Jump to content
TejS

The Path to a Sikh Renaissance

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

Your interpretation is dogmatic not the bani

I think you are failing to understand that Sikhi is a set of tenets  that have been  laid down as the truth and thus a 'dogma' maybe you believe that my acceptance of that truth is dogmatic ...frankly I really do not see that as a problem because everything i have been shown in life has proven the truth is there .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

I think you are failing to understand that Sikhi is a set of tenets  that have been  laid down as the truth and thus a 'dogma' maybe you believe that my acceptance of that truth is dogmatic ...frankly I really do not see that as a problem because everything i have been shown in life has proven the truth is there .

How can a meta physical, universal truth be reduced to man made dogma 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

How can a meta physical, universal truth be reduced to man made dogma 

I think you are  confused about the definition THE Absolute truth that is sikhi would be considered logically satisfying the requirements of the definition of dogma , it is you who is declaring it equivalent to something man-made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

I think you are  confused about the definition THE Absolute truth that is sikhi would be considered logically satisfying the requirements of the definition of dogma , it is you who is declaring it equivalent to something man-made.

You see dogma as a set of rules... Freedom is unbound 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sukhvirk1976 said:

You see dogma as a set of rules... Freedom is unbound 

true freedom is found by containing the distractions, avoiding or overcoming  the obstacles from the target ...there is an active adhering to the right actions ...it is not chaos of unbounded anarchy but following a tried and true path if it was achievable without karam you wouldn't need to be born/follow any faith

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

true freedom is found by containing the distractions, avoiding or overcoming  the obstacles from the target ...there is an active adhering to the right actions ...it is not chaos of unbounded anarchy but following a tried and true path if it was achievable without karam you wouldn't need to be born/follow any faith

And therein lies the rub! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, TejS said:

Brother, I fail to understand the freedom you talk about. Let me take an example of yours, you said that Khalsa Aid was the kind of parchaar that we needed. I researched into them, and I agreed. I agreed because they put "seva" into practice, and not just preached about it. They became examples of Sikhi in practice. However, the concept of seva is a defined principle in Sikhi:

ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਹਕਾਮੀ ॥ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਹੋਤ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ

So, in a way, Khalsa Aid is essentially adhering to the dogma of Sikhi established by the Gurus, and thus Khalsa Aid is dogmatic as well. So when you say total freedom unbridled by dogma, what do you really mean? Please, can youelaborate more, because I have failed to understand what freedom you are talking about.

To express dogma as characteristic of freedom is quite simply a oxymoron. 

Sewa is a principal at the core of which is breaking down ego. 

A practioner of dogma is the very opposite. They believe in certainty, unquestionably, but sikhi teaches us to always challenge and grow. The pursuit of truth is a on going khoj however if one says I have the answers and this is the truth you must agree then one has lost the ability to learn. 

If bani was about dogmatism I can't think why a poetic, musical form was chosen to express easy answers.. Abrahamic religions are dogmatic because they say 'God said...' bani has nothing comparable by design in my belief.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this thread has gone off-topic. 

To wrap up the previous argument on my part, I'll say this, I believe that Sikhi is a rule of principles that need to be followed, and therefore it is dogmatic. Now if any of you would like to argue this further, you or I can either make a separate thread for this. 

I'm hoping that members on this forum can further criticize and contribute to my list. And then eventually, we can collectively come up with a way to put this list into motion and not just talk. I would like many of the things on this list to happen soon, and I would definitely like to be a part of it. So, any suggestions, ideas, criticisms are welcomed.

Edited by TejS
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, TejS said:

I think this thread has been derailed. 

To wrap up the previous argument on my part, I'll say this, I believe that Sikhi is a rule of principles that need to be followed, and therefore it is dogmatic. Now if any of you would like to argue this further, you or I can either make a separate thread for this. 

I'm hoping that members on this forum can further criticize and contribute to my list. And then eventually, we can collectively come up with a way to put this list into motion and not just talk. I would like many of the things on this list to happen soon, and I would definitely like to be a part of it. So, any suggestions, ideas, criticisms are welcomed.

I'm being a pedant.. For me  Dogma = universal truth.

For me  a group of principles can never be dogmatic. I also fundamentally believe that the message of Guru Nanak Dev Ji is one of not falling into dogmatism.. Abrahamic religions inadvertently promote dogmatism as they believe in the scriptures as the literal word of God.. Sikhi fundamentally does not have that position, and guru sahibs put safety measures in place to prevent sikhs from becoming dogmatic.. First and foremost of which is bani is poetic and set to music. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

I'm being a pedant.. For me  Dogma = universal truth.

For me  a group of principles can never be dogmatic. I also fundamentally believe that the message of Guru Nanak Dev Ji is one of not falling into dogmatism.. Abrahamic religions inadvertently promote dogmatism as they believe in the scriptures as the literal word of God.. Sikhi fundamentally does not have that position, and guru sahibs put safety measures in place to prevent sikhs from becoming dogmatic.. First and foremost of which is bani is poetic and set to music. 

Can you please explain what you mean by safety measures that the Gurus have put in place to prevent dogma? Because bani being poetic and musical does not prevent dogma. In fact, in Islam, an Abrahamic relgion, the koran is written in poetic verse. In Christianity, also an Abraham religion, gospels are sung to music. So your argument doesn't exactly hold true here.

Edited by TejS
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, TejS said:

Can you please explain what you mean by safety measures that the Gurus have put in place to prevent dogma? Because bani being poetic and musical does not prevent dogma. In fact, in Islam, an Abrahamic relgion, the koran is written in poetic verse. In Christianity, also an Abraham religion, gospels are sung to music. So your argument doesn't exactly hold true here.

Paji in my humble opinion I believe there is a fundamental difference.. Whilst the Koran may adopt poetic form and the gospels may be sung there is absolutely no comparison... Gurbani is by the very design of Guru sahib different.. And to mention just a few they include :

1. Instructions that Each verse (set to a specific raag) and can only be understood when sung 

2. That however much one desires absolutism one can never even with all the words in the world ever be definitive.. How can we capture the infinite?

3. Pakke ragi who have spent their entire lives studying gurmat sangeet through kirtan teaches us something new each and every time we listen and recite it 

4. We only need to look at the the very  openning    1ਓ    it amalgamates a numeral and a letter which actually is much more than a letter or word 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Bhai Jaita's 'Gur Katha,' Sainapati's 'Gur Sobha,' the works of Bhai Band Lal, 'Gurbilas' all refute Caste and its Vedic roots. Prior to Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji, Gyani Bhagwan Singh, Akali Giana Singh, Phula Singh, Baba Sahib Singh Bedi all administered Amrit to mazhbis from same bata. Tragic to see you implying that the tenth master was a Casteist when himself burnt Bhai Alam Shah's Janeu. The Nihangs of today, with a few exceptions, are all nangs. This saakhi is prior to 1700s. Chibber calls himself a child when this transpired. He chronologically contradicts himself on these points.
    • What is the Punjabi equivalent word for Shaheed(martyr) ? I think word shaheed is used for someone who sacrifices his life in the way of Allah.
    • Interesting to say the least, cause this sakhi is pretty similar to sikhs of that time. In reality up until sant gurbachan singh ji’s time mazhabhis werent allowed to take amrit in the same bata amd this is still happenening in nihang dals as well.  So what do we make of the 1699 amrit samchar? If this sakhi happened in the 1700s etc then that means that what happened in 1699 was different and we interpreted it differently.
    • What about Gurbani? I never said we should change Gurbani, because we can’t. But we can remove Perso-Arabic influences from our vernacular.  And when did I say that we should all begin to speak Hindi and Sanskrit, no that’s a terrible idea. We need to revise Punjabi, and you can call me whatever you like, but I firmly stand by that. Have you forgotten that the very tyrants that killed our Gurus, the Sahibzaades, slaughtered our men, our women, and children, sold our ancestors as slaves, pillaged our land for centuries imposed Perso-Arabic influences onto our language. If we have any ounce of self respect, we should purge those influences from our language.  How am I demoting Punjabi? How am I saying we should stray away from Gurmukhi? In fact if you read any of my other threads you will realize I advocate further development of Gurmukhi and Punjabi. Why are you accusing me of things that I am opposed against in the first place?
    • The Saroop is only similar externally, ideologically there is a world of difference: https://tisarpanthdotcom.wordpress.com/2017/04/01/panj/
×