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The Path to a Sikh Renaissance

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jkvlondon    3,419
1 minute ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

Your interpretation is dogmatic not the bani

I think you are failing to understand that Sikhi is a set of tenets  that have been  laid down as the truth and thus a 'dogma' maybe you believe that my acceptance of that truth is dogmatic ...frankly I really do not see that as a problem because everything i have been shown in life has proven the truth is there .

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Sukhvirk1976    189
52 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

I think you are failing to understand that Sikhi is a set of tenets  that have been  laid down as the truth and thus a 'dogma' maybe you believe that my acceptance of that truth is dogmatic ...frankly I really do not see that as a problem because everything i have been shown in life has proven the truth is there .

How can a meta physical, universal truth be reduced to man made dogma 

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jkvlondon    3,419
23 minutes ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

How can a meta physical, universal truth be reduced to man made dogma 

I think you are  confused about the definition THE Absolute truth that is sikhi would be considered logically satisfying the requirements of the definition of dogma , it is you who is declaring it equivalent to something man-made.

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Sukhvirk1976    189
4 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

I think you are  confused about the definition THE Absolute truth that is sikhi would be considered logically satisfying the requirements of the definition of dogma , it is you who is declaring it equivalent to something man-made.

You see dogma as a set of rules... Freedom is unbound 

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jkvlondon    3,419
Just now, Sukhvirk1976 said:

You see dogma as a set of rules... Freedom is unbound 

true freedom is found by containing the distractions, avoiding or overcoming  the obstacles from the target ...there is an active adhering to the right actions ...it is not chaos of unbounded anarchy but following a tried and true path if it was achievable without karam you wouldn't need to be born/follow any faith

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Sukhvirk1976    189
21 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

true freedom is found by containing the distractions, avoiding or overcoming  the obstacles from the target ...there is an active adhering to the right actions ...it is not chaos of unbounded anarchy but following a tried and true path if it was achievable without karam you wouldn't need to be born/follow any faith

And therein lies the rub! 

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Sukhvirk1976    189
15 minutes ago, TejS said:

Brother, I fail to understand the freedom you talk about. Let me take an example of yours, you said that Khalsa Aid was the kind of parchaar that we needed. I researched into them, and I agreed. I agreed because they put "seva" into practice, and not just preached about it. They became examples of Sikhi in practice. However, the concept of seva is a defined principle in Sikhi:

ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਹਕਾਮੀ ॥ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਹੋਤ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ

So, in a way, Khalsa Aid is essentially adhering to the dogma of Sikhi established by the Gurus, and thus Khalsa Aid is dogmatic as well. So when you say total freedom unbridled by dogma, what do you really mean? Please, can youelaborate more, because I have failed to understand what freedom you are talking about.

To express dogma as characteristic of freedom is quite simply a oxymoron. 

Sewa is a principal at the core of which is breaking down ego. 

A practioner of dogma is the very opposite. They believe in certainty, unquestionably, but sikhi teaches us to always challenge and grow. The pursuit of truth is a on going khoj however if one says I have the answers and this is the truth you must agree then one has lost the ability to learn. 

If bani was about dogmatism I can't think why a poetic, musical form was chosen to express easy answers.. Abrahamic religions are dogmatic because they say 'God said...' bani has nothing comparable by design in my belief.. 

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TejS    226

I think this thread has gone off-topic. 

To wrap up the previous argument on my part, I'll say this, I believe that Sikhi is a rule of principles that need to be followed, and therefore it is dogmatic. Now if any of you would like to argue this further, you or I can either make a separate thread for this. 

I'm hoping that members on this forum can further criticize and contribute to my list. And then eventually, we can collectively come up with a way to put this list into motion and not just talk. I would like many of the things on this list to happen soon, and I would definitely like to be a part of it. So, any suggestions, ideas, criticisms are welcomed.

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Sukhvirk1976    189
19 minutes ago, TejS said:

I think this thread has been derailed. 

To wrap up the previous argument on my part, I'll say this, I believe that Sikhi is a rule of principles that need to be followed, and therefore it is dogmatic. Now if any of you would like to argue this further, you or I can either make a separate thread for this. 

I'm hoping that members on this forum can further criticize and contribute to my list. And then eventually, we can collectively come up with a way to put this list into motion and not just talk. I would like many of the things on this list to happen soon, and I would definitely like to be a part of it. So, any suggestions, ideas, criticisms are welcomed.

I'm being a pedant.. For me  Dogma = universal truth.

For me  a group of principles can never be dogmatic. I also fundamentally believe that the message of Guru Nanak Dev Ji is one of not falling into dogmatism.. Abrahamic religions inadvertently promote dogmatism as they believe in the scriptures as the literal word of God.. Sikhi fundamentally does not have that position, and guru sahibs put safety measures in place to prevent sikhs from becoming dogmatic.. First and foremost of which is bani is poetic and set to music. 

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TejS    226
3 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

I'm being a pedant.. For me  Dogma = universal truth.

For me  a group of principles can never be dogmatic. I also fundamentally believe that the message of Guru Nanak Dev Ji is one of not falling into dogmatism.. Abrahamic religions inadvertently promote dogmatism as they believe in the scriptures as the literal word of God.. Sikhi fundamentally does not have that position, and guru sahibs put safety measures in place to prevent sikhs from becoming dogmatic.. First and foremost of which is bani is poetic and set to music. 

Can you please explain what you mean by safety measures that the Gurus have put in place to prevent dogma? Because bani being poetic and musical does not prevent dogma. In fact, in Islam, an Abrahamic relgion, the koran is written in poetic verse. In Christianity, also an Abraham religion, gospels are sung to music. So your argument doesn't exactly hold true here.

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Sukhvirk1976    189
17 minutes ago, TejS said:

Can you please explain what you mean by safety measures that the Gurus have put in place to prevent dogma? Because bani being poetic and musical does not prevent dogma. In fact, in Islam, an Abrahamic relgion, the koran is written in poetic verse. In Christianity, also an Abraham religion, gospels are sung to music. So your argument doesn't exactly hold true here.

Paji in my humble opinion I believe there is a fundamental difference.. Whilst the Koran may adopt poetic form and the gospels may be sung there is absolutely no comparison... Gurbani is by the very design of Guru sahib different.. And to mention just a few they include :

1. Instructions that Each verse (set to a specific raag) and can only be understood when sung 

2. That however much one desires absolutism one can never even with all the words in the world ever be definitive.. How can we capture the infinite?

3. Pakke ragi who have spent their entire lives studying gurmat sangeet through kirtan teaches us something new each and every time we listen and recite it 

4. We only need to look at the the very  openning    1ਓ    it amalgamates a numeral and a letter which actually is much more than a letter or word 

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