully ignorant of the stank it causes in our wider community. 

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Guest Jacfsing2
2 hours ago, Balkaar said:

What bigger issues are there in the qaum than caste Singhji?

Deras? - They exist almost entirely because of 'upper caste' prejudice against Mazbhis which cuts them off from the Guru Ghars, from the Guru, and therefore from Sikhi. 

Hindutva? - The easiest way for us to slip back into the Hindu fold like the RSS and BJP want is by embracing caste. Caste is the foundation stone of Hindu civilization. 

Drugs? - What kind of gaaneh do you think the wannabe gangsters selling, consuming and glorifying drugs in the Punjab listen to? Bhangra songs, which are an outgrowth of Jatt culture, hence the endless references to Jatt Jatt Jatt and how strong and brave they supposedly are. 

Demographics? - the reason the Sikh qaum is so powerless is because it lacks the numbers to have any real political clout, if Jatt supremacists had not obstructed the entry of Dr Ambedkar into Sikhi then Sikhs would be much more powerful today. 

Virtually every problem faced by our people today can be linked to caste. There is no bigger issue. It is the stone tied around the neck of Sikhism which prevents us from achieving our true potential as a people. 

In any case, the problem isn't people remembering where they came from, the problem is what people are doing with those remembrances.I am indeed talking about ending prejudice, not being blind to history.  It would be ok if someone acknowledged that they were descended from farmers and left it at that, but in 90% of cases that isn't what happens. The farmer's descendant is convinced that his arbitrary descent from a farmer makes him superior to his neighbour, who was descended from a carpenter. And the carpenter has his own ideas.

I mention sexism because in the context of Punjabi society, caste and sexism are tied. The reason sons are generally preferred over daughters after all is because they serve to perpetuate the family name, which is basically the caste/got name. If this obsession with caste legacy disappeared, then most grounds for viewing female offspring as inferior to males would also, I believe, disappear. Maybe then the shocking gender imbalance in Punjab due to female infanticide would be remedied. 

From what I see most Sikhs are from what the Hindu caste system considered low-castes, practically speaking only a small percentage of the Sikhs are descendents from Brahmins and Ksychatrias. But for all the Deras and Hinduvta groups, you will not find a single head that happens to be a Dalit leading a major dera. I think the bigger problem with our people is that since the Singh Sabha movement, we have failed to diversify the Panth like it's pre-Sikh Empire days, when converts came from other regions of the Subcontinent as well. Rather us being seen as a Punjabi faith is more damaging for our progress than the caste movement, which would die out with more Non-Punjabi followers of Sikhi.

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Apart from the politics of money and patronage of bolly celebs and politicians of ram rahim.

We must ask ourselves what kinda parchar he was giving that drew large crowds? No doubt he is a outlandish charismatic clownish figure and an entertaining one at that to the poorer Indians. The public there these days love that, he was successfully able to tap into that market and gain a large following through Tv show appearances, movies and "rock concerts".

If we look at our parchariks of today what message of hope do they give? Are they charasmatic? Are they entertaining? The audience of today is not the same even a decade ago. Peoples attention span is decreasing with the increasing use of smart phones and social media people want new things and entertaining things to watch. They do not have the capacity and patience to listen to some random boring baba/sant giving lectures of the past that they could easily watch on youtube or doesnt make them feel good.

There needs to be a wholesale analysis of what has gone on for so many problems to be occurring. And it starts as always at the top ... the SGPC...... if Sikhs dont reform or remove this entity we will see Sikhi confined as a minority faith within punjab itself or even dying out and christian or muslim or new age dehra missionaries will tear Indian punjab apart in coming few years by their own personal conflict's with each other.

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