The Path to a Sikh Renaissance

[Sukhvirk1976]

21 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

true freedom is found by containing the distractions, avoiding or overcoming  the obstacles from the target ...there is an active adhering to the right actions ...it is not chaos of unbounded anarchy but following a tried and true path if it was achievable without karam you wouldn't need to be born/follow any faith

And therein lies the rub! 

[TejS]

On 9/6/2017 at 6:54 PM, Sukhvirk1976 said:

And therein lies the rub! 

Brother, I fail to understand the freedom you talk about. Let me take an example of yours, you said that Khalsa Aid was the kind of parchaar that we needed. I researched into them, and I agreed. I agreed because they put "seva" into practice, and not just preached about it. They became examples of Sikhi in practice. However, the concept of seva is a defined principle in Sikhi:

ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਹਕਾਮੀ ॥ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਹੋਤ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ

So, in a way, Khalsa Aid is essentially adhering to the dogma of Sikhi established by the Gurus, and thus Khalsa Aid is dogmatic as well. So when you say total freedom unbridled by dogma, what do you really mean? Please, can youelaborate more, because I have failed to understand what freedom you are talking about.

[Sukhvirk1976]

15 minutes ago, TejS said:

Brother, I fail to understand the freedom you talk about. Let me take an example of yours, you said that Khalsa Aid was the kind of parchaar that we needed. I researched into them, and I agreed. I agreed because they put "seva" into practice, and not just preached about it. They became examples of Sikhi in practice. However, the concept of seva is a defined principle in Sikhi:

ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਹਕਾਮੀ ॥ ਤਿਸ ਕਉ ਹੋਤ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ

So, in a way, Khalsa Aid is essentially adhering to the dogma of Sikhi established by the Gurus, and thus Khalsa Aid is dogmatic as well. So when you say total freedom unbridled by dogma, what do you really mean? Please, can youelaborate more, because I have failed to understand what freedom you are talking about.

To express dogma as characteristic of freedom is quite simply a oxymoron. 

Sewa is a principal at the core of which is breaking down ego. 

A practioner of dogma is the very opposite. They believe in certainty, unquestionably, but sikhi teaches us to always challenge and grow. The pursuit of truth is a on going khoj however if one says I have the answers and this is the truth you must agree then one has lost the ability to learn. 

If bani was about dogmatism I can't think why a poetic, musical form was chosen to express easy answers.. Abrahamic religions are dogmatic because they say 'God said...' bani has nothing comparable by design in my belief.. 

[TejS]

On 9/10/2017 at 0:19 AM, Sukhvirk1976 said:

To express dogma as characteristic of freedom is quite simply a oxymoron. 

Sewa is a principal at the core of which is breaking down ego. 

A practioner of dogma is the very opposite. They believe in certainty, unquestionably, but sikhi teaches us to always challenge and grow. The pursuit of truth is a on going khoj however if one says I have the answers and this is the truth you must agree then one has lost the ability to learn. 

If bani was about dogmatism I can't think why a poetic, musical form was chosen to express easy answers.. Abrahamic religions are dogmatic because they say 'God said...' bani has nothing comparable by design in my belief.. 

1.  I never said that dogma gives way to freedom, instead I believe dogma and more importantly religion require restraint.
2. Seva is also every Sikh's duty, therefore a principle and dogma of Sikhi.
3. But the Guru's have told us the answers, the truths in a way. They have enabled us to do certain things, and restricted other things through their bani. So I fail to see how is Sikhi not dogmatic. Casteism, idolatry and such are things that have been accepted as false in our religion, and we do not accept as truths. Bani states there is a creator, Waheguru and therefore it is an accepted truth in Sikhi. We as human beings can challenge the existence of a creator, but as Sikhs we cannot, because it has already been accepted by our religion. Also, how does accepting certain truths inhibit us from learning further, learning is not only gaining new knowledge of whether something is a truth or not, but also applying that knowledge in our day-to-day lives. 
4. I would say that Sikhi is perhaps the closest to the Abrahamic religions out of the Dharmic religion group, as we have a fixed set of principles that are incontrovertible truths, just like Abrahamic religions.  

[TejS]

I think this thread has gone off-topic. 

To wrap up the previous argument on my part, I'll say this, I believe that Sikhi is a rule of principles that need to be followed, and therefore it is dogmatic. Now if any of you would like to argue this further, you or I can either make a separate thread for this. 

I'm hoping that members on this forum can further criticize and contribute to my list. And then eventually, we can collectively come up with a way to put this list into motion and not just talk. I would like many of the things on this list to happen soon, and I would definitely like to be a part of it. So, any suggestions, ideas, criticisms are welcomed.

[Sukhvirk1976]

19 minutes ago, TejS said:

I think this thread has been derailed. 

To wrap up the previous argument on my part, I'll say this, I believe that Sikhi is a rule of principles that need to be followed, and therefore it is dogmatic. Now if any of you would like to argue this further, you or I can either make a separate thread for this. 

I'm hoping that members on this forum can further criticize and contribute to my list. And then eventually, we can collectively come up with a way to put this list into motion and not just talk. I would like many of the things on this list to happen soon, and I would definitely like to be a part of it. So, any suggestions, ideas, criticisms are welcomed.

I'm being a pedant.. For me  Dogma = universal truth.

For me  a group of principles can never be dogmatic. I also fundamentally believe that the message of Guru Nanak Dev Ji is one of not falling into dogmatism.. Abrahamic religions inadvertently promote dogmatism as they believe in the scriptures as the literal word of God.. Sikhi fundamentally does not have that position, and guru sahibs put safety measures in place to prevent sikhs from becoming dogmatic.. First and foremost of which is bani is poetic and set to music. 

[TejS]

3 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

I'm being a pedant.. For me  Dogma = universal truth.

For me  a group of principles can never be dogmatic. I also fundamentally believe that the message of Guru Nanak Dev Ji is one of not falling into dogmatism.. Abrahamic religions inadvertently promote dogmatism as they believe in the scriptures as the literal word of God.. Sikhi fundamentally does not have that position, and guru sahibs put safety measures in place to prevent sikhs from becoming dogmatic.. First and foremost of which is bani is poetic and set to music. 

Can you please explain what you mean by safety measures that the Gurus have put in place to prevent dogma? Because bani being poetic and musical does not prevent dogma. In fact, in Islam, an Abrahamic relgion, the koran is written in poetic verse. In Christianity, also an Abraham religion, gospels are sung to music. So your argument doesn't exactly hold true here.

[Sukhvirk1976]

17 minutes ago, TejS said:

Can you please explain what you mean by safety measures that the Gurus have put in place to prevent dogma? Because bani being poetic and musical does not prevent dogma. In fact, in Islam, an Abrahamic relgion, the koran is written in poetic verse. In Christianity, also an Abraham religion, gospels are sung to music. So your argument doesn't exactly hold true here.

Paji in my humble opinion I believe there is a fundamental difference.. Whilst the Koran may adopt poetic form and the gospels may be sung there is absolutely no comparison... Gurbani is by the very design of Guru sahib different.. And to mention just a few they include :

1. Instructions that Each verse (set to a specific raag) and can only be understood when sung 

2. That however much one desires absolutism one can never even with all the words in the world ever be definitive.. How can we capture the infinite?

3. Pakke ragi who have spent their entire lives studying gurmat sangeet through kirtan teaches us something new each and every time we listen and recite it 

4. We only need to look at the the very  openning    1ਓ    it amalgamates a numeral and a letter which actually is much more than a letter or word