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TejS

The Path to a Sikh Renaissance

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Sukhvirk1976    189
On 27/08/2017 at 5:10 PM, TejS said:

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

Firstly, using the world evangelism for what I stated is clearly wrong. I'm not saying send people to war-torn Syria and capitalize on their situation by handing them the GGS and telling them to accept Sikhi, or go door-to-door telling people to convert because Guru Nanak was the son of God. What I'm saying is that most people that currently identify as Sikhs, or those as Sikh-Hindu, don't follow what's written in the GGS due to ignorance and lack of knowledge, that's why you have people doing Sikh prayer and then taking part in Brahmanical practices such as discrimination of certain castes. I'm saying that a capable parcharik who is well versed and who understands the basics of GGS be sent to villages/cities to clear misconceptions, not coax non-Sikhs into Sikhism. I'm thinking more in line with religious educator rather than evangelist. 

Secondly, I think Jugraj Singh was an exceptional parcharik who cleared out many doubts regarding Sikhi not only for myself but many others. He was far better than your average parcharik who teaches Sikhi laced with Hindu superstitions. 

I feel what your saying brother!  before continuing with my response, I would just like to say I think that the spirit and nature  of your reply is exactly  in keeping with the type conducive, open,  honest and constructive conversations we should be having on this forum. Instead of belittling people, trashing them we should be able to provide considered rational responses. 

 my characterisation of 'evangelism' was used in the wider sense.. If we as a community in whatever manner say we know better than others then that is evangelism.. It is a behaviour born of ahankar. 

Secondly, by saying that we need more parchaariks like jugraj Singh who you in your words is good because of xyz.. It means you have a predisposition to what he is saying revealing ones own political position. 

Traditionally parchaariks of a high calibre would be able to speak and communicate bani in a sophisticated manner where they don't measure or criticise broad groups they as the Guru's did would challenge behaviour or institutional structures and not write off a whole group of people.. 

All love brother,

 humbly 

SSA

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Sukhvirk1976    189
14 hours ago, TejS said:

Likewise, your responses to my posts have encouraged great conversation, and have even challenged me in the sense that I've had to organize my wandering thoughts about Sikhi, and deliberately debate over my own beliefs in order to clearly respond to you. 

Now, in response to your claim that sending out parchariks to educate others would be a sign of hankar, I disagree with this. I think it would be egotistical of us to assume that we know better than others, but in this instance, we aren't assuming that, we are instead seeing the result of lack of Sikh knowledge, in the form of deras and Sikh youth being absorbed by drugs. To assume that I am very knowledgeable, and that you are not so much, would be egotistical of me. To see that you are struggling with something, of which I can offer assistance, is not egotistical, but being helpful and productive. Having pride in one's knowledge gained is hankar, using that knowledge to help others, is teaching. A parcharik is simply one that educates and clears doubts, like a teacher. And so if teaching the illiterate or unlearned is considered hankar, then how would any learning be ever achieved. And if the ones that are confused regarding Sikhi, assume that they know what's right, then is that not hankar either. By teaching from the GGS, the parchariks will simply be expelling doubts that the general population has regarding Sikhi, and it doesn't even have to be on the assumption that others are confused, but simply a routinely recital of the GGS and its colloquial meaning to serve as a reminder to Waheguru. 

Coming to your second point, I can agree that Jugraj Singh was not a parcharik that would be able to cater to all demographics, but do we really need a parcharik that can? If a certain parcharik caters to all demographics, will he/she not be spreading themselves out too thin, and how will they cater to the nuances of each demographic. Because interest is extremely important to hook the general population to parchariks, and if the interests of a certain group of people are not being catered to, then no connect will form between them and the parcharik. And lastly, I think it would be egotistical of any parcharik or person to think that they can emulate the knowledge, and caliber of the Gurus, and thus I don't think we'll be seeing such a parcharik as the one you described, ever.

All love to you as well my brother, and let me know what you think.

Thank you for your considered response.. 

I totally agree with you that we need parchaar to help people understand bani and sikhi.. However it is the way you do parchaar that is important.. Traditionally parchaariks wouldn't be dogmatic.. For me the best parchaar out there at the moment is khalsa aid or Nanak naam.. Khalsa aid through their behaviour express the very essence of sikhi.. Nanak naam provide a breakdown of bani without offering a singular homogeneous dogmatic answer.. Rather they as in keeping with Sikh traditions they highlight the message, the composite parts, linguistic poetic providing a number of starting points for the listeners personal 'khoj' 

Parchaariks shouldn't target demographics, else they would be only preaching to the converted.. Or rather playing on a demographics proclivities.. Sikhi is a universal message, and hence when proper parchaar is done it's none exclusive equally challenging to the new and the old... If we have parchaariks who claim to definitely interpret bani it means they themselves believe they have learned everything.. Something even our Gurus never did.. 

There is a fine line between parchaar and evangelism and BOS in my humble opinion veer towards the latter.. Part of a wider political movement...which in my own opinion is further illustrated by the wider political programme of Sikh press association, the new political party, and the umbrella group everything 13.. I just think we could be sleep walking into a cultural environment that whilst has the best intentions will ultimately undermine the very principles of sikhi 

 

One love brother 

SSA 

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Kira    1,219

Only way a Sikh Renaissance has any chance of flourishing is if people bother to start prachar of all the Granths. Katha of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is good and amazing but lets not ignore our Dasam Pita's other 2 treasures in the mix. 

Firstly we need to start helping people learn Gurmukhi, we have too many pseudo-scholars that barely touch the texts but love to preach, if you haven't even begun the journey there's no point in speaking about it.  Secondly we need to get all the so called Prachariks in check, many of them are simply spreading misinformation (either because they learnt from the wrong source or for more malicious reason, no one can be sure). Thirdly we need proper representatives, Most if not all of the SGPC haven't left Punjab and probably aren't even educated properly, That itself isn't a bad thing but the true Education is also where they lack, which is far above. None of them have even begun to even look at Gurbani, their knowledge is knee deep and shallow. 

We also need to change the Panthic Maryada, like stat. the SRM is a mess right now, it's disgusting it lets Sikhs get by with 3 banis of the 5 a day and has torn up Chaupai Sahib and Rehrass. We need proper Scholars who have knowledge of history and the Rehitnamas that are available to rectify it. The Maryada of Damdami Taksal and Buddha Dal should also be looked at and a resolution should be found within the Jathas so they can work on a Panthic stage too.

The Jathedhars of the 5 Takhats should be Pooran Singhs in full bana and Amritdhari, While having knowledge of all of the texts they should also be versed in Politics and science. They need better control over the Sikh populous in foreign lands. For example during the gay rights marriage act in Canada, the Jathadhar of Akaal Takhat forbid the sikhs from voting in favor for it but they did it anyways. Disregarding what any one view is on that topic, the fact that Sikhs openly defied the court of Sikhi and then were more or less fine is a disgrace. 

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TejS    223
5 hours ago, Kira said:

Only way a Sikh Renaissance has any chance of flourishing is if people bother to start prachar of all the Granths. Katha of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is good and amazing but lets not ignore our Dasam Pita's other 2 treasures in the mix. 

Firstly we need to start helping people learn Gurmukhi, we have too many pseudo-scholars that barely touch the texts but love to preach, if you haven't even begun the journey there's no point in speaking about it.  Secondly we need to get all the so called Prachariks in check, many of them are simply spreading misinformation (either because they learnt from the wrong source or for more malicious reason, no one can be sure). Thirdly we need proper representatives, Most if not all of the SGPC haven't left Punjab and probably aren't even educated properly, That itself isn't a bad thing but the true Education is also where they lack, which is far above. None of them have even begun to even look at Gurbani, their knowledge is knee deep and shallow. 

We also need to change the Panthic Maryada, like stat. the SRM is a mess right now, it's disgusting it lets Sikhs get by with 3 banis of the 5 a day and has torn up Chaupai Sahib and Rehrass. We need proper Scholars who have knowledge of history and the Rehitnamas that are available to rectify it. The Maryada of Damdami Taksal and Buddha Dal should also be looked at and a resolution should be found within the Jathas so they can work on a Panthic stage too.

The Jathedhars of the 5 Takhats should be Pooran Singhs in full bana and Amritdhari, While having knowledge of all of the texts they should also be versed in Politics and science. They need better control over the Sikh populous in foreign lands. For example during the gay rights marriage act in Canada, the Jathadhar of Akaal Takhat forbid the sikhs from voting in favor for it but they did it anyways. Disregarding what any one view is on that topic, the fact that Sikhs openly defied the court of Sikhi and then were more or less fine is a disgrace. 

I agree with absolutely everything you have said (even regarding the Dasam Granth, albeit it does have some controversial mentionings, it also shows the inferiority of Hindu practices, and is also extremely uplifting, perhaps something our astray Sikh youth could use).

I'd like to add these points to the list on page 1 if you will allow.

Edited by TejS
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Kira    1,219
10 minutes ago, TejS said:

I agree with absolutely everything you have said (even regarding the Dasam Granth, albeit it does have some controversial mentionings, it also shows the inferiority of Hindu practices, and is also extremely uplifting, perhaps something our astray Sikh youth could use).

I'd like to add these points to the list on page 1 if you will allow.

go for it bro. But what sort of meanings do you find controversial in Dasam Granth?

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TejS    223
6 hours ago, Kira said:

go for it bro. But what sort of meanings do you find controversial in Dasam Granth?

Well there are things like saying women aren't to be trusted, consumption of intoxicants and then performing fornication under their influence - things like these which are clearly not the words of our tenth Guru. 

Edited by TejS
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Jacfsing2    1,845
23 minutes ago, TejS said:

Well there are things like saying women aren't to be trusted, consumption of intoxicants and then performing fornication under their influence - things like these which are clearly not the words of our tenth Guru. 

Do you have direct references? Or which bani you are referring to? Also if you are referring to Chritropankhyan, that talks about much deeper stuff then women.

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Kira    1,219
21 minutes ago, TejS said:

Well there are things like saying women aren't to be trusted, consumption of intoxicants and then performing fornication under their influence - things like these which are clearly not the words of our tenth Guru. 

Not true at all man. Dasam Bani shows how woman can be morally upright and amazing warriors in Chandi Charitar, If you're referring to Sri Charitropakhyan its a referral to human psychology.  The worst of all humanity is exposed in there, the worst of the worst woman can't  be trusted but the same is said of their men. The Charitar contain stories about men, woman and even Devtas showing the flaws in their character. 

Guru Sahib never said Sikhs should do it, the bani was written from the point of view of a King and his minister, the King is named Chitar Singh. Guru Sahib himself distanced himself from it in that respect. 

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TejS    223
1 hour ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Do you have direct references? Or which bani you are referring to? Also if you are referring to Chritropankhyan, that talks about much deeper stuff then women.

 

Listen I'm not a Dasam Granth opponent. In fact, I think certain parts should be read and applied and it should be seen in Gurudwaras, but the sexually explicit nature of some of the tales, albeit describing the downfall lead by kaam, are far too explicit for something a Guru would write, and with the Dasam Granth being lost after the Battle of Kup, it certainly raises valid suspicion that perhaps some of the writings aren't of Guru Gobind Singh's.

And yes I was talking about Sri Charitropakhyan. 

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Jacfsing2    1,845
8 minutes ago, TejS said:

Listen I'm not a Dasam Granth opponent. In fact, I think certain parts should be read and applied, but the sexuallly explicit nature of some of the tales, albeit describing the downfall lead by kaam, is far too explicit for something a Guru would write, and with the Dasam Granth being lost after the Battle of Kup, it certainly raises valid suspicion that perhaps some of the writings aren't of Guru Gobind Singh's.

And yes I was talking about Sri Charitropakhyan. 

Look, I can tell that you aren't exactly Anti-Dasam Granth from your other posts. Charitopakhyan has as much to do with women as Kharag Singh, (Hindu named Singh in Dasam Granth), has to do with Sikh people.

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Jacfsing2    1,845
50 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Do you have direct references? Or which bani you are referring to? Also if you are referring to Chritropankhyan, that talks about much deeper stuff then women.

 

25 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Look, I can tell that you aren't exactly Anti-Dasam Granth from your other posts. Charitopakhyan has as much to do with women as Kharag Singh, (Hindu named Singh in Dasam Granth), has to do with Sikh people.

To whoever is confused, tell me what you are confused about, so I can attempt to help you.

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