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Prokharkoo84    87

Like i said i am neither pro or anti dhumma, but he aint the only one laying claim to the Taksaal. What have the others achieved... i.e. Ram Singh? Ajnala? UK Dharam Yudh Jatha?

Out of those I know Ajnala has been there for the beadbi cases and against pakhandi babeh etc, Ram Singh I dont know much about and UK Dharam Yudh Jatha apart from making videos and cussing others, I havent seen anything proactive be done in either the UK or ground level Punjab.

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chatanga    1,068
On 14/08/2017 at 3:44 PM, Singhballer said:

Bring in Sarna or Badal, their ineptitude toward the betterment of the Panth is the same. 

 

The difference is that Sarna would support the missioanry agenda and Badal would give Harnam Singh full liberty to pursue the Sikh agenda.

This issue of having Dasam bani parchar in Dlehi gurdwaras seems like a very minor issue to you.I suspect with the blase way you write it you are quite angry at the re-emergence of Dasam bani parchar in Delhi gurdwaras. Thats up to you. For me Harnam Singh has achieved something here that I and most Sikhs I know would never have thought would happen. darshan rogi and his missionary bum-chums had been in control for years and casued so much mischief. Thats not an issue to you. I'm glad that Baba Harnam Singh has done something about it.

 

On 14/08/2017 at 3:44 PM, Singhballer said:

Those Sikhs who took Nawabis from the Mughals established their autonomous control and helped to grow the Panth and its interests.

 

Exactly. Baba Harnam Singh and the taksal have been given autonomy to preach proper gurmat throughout Delhi Gurdwaras. This will help the Panth grow and its interests will be defended. You want to take pahul from 3 banis ? go ahead.

 

But I would also read Sikh history a little more as well if I were you. the Sikhs who took the Nawabgi and jagir had it rescinded after 4 years when the Moghals decided they were strong enough to start facing the Sikhs in battle. Then the Sikhs were left without a jagir and a defunct title.

 

Does that mean they were foolish to accept the Moghals offer and got used in the process?

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chatanga    1,068
On 14/08/2017 at 1:19 PM, chatanga said:

Why would badal give Ram Singh recognition as head of the taksal if he had planted Harnam Singh as the head?

@Only five No answer?

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Akalifauj    784
On 14/08/2017 at 5:19 AM, chatanga said:

 

Why would badal give Ram Singh recognition as head of the taksal if he had planted Harnam Singh as the head?

Why would Badal make Dhumma sit on the ground and ask for Badal's attention like a good dog?  

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chatanga    1,068

So you have no answer to your lie then. Better not to tell a lie in the first place.

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Singhballer    74
On 8/21/2017 at 2:55 PM, chatanga said:

This issue of having Dasam bani parchar in Dlehi gurdwaras seems like a very minor issue to you.I suspect with the blase way you write it you are quite angry at the re-emergence of Dasam bani parchar in Delhi gurdwaras. Thats up to you.

Thats not an issue to you.

Blase means to be indifferent or unconcerned. However, you perceive my writing on Dasam Bani being reintroduced to be both nonchalant (why don't we bring in another French word) but also emotional and angry at the same time. That kind of makes for an oxymoron; contradictory terms. 

When attempting to have any genuine and fruitful discussion I have experienced it is helpful to not speculate or make conjecture about the viewpoints of another. If curious or in doubt, just ask; ask with the innocent interest of a child. Other genuine level-headed people will gladly oblige. Fools like myself may otherwise find injury in your guesswork.

 

On 8/21/2017 at 2:55 PM, chatanga said:

The difference is that Sarna would support the missioanry agenda and Badal would give Harnam Singh full liberty to pursue the Sikh agenda.

This issue of having Dasam bani parchar in Dlehi gurdwaras seems like a very minor issue to you.I suspect with the blase way you write it you are quite angry at the re-emergence of Dasam bani parchar in Delhi gurdwaras. Thats up to you. For me Harnam Singh has achieved something here that I and most Sikhs I know would never have thought would happen. darshan rogi and his missionary bum-chums had been in control for years and casued so much mischief. Thats not an issue to you. I'm glad that Baba Harnam Singh has done something about it.

Bringing in Samparda Kathavachaks fixes the symptom not the illness. The root problem that will fester and multiply is unaddressed. Is this a strategy for the long term that will bring unity and togetherness in the Panth? No. I have posted an excerpt of my last post on this topic below for your convenience, often my arguments become TL;DR.

 

On 8/14/2017 at 10:44 AM, Singhballer said:

Getting the Nanakshahi calendar removed and installing panthic leaning Kathavachaks in Delhi and Amritsar:

  • Getting Panthic kathavachaks back into Delhi and Amritsar is Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's and others' response to the preaching of left-leaning kathavachacks is fine and dandy, but how does it bring unity? If they were shouting, now we're just shouting back. While presenting your own ideas and interpretations in a sound and ration way without enmity is fine, and I encourage it, Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj has failed to address the actual problem and close the gaping opinionated divide. Again, its the strongman move, we have clout in political circles so let's use it to push our agenda without being principled and trying to foster cooperation and consolidation in the Panth.This shows Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's lack of strategic acumen, he is unable to properly diagnose the problem and come up with a strategy to tackle it while bringing Sikhs together. 
  • Whether its our calendar, maryada, or history/philosophy, no one can unilaterally decide what it correct and what isn't. The Guru gave us the Guru Granth-Guru Panth system, which is a tradition long dead and not up for re-installment by the political overlords. Until such time that the entire Panth can assemble Sarbat Khalsa, create a plan to debate and discuss these issues, and come to a conclusion and consensus, these issues will only fester and grow worse. Shouting back and forth at each other will not unite the Panth on these issues, no matter how true and correct one side might be in the debate. 
    • If Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma was truly a visionary, he would see that trying to work within Badal's political setup is futile. You're getting cents on the dollar. Peanuts. The revolutionary change to ideas centuries old is what is needed. Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma knows of our history ten times better than any of us yet fails to see that the only time multiple factions of the Panth were truly largely united was when the Sarbat Khalsa system was in place and operating. 
    • Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale have said in Katha before that these politicians don't have the Panth's betterment in mind. They say one thing, do another thing. He recounted the many times he approached the former President of the SGPC, Gurcharan Singh Tohra, to resolve the maryada issue and have one Panthic maryada implemented. Tohra would always say they'd take it into consideration and will do something to get the discussions started but never did over all those years of Baba Hari Singh asking. Why not? Unity of the Panth does not align with the values and interests of the political class and they have proven that over the past four decades. Again, it shows lack of clarity in thought and critical thinking on Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to not be able to see his plan of action is ultimately folly. 

 

On 8/21/2017 at 2:55 PM, chatanga said:

You want to take pahul from 3 banis ? go ahead.

 

Again, conjecture and scorn for a person you genuinely want to have dialogue with may not be useful. Some may misinterpret your heartfelt intentions.

 

On 8/21/2017 at 2:55 PM, chatanga said:

Exactly. Baba Harnam Singh and the taksal have been given autonomy to preach proper gurmat throughout Delhi Gurdwaras. This will help the Panth grow and its interests will be defended. You want to take pahul from 3 banis ? go ahead.

But I would also read Sikh history a little more as well if I were you. the Sikhs who took the Nawabgi and jagir had it rescinded after 4 years when the Moghals decided they were strong enough to start facing the Sikhs in battle. Then the Sikhs were left without a jagir and a defunct title.

Does that mean they were foolish to accept the Moghals offer and got used in the process?

If I'm not mistaken, it was rescinded after just two years! 

Here is the difference:

  • When the Sikhs took the jagir from the Mughals, they took it after deliberation, discussion, and the approval of the Sarbat Khalsa
    • Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has built no such discussion and consensus building into his strategy, not even with the Sant Samaj. Heaps of them condemn his political choices. 
    • Getting the discourse changed to Gurmat is good. But the underlying problems remain unaddressed; problems that do the most to hold the Panth back as outlined in my above post. 
  • The jagir allowed the Sikhs to consolidate different jathas under the leadership of Kapur Singh into the Dal Khalsa. Factions were brought together. 
  • They used the political calm to develop their autonomous power and establish their sovereignty
  • This was political power and control that they were able to grow for the Panth. The jagir was taken away very quickly, but look at what they accomplished in that time. The Khalsa was brought together in unity to fight for our future prosperity. 
  • I highly doubt the SIkhs who had been hunted down by Zakariya Khan suddenly became enthralled by his friendship. They took the jagir in a collective, panthic decision and likely knew they could be double-crossed. But they mustered their forces and were in a stronger position for when it did happen. 
    • In all the major issues of the Panth that I have outlined in my previous posts, Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has made little headway in ameliorating them. 
    • No political autonomy is established for the Panth. The Indian government regulated the SGPC, the SGPC in turn is run by Badal and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal). There is no autonomy or control of the Panth in its own affairs, we are led by the string where the political elite wish to go. 

As I stated previously:

Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's strategy gives the Panth no autonomy, no control, and he has not pushed forward the Panth's interests in any worthwhile long-lasting way. 

 

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Akalifauj    784
On 22/08/2017 at 10:44 AM, chatanga said:

So you have no answer to your lie then. Better not to tell a lie in the first place.

You are not a bright teen.  You need to debunk what I said about dhumma sitting on the ground like a good dog before badal.  But, you can't because there is a clear picture of dhumma doing it.  So like a good chela you try to deflect on to the other fake jathedar.  You have no credibility here.

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Jonny101    4,074

My personal opinion is that things are not black or white. A lot of Sikhs today are in the grey shades. Baba Dhumma is such a case. No doubt his association with Badal has hurt many people's sentiments. But I think he is doing this strategically. He is probably thinking to achieve his religious agenda while joining the system instead of opposing it and achieving nothing. He is doing like what the Singh Sabha Lahore did or even Bhai Vir Singh Jee's Chief Khalsa Diwan did who decided to befriend the hated British while furthering their religious agenda of Parchar.

 

No one can deny that Baba Dhumma has three things to his credit such as the 1984 memorial, discarding the missionary backed Purewal calendar and parchar of Dasam Bani. All these three things are great sevas that were achieved because of him.

 

The story of 1984 memorial needs to be mentioned here. When he created the memorial, he convinced Badal that it would be like a memorial and nothing else. But the day before it was to be inaugurated, he sent some students from the Taksal to install the plaque mentioning that this memorial is in dedication of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and to install the picture of Sant jee inside the memorial. When Badal found out he sent his SGPC task force Gundas to remove this plaque since a government Chamcha like badal has a severe allergy to Sant BHindranwala jee's name. But Dhuma had his students from Taksal to guard the plaque and memorial all night long and oppose any attempts of Badal's dogs from removing that plaque. I still remember the Indian/Hindu media's utter shock that the plaque and memorial was a dedication to Sant Jarnail SIngh Bhindranwale.

 

I'm not a supporter of Dhumma. I personally like Bhai Amrik Singh Ajnala the most but I think it is not fair to say Dhumma and Baba Ram Singh of Sangrava are government agents. All of them are doing seva in their own say. It would be better if all of them would be able to work together though. Maybe one day.

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SoulSingh    55
On 8/10/2017 at 6:43 PM, Singhballer said:

I read the following passage in another thread. Instead of going off topic on the original thread, I have created this new one.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has achieved many things by siding with Parkash Badal and his Dal. 

What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma accomplished in the affairs of the SGPC, Punjab's Government, or Sikh sovereignty since he's headed Dam Dami Taksal Mehta, headed the Sant Samaj, and nurtured such a warm relationship with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal) at large? 

I see a few things that may be seen as accomplishments by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma

  1. The 1984 memorial complex being created
  2. The removal of the Nanakshahi calendar
  3. Getting approval for Taksal's kathavachaks to do parchar from Manji Sahib
  4. A "Martyr's Gallery" at the 1984 memorial
    1. (http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/chandigarh/apex-body-accepts-damdami-taksals-demand-4708101/)

On a panthic level, can any of the above be termed as any significant achievement or contribution for our nation by a person who heads one of the oldest Sikh schools, an organization of Sants/Vidhvaans, and has relations with influential political leaders? They can not; these are paltry victories in the face of immense issues of our community. 

The biggest issues of the Panth (including but not limited to):

  1. The decline of Sikhi in Punjab
    1. Due to things like: Proliferation of drugs, lack of parchaar and spiritual sustenance, government suppression of Sikh movements
  2. Lack of justice and healing from 1984 and following genocide
    1. Tens of thousands Sikhs killed, tortured, detained, made political prisoners, and continued mass impunity for perpetrators 
  3. Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions 

Focussing on the SGPC, has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done much of anything to elicit worthwhile change in all the shortcomings, mismanagement, corruption, and overall foolishness of the SGPC?

In the video below Jathedar Ranjit Singh outlines many of the ways the Badal family has usurped the Sikhs' sovereign power and misused the Panth's power and wealth for their own benefit. He also talks about many actions of the SGPC that are blatantly corrupt. 

 

The Badals more or less ordered the SGPC to hand over the rights to relaying Gurbani from Harmandir Sahib from ETC Punjabi to PTC Punjabi at no charge. While the SGPC was to receive payment from ETC for the deal, the SGPC has received no compensation from the Badal family for the over 1100 Crore Rupees that PTC Punjabi owes as of 2013! 

 

Time and time again Baldev Singh Sirsa and Jathedar Ranjit Singh expose scams executed by SGPC officials to enrich themselves at the expense of the Sikh nation's funding. 

Property Scam - https://www.sikh24.com/2017/05/12/baldev-singh-sirsa-exposes-property-scam-in-sgpc-during-avtar-makkars-tenure/#.WYzaf_krKHs

Property Scam - http://indianexpress.com/article/india/sgpc-chief-to-probe-land-deal-during-avtar-singh-makkars-tenure4789971/

Recruitment Scam - http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/recruitment-scam-in-sgpcrun-guru-granth-sahib-world-un

Badal seeking favours from Gurdwara Judicial Panel - http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020522/main6.htm

You will notice the SGPC always constituting its own "committees" of its own men to investigate. Does anyone think that will ever lead to a credible investigation where the truth and justice is of utmost importance? Nope. When a judicial panel tells the SGPC to have a private firm do an audit, the SGPC just ignores it. Complete disregard. - http://sikhsangat.org/2009/sikh-gurdwara-judicial-panel-slaps-contempt-notice-on-sgpc/

From the 7:00 mark Jathedar Ranjit Singh goes through the misdeeds of the Badal family and the SGPC.

 

In relation to "2. Lack of Justice and Healing from 1984 and following genocide, What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done with his influence on the Badal family and SGPC in that area?

  • Thousands of Punjab police officers involved in our genocide have roamed with impunity. Badal Dal, while promising over many elections, particularly in the 1990s to punish all the guilty has done the complete opposite. They have sheltered, protected, rewarded, and saluted those same officers, and not just the big boys like Sumedh Saini, Izhar Alam, etc.. Did Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma do anything to use his political influence on the Badals to have impartial investigations, charges, and eventual punish meted down for the guilty?
  • Some may know that the Shiromani Akali Dal used to have a "Shiromani Akali Dal Human Right Wing"; Jaswant Singh Khalra was the General Secretary of it. Why do you think that wing has gone into oblivion? Khalra and others working in that wing investigated and uncovered the crimes of the government. The Badals don't want such crimes to see the light of day and have as such instituted policy not to support human right endeavours in the political party of the Sikhs or the SGPC. Has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done anything to get the SGPC or Akali Dal to mobilise their resources toward hiring investigators, former police officers, former judges, or lawyers to research, investigate, and expose to the world, and begin legal proceedings for all those crimes that were committed against the Sikhs?
  • Jathedar Gurdev Singh Kaunke was tortured and murdered by Jagraon Police. A report was conducted by the Punjab government but was never released. Badal promised to release it if it came into power. He never did. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done to get that report released? Especially since this particul victim was of such high regard from Dam Dami Taksal.

In relation to "3. Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions"

  • The Akal Thakht and SGPC has been controlled by the political overlords, whether it was Tohra or Talwandi exerting their influence, or the Badals in the modern day. The "leaders" of our nation in the form of Thakht Jathedars are chosen by the Badals to be "yes men", support the status-quo, and be wielded for political gain. The SGPC president is chosen in this exact way too. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done to change these political interferences and institute a system by with the nation chooses its leaders? What actions has he taken to ensure leadership at these levels works for the betterment of the community instead of the political betterment of the Badal family? 
  • While everyone makes much fuss over the Indian government destroying and stealing our priceless historical artifacts in 1984, the destruction that the SGPC has either directly or indirectly caused to our heritage is spectacular. Dozens if not hundreds of buildings razed or allowed to crumble. The possessions and artifacts of our Guru's and prominent Sikhs decay and turn to dust; this is living history going to waste forever to be inaccessible to our future generations. 

Finally, while he has been President of the Sant Samaj for a great length of time, the other Vidhvaans of the organization have become disillusioned with his leadership or lack-there-of. Mahapurakhs like Baba Lakhbir Singh Ratwara Sahib, Baba Hari Singh Randhawe wale, Baba Amir Singh Jawaddi Taksal wale, Baba Seva Singh Rampur Khere wale all have left or distanced themselves from the Sant Samaj due to its wayward leadership and direction. - https://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/02/03/93-sant-samaj-leaders-part-ways-baba-harnam-singh-dhumma/

Many of the occurrences and facts I have presented above are not caused or created by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma. However, in being the leader of Dami Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, and having such warm and close relations with the Badal family, the SGPC, and Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), he has achieved very little in rectifying or ameliorating any of those issues in any meaningful way. It is treachery and deception with the Panth for Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to have aligned, supported, and collaborated with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal); and to think, I haven't even mentioned Badal's and the Shiromani Akali Dal's collusion and cooperation in the June 1984 attack and subsequent smothering of the resistance movement. 

Have other leaders in the Panth also joined and supported the Badal family? Yes. But, no dharmic leader has been closer or supported the Badals with more zeal than Baba Harnam Singh Dumma. What triumph has he produced from that support?

Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma may well have done a lot of things over his lifetime, however, the high position and influence he has been given have gone to waste. He does not seem to to have the wit, vision, strategic acumen, or transparency that Sikhs require from a person in such a position. 

--------------------------------------------------------------

If there are any mistakes or criticisms of the above analysis please voice them! 

Ok let's consider for a moment he is a great guy, and that he's playing badal as well; during badals rule, when sections of darbar sahib were stolen, no sorry under "repairs", why did the antarjami 🍊 let it happen?  Also why did your baba side with a drug dealer, I don't see one instance in history where guru sahib sided with an oppressive regime to achieve "meaningful achievements"

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akaltaksal    53
On 8/14/2017 at 5:19 AM, chatanga said:

 

Why would badal give Ram Singh recognition as head of the taksal if he had planted Harnam Singh as the head?

Harnam Dhumma became more favorable in his eyes as the years went on.

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Singhballer    74
On 9/7/2017 at 9:01 AM, Jonny101 said:

No one can deny that Baba Dhumma has three things to his credit such as the 1984 memorial, discarding the missionary backed Purewal calendar and parchar of Dasam Bani. All these three things are great sevas that were achieved because of him.

 

The story of 1984 memorial needs to be mentioned here. When he created the memorial, he convinced Badal that it would be like a memorial and nothing else. But the day before it was to be inaugurated, he sent some students from the Taksal to install the plaque mentioning that this memorial is in dedication of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and to install the picture of Sant jee inside the memorial. When Badal found out he sent his SGPC task force Gundas to remove this plaque since a government Chamcha like badal has a severe allergy to Sant BHindranwala jee's name. But Dhuma had his students from Taksal to guard the plaque and memorial all night long and oppose any attempts of Badal's dogs from removing that plaque. I still remember the Indian/Hindu media's utter shock that the plaque and memorial was a dedication to Sant Jarnail SIngh Bhindranwale.

My original contention below - while these may make for good acts they leave the solution to the Panth's problems unfulfilled.

The memorial is great to have, but we should not think that it will bring the Panth great progress or growth. Memorials should be made, but with them should not come the consideration that it will provide betterment or amelioration. Sure, it's awesome that even though the government didn't want you to make, you made it anyway. But what re-occuring value does it give us? 

It doesn't next to nothing in telling our history and educating those who do not know our struggle. It is no Yad Vasehm (http://www.yadvashem.org/). The Jews have done so much to spread knowledge of their genocide and provide resources to educate the world. It would have been a better use of funds to create a digital library/media platform where our history could be collected, preserved, and displayed for the world to learn from. 

Building of the memorial does not help very much in disseminating our history, uplifting the victims of our genocide from their struggles, or ultimately getting justice for the Panth. It should be built but we should not feel giddy and jolly over its supposed impact. 

As for the calendar and parchar of Dasam Bani:

  • The Nanakshahi calendar was removed without any proper consultation, discussion, debate, or agreement in the Panth. Its lunacy to push the change through without taking into account the opinions of the Panth. Thus, all those who have been convinced of the merits of the Nanakshahi calendar have animosity toward Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj for doing it. Even if the Bikrami calendar is the best choice, or maybe a 3rd alternative calendar being better, but to make the decision unilaterally shows that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has no meaningful desire to build connections, bridges and unity in the Panth. 
  • If there was disagreement on which calendar to use, then that should have been resolved through a Panthic gathering to discuss, debate, and build consensus. With a Panthic consensus the decision being made would be happily taken by all, without it we have the discord and hate that are extremely obvious. 
  • The same goes for Dasam Bani - have a gathering where all the dubious points that detractors make on Dasam Bani can be cleared. Have that discussion and build consensus. That brings people of different thoughts together. People complain about all the hate and lies being spread on Dasam Bani but the response can't be to shout back. Just restarting parchar is not enough to eliminate the problem. The response has to clear doubts and bring people toward consensus.

Whether its our calendar, maryada, or history/philosophy, no one can unilaterally decide what it correct and what isn't. The Guru gave us the Guru Granth-Guru Panth system, which is a tradition long dead and not up for re-installment by the political overlords. Until such time that the entire Panth can assemble Sarbat Khalsa, create a plan to debate and discuss these issues, and come to a conclusion and consensus, these issues will only fester and grow worse. Shouting back and forth at each other will not unite the Panth on these issues, no matter how true and correct one side might be in the debate. 

On 8/10/2017 at 9:43 PM, Singhballer said:

On a panthic level, can any of the above be termed as any significant achievement or contribution for our nation by a person who heads one of the oldest Sikh schools, an organization of Sants/Vidhvaans, and has relations with influential political leaders? They can not; these are paltry victories in the face of immense issues of our community. 

The biggest issues of the Panth (including but not limited to):

  1. The decline of Sikhi in Punjab
    1. Due to things like: Proliferation of drugs, lack of parchaar and spiritual sustenance, government suppression of Sikh movements
  2. Lack of justice and healing from 1984 and following genocide
    1. Tens of thousands Sikhs killed, tortured, detained, made political prisoners, and continued mass impunity for perpetrators 
  3. Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions 

 

On 9/7/2017 at 9:01 AM, Jonny101 said:

My personal opinion is that things are not black or white. A lot of Sikhs today are in the grey shades. Baba Dhumma is such a case. No doubt his association with Badal has hurt many people's sentiments. But I think he is doing this strategically. He is probably thinking to achieve his religious agenda while joining the system instead of opposing it and achieving nothing. He is doing like what the Singh Sabha Lahore did or even Bhai Vir Singh Jee's Chief Khalsa Diwan did who decided to befriend the hated British while furthering their religious agenda of Parchar.

He was doing it strategically; his strategy was foolhardy. 

  • If Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma was truly a visionary, he would see that trying to work within Badal's political setup is futile. You're getting cents on the dollar. Peanuts. Little progression for all your time and effort. The revolutionary change to ideas centuries old is what is needed. Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma knows of our history ten times better than any of us yet fails to see that the only time multiple factions of the Panth were truly largely united was when the Sarbat Khalsa system was in place and operating. 
  • Think of the biggest Panthic problems and issues - none can be solved while working under corrupt politicians like Badal and others. 

Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale and the Sant Samaj have for almost two decades trying to get one Panthic Rehit Maryada implemented to unite all Sikhs but the SGPC leaders and their political overlords have no inclination or urge to do that because it does not serve their interests. Disunity is good for the politicians. All their attempts have been futile.

Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale speak on this below:

The better strategy is to unite all factions of Panth and put control back in the Panth's hands away from the corrupt politicians.

On 9/7/2017 at 9:01 AM, Jonny101 said:

I'm not a supporter of Dhumma. I personally like Bhai Amrik Singh Ajnala the most but I think it is not fair to say Dhumma and Baba Ram Singh of Sangrava are government agents. All of them are doing seva in their own say. It would be better if all of them would be able to work together though. Maybe one day.

I don't believe any of them are agents.

I only believe that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has some character flaws and lack of knowledge/wisdom in certain areas that don't serve him or the Panth in the best possible way.

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akaltaksal    53

The best way to find out about Dhumma is to talk to recent dissidents and defectors of Mehta, Sangrawan wale, or with Ajnale wale. Otherwise, it's just useless drivel.

 

Dhumma doesn't have character "flaws" or makes mistakes that could be forgiven due to him being human, he's a Gunda and Badmaash. He has not an ounce of human morality with him.

Edited by akaltaksal
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chatanga    1,068
On 23/08/2017 at 11:51 PM, Singhballer said:

Blase means to be indifferent or unconcerned. However, you perceive my writing on Dasam Bani being reintroduced to be both nonchalant (why don't we bring in another French word) but also emotional and angry at the same time.

 

Lets bring another french word. Laissezfare . You would prefer this?

 

You come across as viewing the ejection and rejection of the sarna group - read darshan rogi, dhunda and co from Dlehi gurdwara management and parchar as  not being anything important, whereas I see it as vitally important for the Panth. How could this have been acheived unless the backing of badal dal was there?

 

 

On 23/08/2017 at 11:51 PM, Singhballer said:

Bringing in Samparda Kathavachaks fixes the symptom not the illness.

 

Fair enough but someone who is ill would want to have their symtoms treated first. This is the short-term goal. Then the eradication of the illness would follow. I'm sure that any person who feels ill will feel this.

 

On 23/08/2017 at 11:51 PM, Singhballer said:

 The root problem that will fester and multiply is unaddressed.

 

The root problem was festering and remained unaddressed for about 10 years unless Baba Harnam Singh addressed it. Yes thats right, he addressed it. Many people (inc myself) were whinging about what sarna was doing in delhi gurdwaras but could do nothing about it.

 

On 23/08/2017 at 11:51 PM, Singhballer said:

. Is this a strategy for the long term that will bring unity and togetherness in the Panth?

 

If it doesnt bring any unity in the Panth, it will serve equally not to let the panth fracture further. Did Harnam Singh do this to achieve unity in the Panth? I dont think so. Did he do it to end the missionary nonsense in dlehi gurdwaras? yes. So there's the answer.

 

Sant Jarnail Singh couldn't achieve unity in the panth, so it's really unfair that you would place this lofty goal on Harnam Singh's head.

On 23/08/2017 at 11:51 PM, Singhballer said:

 No. I have posted an excerpt of my last post on this topic below for your convenience, often my arguments become TL;DR.

 

Your posts are too long to read. I havent been reading them, just taking the opening the paragraph.  You asked what has Harnam Singh achieved with badal. To some the results are very apparent. To some they aren't.

 

 

 

 

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chatanga    1,068
On 08/09/2017 at 6:15 PM, akaltaksal said:

Harnam Dhumma became more favorable in his eyes as the years went on.

 

Years went on? How many years was there, and what happened to make Baba Harnam Singh more favourable?

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