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What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma achieved with Badal?

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On 08/09/2017 at 5:39 PM, SoulSingh said:

Ok let's consider for a moment he is a great guy, and that he's playing badal as well; during badals rule, when sections of darbar sahib were stolen, no sorry under "repairs", why did the antarjami 🍊 let it happen?  Also why did your baba side with a drug dealer, I don't see one instance in history where guru sahib sided with an oppressive regime to achieve "meaningful achievements"

 

What was stolen in Darbar Sahib?

Baba Harnam Singh is not Guru Sahib, and no-one compares him with Guru Sahib. The comparison I made was between Baba Harnam Sngh and the Dal Panth when they accepted a jagir and nawabgi from the Moghal rulers. It was done with a purpose in mind to acheive a goal that otherwise would not have been possible.

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6 hours ago, chatanga said:

Lets bring another french word. Laissezfare . You would prefer this?

 

You come across as viewing the ejection and rejection of the sarna group - read darshan rogi, dhunda and co from Dlehi gurdwara management and parchar as  not being anything important, whereas I see it as vitally important for the Panth. How could this have been acheived unless the backing of badal dal was there?

Laissez-faire* refers to the attitude of letting others do as they choose;  it's probably not the word you're looking for. Perhaps using French may not best serve your purpose. 

You actually believed me to be angry (as noted below). I can't view these events as being unimportant and, at the same time, be angry that it did happen. I'd be seriously confused and contradictory if that were the case. 

On 8/21/2017 at 2:55 PM, chatanga said:

This issue of having Dasam bani parchar in Dlehi gurdwaras seems like a very minor issue to you.I suspect with the blase way you write it you are quite angry at the re-emergence of Dasam bani parchar in Delhi gurdwaras. Thats up to you. 

 

6 hours ago, chatanga said:

Fair enough but someone who is ill would want to have their symtoms treated first. This is the short-term goal. Then the eradication of the illness would follow. I'm sure that any person who feels ill will feel this.

The root problem was festering and remained unaddressed for about 10 years unless Baba Harnam Singh addressed it. Yes thats right, he addressed it. Many people (inc myself) were whinging about what sarna was doing in delhi gurdwaras but could do nothing about it.

What caused it to fester in the first place? If that illness has not been addressed in the past, what plan is there to address it going into the future? I haven't come across any evidence of such planning. 

In any of the concerns I raised about how the symptom was addressed, do you see no faults? There is disagreement on the Sikh Calendar and Dasam Bani/Philosophy that has morphed into animosity and hatred between Sikhs. By unilaterally making decisions, as Sarna did or Dhumma/Sant Samaj/Badal have done now, does it not expand that divide in the Panth rather than closing it? 

Would the following strategy not have been better?

  • If there was disagreement on which calendar to use, then that should have been resolved through a Panthic gathering to discuss, debate, and build consensus. With a Panthic consensus the decision being made would be happily taken by all
  • The same goes for Dasam Bani - have a gathering where all the dubious points that detractors make on Dasam Bani can be cleared. Have that discussion and build consensus. That brings people of different thoughts together. The response can't be to shout or hit back. Just restarting parchar is not enough to eliminate the problem. The response has to clear doubts and bring people toward consensus.

 

6 hours ago, chatanga said:

If it doesnt bring any unity in the Panth, it will serve equally not to let the panth fracture further. Did Harnam Singh do this to achieve unity in the Panth? I dont think so. Did he do it to end the missionary nonsense in dlehi gurdwaras? yes. So there's the answer.

Sant Jarnail Singh couldn't achieve unity in the panth, so it's really unfair that you would place this lofty goal on Harnam Singh's head.

The people who were already against Dasam Bani or the Bikrami Calendar have not come closer to those ideas but are further alienated and entrenched in their views. They have animosity toward the other side and vice versa. The strategy employed did not help in bridging this divide. 

Before anyone ever makes a decision on behalf of or in service to, the Panth, they should be doing a mental checklist of standards those decisions should meet. One of which should be: does this act bring the Panth closer toward unity or further away from unity? That consideration should be an integral part of the decision making process.  

The Sant Samaj's goal is panthic unity. The evidence is in Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale's explanation in my last post. As President of the Sant Samaj, it is also Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's goal. 

 

6 hours ago, chatanga said:

Your posts are too long to read. I havent been reading them, just taking the opening the paragraph.  

Is having discussion and discourse on different ideas, viewpoints, and issues not something you are pursuing by being on this message board?

I've written responses to your and others' points. By voicing your points and not attempting to consider mine, it begs the question: are you even interested in sincere, genuine, honest discussion? 

I attempted to provide thoughtful and researched responses that may provide some usefulness to yourself and others. Am I failing? 

 

6 hours ago, chatanga said:

 

What was stolen in Darbar Sahib?

Baba Harnam Singh is not Guru Sahib, and no-one compares him with Guru Sahib. The comparison I made was between Baba Harnam Sngh and the Dal Panth when they accepted a jagir and nawabgi from the Moghal rulers. It was done with a purpose in mind to acheive a goal that otherwise would not have been possible.

I responded to your assertions regarding the Jagir and Nawabi in one of my previous posts which you might have ignored. Instead of the discussion progressing further its back to ground zero. 

Edited by Singhballer

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20 hours ago, Singhballer said:

Laissez-faire* refers to the attitude of letting others do as they choose;  it's probably not the word you're looking for. Perhaps using French may not best serve your purpose. 

 

Its also a attitude of not getting involved. It is exactly the word I wanted. Letting others do what they want without bothering about any consequences. You seem more bothered by the fact that Harnam Singh has done something about sarna and co, and also re-started parchar of Dasam Bani in dlehi gurdwaras. Not once have you appreciated this by Baba Harnam Singh. Instead you try and present it as a minor issue.

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44 minutes ago, chatanga said:

 

Its also a attitude of not getting involved. It is exactly the word I wanted. Letting others do what they want without bothering about any consequences. 

I don't know how much business you've studied but Laissez-faire is an economic term and philosophy specifically referring to the belief that the less involved government/management is in economy and society at large, the better it is for the economy/society. The underlying belief being that self-regulation will guide people to the best possible actions. Being laissez-faire is caring about the consequences; one believes that not getting involved will result in the best possible outcome. 

It's really not the word you want. 

 

44 minutes ago, chatanga said:

You seem more bothered by the fact that Harnam Singh has done something about sarna and co, and also re-started parchar of Dasam Bani in dlehi gurdwaras. Not once have you appreciated this by Baba Harnam Singh. Instead you try and present it as a minor issue.

Nope, that doesn't bother me. You seem to be forming an opinion about my views without even reading my views. Instead of resorting to conjecture and speculation, just ask.

I did show appreciation (you may have overlooked it past my first paragraphs), but as the paltry victories they were. They are miniscule in comparison to the immense, dire, and severe issues of the Panth.

  1. The decline of Sikhi in Punjab
    1. Due to things like: Proliferation of drugs, lack of parchaar and spiritual sustenance, government suppression of Sikh movements, corruption of Sikh institutions
  2. Lack of justice and healing from 1984 and following genocide
    1. Tens of thousands Sikhs killed, tortured, detained, made political prisoners, and continued mass impunity for perpetrators 
  3. Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions 
  4. Disunity and polarization of Sikh thought and people 

It's really impossible to sufficiently critique my views (which I welcome and encourage) without reading and analyzing them. Let's end this merry chase here! 

 

Edited by Singhballer

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Thanks for putting up a concise post. Long paragraphs/esssays  are not really my thing on forums.

 

9 hours ago, Singhballer said:

I don't know how much business you've studied but Laissez-faire is an economic term and philosophy specifically referring to the belief that the less involved government/management is in economy and society at large, the better it is for the economy/society. The underlying belief being that self-regulation will guide people to the best possible actions. Being laissez-faire is caring about the consequences; one believes that not getting involved will result in the best possible outcome. 

It's really not the word you want.

 

It is can be applied to economics. It is an approach style. Do you get involved or not? do you have a laissez-faire approach to it?

 

As I've said many times, you seem to have this attitude towards the 2nd biggest body of Gurdwaras and Management in the Panth. It doesnt bother you what sarna and co have done for the last decade or so in Delhi gurdwaras.

 

9 hours ago, Singhballer said:

 

Nope, that doesn't bother me. You seem to be forming an opinion about my views without even reading my views. Instead of resorting to conjecture and speculation, just ask.

 

Why ask when I can read your words? It's not so much what you write but what you don't write.

 

9 hours ago, Singhballer said:

 

I did show appreciation (you may have overlooked it past my first paragraphs), but as the paltry victories they were. They are miniscule in comparison to the immense, dire, and severe issues of the Panth.

  1. The decline of Sikhi in Punjab
    1. Due to things like: Proliferation of drugs, lack of parchaar and spiritual sustenance, government suppression of Sikh movements, corruption of Sikh institutions
  2. Lack of justice and healing from 1984 and following genocide
    1. Tens of thousands Sikhs killed, tortured, detained, made political prisoners, and continued mass impunity for perpetrators 
  3. Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions 
  4. Disunity and polarization of Sikh thought and people 

It's really impossible to sufficiently critique my views (which I welcome and encourage) without reading and analyzing them. Let's end this merry chase here! 

 

 

Baba Harnam Singh cannot (IMO) do those things by himself or even with the Taksal. Those are objectives which can only be carried out with the greater majority of the Sikhs backing it. But the majority of Sikhs back badal and co.

 

Sant jarnail Singh couldnt put an end to point no 3, why do you think someone like Harnam Singh who is nowhere near the level of Sant Jarnail Singh in terms of leadership and charisma, could achieve those? Both at some time in their live had/have a close working relationship with Akali Dal. 

 

Now coming to point no 4, who is polarizing Sikh thought? its the missionaries. They are tearing down each and every thing in Sikhi. look at what steps darshan rogi has taken, and this guy used to speak at delhi gurdwaras a lot. So you can't throw this mud at harnam Singh, as he has done his very best to combat this. He and the taksal are doing their utmost to keep Sikh trhought from polarizing.

 

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On 9/10/2017 at 11:02 AM, chatanga said:

 

Years went on? How many years was there, and what happened to make Baba Harnam Singh more favourable?

He turned out to be a better candidate than Rhode or Mohkam Singh. I won't say exactly why because I can't say anything with a concrete basis to provide for my statements but any old-Taksal defector from the 90s and Early 2000s would know. 

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On 13/09/2017 at 9:52 PM, akaltaksal said:

He turned out to be a better candidate than Rhode or Mohkam Singh. I won't say exactly why because I can't say anything with a concrete basis to provide for my statements but any old-Taksal defector from the 90s and Early 2000s would know. 

 

So basically it's all rumours? You want to spread and perpetuate rumours on a Sikh forum?

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On 9/15/2017 at 1:16 AM, chatanga said:

 

So basically it's all rumours? You want to spread and perpetuate rumours on a Sikh forum?

No, they're not rumours. I just don't have the evidence at hand to provide for any statement I'd give. Doesn't mean I didn't verify or analyze what I found.

 

If anything, I'm sure many of those whistle blowers from the Panjab police that are coming out now gave details in regards to Dhumma. 

 

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On this thread, I was trying to shed light on the view that current discourse/activity by Sikhs is being dominated by issues that are of the surface level and less vital to the long-term health of the nation. The deep rooted issues that is festering like termites in the trunk of the tree is not being addressed. Our energies are going into the wrong directions and our leaders of all sorts and stripes have failed us in corralling our energies toward the most pressing problems of our nation.

I recently was listening to this and the speaker points out exactly what we've gotten lost in and what we should have been working on instead. Just a quick listen from 8:15 if you're short for time.

 

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I'm trying to research how these governing bodies in Sikhi are formed but I'm getting confused. 

Would someone give me a synopsis?

Thank you all. 

  • Confused 1

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On 02/02/2018 at 12:02 AM, GurjantGnostic said:

I'm trying to research how these governing bodies in Sikhi are formed but I'm getting confused. 

Would someone give me a synopsis?

Thank you all. 

This is my very basic understanding. It all started when the british ruled India. Thw gurudwaras were ruled by mahants, priests with hereditary positions as the landowners and income earners from the gurudwara properties. They were an immoral lot. So the sikh people protested to have them ousted. The british decided to support the mahants and it was a long struggle. Today we celebrate those accomplishments as Nanksar da morcha, Jaito da morcha and Guru ka baag morcha.These morchas(protests literally battlegrounds dont know how to translate) had the most high body count. The sikhs suceeded in getting rid of the mahants.and then they had to think of how to create a different governing body for the gurudwaras. They created SGPC Shrimoni Parbandak Committee. It was supposed to be democratic, elected by votes. And there was the Jathedaar, the highest position in sikh religion. He can issue edicts that apply to the whole sikh panth. Like the pope except he has no divinity. This was during british times so early 1900s. But some sikhs dont support committees and voting as it can lead the majority immoral ppl to win which we dont want in religious affairs. They would prefer to go back to the sarbat khalsa system and the panj pyara system of olden times (1700s when sikhs were rebellious and lived in jungals and constant conflict with the mughal government. They ruled themselves as such) 

But then india gained independence and became a democracy. However it refused to give Sikhs any rights in Panjab. Sikhs fought for state rights, like the right to teach their language panjabi, the right to the water in their rivers. The akali dal was an organization  at the forefront of this state rights resistance. They won some victories. And were seen as heroes. So for state elections, sikhs always used to vote akali dal vs the national party congress.

And so there are 2 organizations in panjab. Sgpc controls the gurudware and they have a huge revenue from donations at the gurudware.  And then there is akali dal, a political state party. It will never rise to national levels because it caters to sikhs and panjab. Which is only 1 state out of 40 or 20 states in india, i forget.

 But over time akali dal aligned more with the central and national government than their constituents the sikhs and panjab. This split widened in 1984. When the CM zail singh. I think he was like the state minister of panjab and maybe the head of akali dal as well. He supported the attack on harminder sahib to oust or kill sant jarnail singh bhindranwale. He was killed for his role in 1984 by sikhs, i think. But ever since then there has been mistrust of akali dal. Which is sad cuz  the sikh party and it betrayed sikhs. Badal was also a politician during the 1984 times and was involved in suppression of khalistaan movement. 

Anyways there are 2 elections in panjab i think. 1 to vote ppl for SGPC, only sikhs vote cuz it governs sikh gurudwares and is the sikh religious organization. 2 to vote for state ministers (ministers are like senates. India follows the british parliamentary system). The political party with the most seats in parliament decides the prime minister(President) of the country.

  • Thanks 1

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1 minute ago, GurjantGnostic said:

That would have taken a lot of digging to figure out. Thank you very much. 

not really we grew up with this history. It relates to 1984 so ofc a lot of young sikhs are into it.

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