What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma achieved with Badal?

[chatanga]

On 12/08/2017 at 0:15 AM, InderjitS said:

These sum up the Dhumma or  as I like to call him - Gimli (but only in looks) from LOTR , he has helped bring DD Taksal to it's knees. 

 

 

Fair enough this photo makes him gimli. But thats a small price to pay if some turaiya avastha Sikhs want to call him gimli, for me. This is one of those results. This would not have been possible without "gimli", but i would rather have "gimli" and other taksalis doing katha than dhunda and jachak.

 

 

 

[Akalifauj]

Dhumma was planted as the jathedar of Taksal by Badal.  This is one of the reasons Taksal does not accept him as the jathedar.  Dhumma was planted as jathedar because he would go with Badal orders.  Dhumma is the dog of badal.  Hence he is sitting on the ground with his two front paws gripping badal arm for his masters attention.  

Never has any Taksal jathedar given away his and Khalsa Panth izzat to achieve any sort of goal.  Whenever a Taksal Jathedar's was asked to give away izzat, he always refused.  Only planted Jathedar's like dhumma give away their izzat and Khalsa Panth izzat.  

[chatanga]

15 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Dhumma was planted as the jathedar of Taksal by Badal.

 

Why would badal give Ram Singh recognition as head of the taksal if he had planted Harnam Singh as the head?

[Singhballer]

19 hours ago, chatanga said:

5. Helping get rid of Delhi's Malechh committee of Sarna and co, and restarting katha there including katha of Sri Dasme Granth Sahib.

The above accomplishments are a great acheivement if you were to consider what the situation would be like had this not been done.

Bring in Sarna or Badal, their ineptitude toward the betterment of the Panth is the same. 

Getting a memorial or gallery made is not all that valuable in the face of big problems we're facing. 

Getting the Nanakshahi calendar removed and installing panthic leaning Kathavachaks in Delhi and Amritsar:

• The Nanakshahi calendar was removed without any proper consultation, discussion, debate, or agreement in the Panth. Its lunacy to push the change through without taking into account the opinions of the Panth. Thus, all those who have been convinced of the merits of the Nanakshahi calendar have animosity toward Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj for doing it. Even if the Bikrami calendar is the best choice, or maybe a 3rd alternative calendar being better, but to make the decision unilaterally shows that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has no meaningful desire to build connections, bridges and unity in the Panth. He follows the same classic Indian strongman move of implementing your full whim and will when you have power while not caring for the affects on others. 
• Getting Panthic kathavachaks back into Delhi and Amritsar is Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's and others' response to the preaching of left-leaning kathavachacks is fine and dandy, but how does it bring unity? If they were shouting, now we're just shouting back. While presenting your own ideas and interpretations in a sound and ration way without enmity is fine, and I encourage it, Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj has failed to address the actual problem and close the gaping opinionated divide. Again, its the strongman move, we have clout in political circles so let's use it to push our agenda without being principled and trying to foster cooperation and consolidation in the Panth.This shows Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's lack of strategic acumen, he is unable to properly diagnose the problem and come up with a strategy to tackle it while bringing Sikhs together. 
• Whether its our calendar, maryada, or history/philosophy, no one can unilaterally decide what it correct and what isn't. The Guru gave us the Guru Granth-Guru Panth system, which is a tradition long dead and not up for re-installment by the political overlords. Until such time that the entire Panth can assemble Sarbat Khalsa, create a plan to debate and discuss these issues, and come to a conclusion and consensus, these issues will only fester and grow worse. Shouting back and forth at each other will not unite the Panth on these issues, no matter how true and correct one side might be in the debate. 
  • If Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma was truly a visionary, he would see that trying to work within Badal's political setup is futile. You're getting cents on the dollar. Peanuts. The revolutionary change to ideas centuries old is what is needed. Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma knows of our history ten times better than any of us yet fails to see that the only time multiple factions of the Panth were truly largely united was when the Sarbat Khalsa system was in place and operating. 
  • Baba Hari Singh Randhawe Wale have said in Katha before that these politicians don't have the Panth's betterment in mind. They say one thing, do another thing. He recounted the many times he approached the former President of the SGPC, Gurcharan Singh Tohra, to resolve the maryada issue and have one Panthic maryada implemented. Tohra would always say they'd take it into consideration and will do something to get the discussions started but never did over all those years of Baba Hari Singh asking. Why not? Unity of the Panth does not align with the values and interests of the political class and they have proven that over the past four decades. Again, it shows lack of clarity in thought and critical thinking on Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to not be able to see his plan of action is ultimately folly. 

 

19 hours ago, chatanga said:

All these things were in place when Sant Jarnail Singh and Baba Thakur Singh were alive. While more Sikhs were religious definitely it is wrong to put these regressions at Baba Harnam Singh personal responsibility.

It is unfair to blame Harnam Singh for these. He had a plan to chnage the SGPC but it was foiled. PLus this was always there when Sant jarnail Singh was there, but no-one blamed him for corruption even though at times he was close to Akali Dal leadership because of the morcha.

I do not blame Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma for causation, I said the following in my original post:

"Many of the occurrences and facts I have presented above are not caused or created by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma. However, in being the leader of Dami Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, and having such warm and close relations with the Badal family, the SGPC, and Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), he has achieved very little in rectifying or ameliorating any of those issues in any meaningful way. It is treachery and deception with the Panth for Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to have aligned, supported, and collaborated with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal)"

 

19 hours ago, chatanga said:

The original plan was to support Badal which meant that Badal had to commit 40 SGPC seats to Sant Samaj. These 40 Sant Samaj nominees won their seats but the congress party took the elections to court where there was a stay of power so the previous SGPC continued as was. The case took 6 years to reach a verdict. If these Sikhs had been able to take their place in SGPC there would most likely have been a great change.

Only 30 seats were allocated to Sant Samaj, out of a grand total of 170! I do not believe there would be any more change than there is now, they would have held 17.64% of the seats of a majority. This was not a coalition where Badal needs the Sant Samaj's votes to pass anything, and as such they hold no leverage over Badal. 

Do you have any documents or information that gives you a clear picture of what changes Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma and the Sant Samaj were going to bring about and what they're action plan looked like after winning those 30 seats? And did said plan look plausible? 

The SGPC was put in limbo by the case but has been run by its de-facto leaders since then, the Badals, and all its operation are still ongoing with them at the helm. The Sant Samaj and Badal still have the same supporting relationship, even more so now than in 2011, and thus I believe the political power the Sant Samaj has now is what they would receive even if the new SGPC house had gone into operation. 

 

19 hours ago, chatanga said:

I agree with you here. Baba Harnam Singh could have and should have done more to move badals hand against the ravan sena. However the problem here was that Badal did not want to pursue these cases himself as it would have made more people aware of the crimes of the ravan sena.

With Kaunke's case, I beleive it was given to the CBI of india to investigate. Not sure, but Harnam Singh should definitely have kept this issue alive.

Who do you refer to by "ravan sena"? 

It would have made people aware of the crimes of the Punjab government, which he orchestrated in part, and aided, abetted, and sheltered from justice the thousands of officers and government officials that were responsible for our genocide. Badal has blood on his hands too, not just CM Beant Singh. You may not be aware, but false encounters in Punjab started under Parkash Badal in the 1970s when he had the Punjab police extra-judicially killing leftist activists and 'comrades'. 

I can't find a source at the moment but from what I remember, the CBI submitted their report to the Punjab government and the Punjab government under Badal never released the report. 

But here's something that shows you the counterfeit an insincere concern for the Panthi's issues:

-https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.religion.sikhism/UJ96Dtk4neQ

While Badal asked for an investigation when he wasn't in power this was what he said when he got in power on Kaunke's case.

"Parkash Singh Badal, now the Chief Minister of Punjab, condemned this action. He was briefly detained for his statement. Yet he has fused to refer this terrible incident for investigation by India's Central bureau of Investigation (CBI) on the flimsy pretext that it would demoralize the murderous, out-of-control Punjab police."

 

19 hours ago, chatanga said:

It is unfair to blame Harnam Singh for these. He had a plan to chnage the SGPC but it was foiled. PLus this was always there when Sant jarnail Singh was there, but no-one blamed him for corruption even though at times he was close to Akali Dal leadership because of the morcha.

See excerpt from my original post above. 

Sant Jarnail Singh started his own morcha. The Akali Dal wanted to align their morcha with his. They mutually did that for the adoption of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution. Sant Jarnail Singh did not support the Shiromani Akali Dal in SGPC election, he supported candidates who stood against them. He did not voice his support for the party or its candidates any election, only collaborated to keep the Panth on one platform for the Dharam Yudh Morcha. 

He neither trusted, confided, or made himself vulnerable to the Akali politicians. He took his own course and created and arms-length partnership for the morcha. This is a very different political strategy to Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's of throwing full support behind the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal) and cozying up to the political elite. 

 

19 hours ago, chatanga said:

The Sant Samaj originally came together for the SGPC elections which unfotunately they were unable to see through to the end. After this various leaders as such who really had no desire to involve themsleves in any politics left.

The Sant Samaj was in operation long before the 2011 SGPC elections. The Sant Samaj actually fought the 2004 elections under the Panthic Morcha against SAD (Badal). - http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110810/punjab.htm#10

Those leaders did not leave because they had no desire to involve themselves in politics anymore. That is a fictitious assertion.

• These leaders had contested the 2004 elections too and stayed united after their loss then. What changed? 
• These leaders left not in 2011 or the following years but in 2016/2017. Why then? That's when the beadbi incidents were happening the the hapless Punjab government and SGPC, both under Badal, did next to nothing constructive to solve the situation and instead used violence against protesters and killed Sikhs. Even after these facts when the many Sant Samaj members were justifiably angry with Badal and wanting to mobilise against him, it was the forever devoted Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma that came out with unwavering support for Badal and his party for the next elections. 
• This was also following the pardon to the Sirsa pakhandi by the Akal Thakht by orders of the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal)'s subsequent support from the Sirsa pakhandi
• https://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/02/03/93-sant-samaj-leaders-part-ways-baba-harnam-singh-dhumma/ - Read the article, the 93 leaders "have distanced themselved from Baba Harnam Singh's announcement to support the Badals"
• Its Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's feeble leadership that has fractured the Sant Samaj

 

19 hours ago, chatanga said:

Those warm relations were there for a purpose. As i have said many times here, in the life and death struggles of the Dal Panth, even they made political/military alliances with the moghals. I wouldn't criticize those Sikhs because they beleived they were acting in the interests of the Panth by siding with an enemy that had committed pogroms against them many times and killed thousands and thousands of Sikhs.

• Those Sikhs who took Nawabis from the Mughals established their autonomous control and helped to grow the Panth and its interests. Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's strategy gives the Panth no autonomy, no control, and he has not pushed forward the Panth's interests in any worthwhile long-lasting way. 

[Prokharkoo84]

Very good post, I'm neither pro or anti Dhumma. It's clear he isn't Sant Jarnail Singh, it's clear he is being controlled by politicians but he has used that for his and I guess the Quoms advantage with the good he has helped bring. I don't agree with the hit on Dhadriawale or how someone who is Gursikh let alone the Mukhi of the Taksal could sit next to azar alam. But I think all us need to realise that in Punjab sadly politics comes before religion, whilst religion is used as a political front. In regards to state of Punjab as a whole, we need all jathebandiyah to make proactive steps. Funny how we all Sat in UK Europe Canada and USA point at the wrongs in Punjab, look at the state of apneh here, nasheh, lack of Keshdhari jawaans  alcohol, girls going with gori kaleh suleh etc whilst the jathebandiyah seem to busy fighting amongst themselves. 

[Prokharkoo84]

Like i said i am neither pro or anti dhumma, but he aint the only one laying claim to the Taksaal. What have the others achieved... i.e. Ram Singh? Ajnala? UK Dharam Yudh Jatha?

Out of those I know Ajnala has been there for the beadbi cases and against pakhandi babeh etc, Ram Singh I dont know much about and UK Dharam Yudh Jatha apart from making videos and cussing others, I havent seen anything proactive be done in either the UK or ground level Punjab.

[chatanga]

On 14/08/2017 at 3:44 PM, Singhballer said:

Bring in Sarna or Badal, their ineptitude toward the betterment of the Panth is the same. 

 

The difference is that Sarna would support the missioanry agenda and Badal would give Harnam Singh full liberty to pursue the Sikh agenda.

This issue of having Dasam bani parchar in Dlehi gurdwaras seems like a very minor issue to you.I suspect with the blase way you write it you are quite angry at the re-emergence of Dasam bani parchar in Delhi gurdwaras. Thats up to you. For me Harnam Singh has achieved something here that I and most Sikhs I know would never have thought would happen. darshan rogi and his missionary bum-chums had been in control for years and casued so much mischief. Thats not an issue to you. I'm glad that Baba Harnam Singh has done something about it.

 

On 14/08/2017 at 3:44 PM, Singhballer said:

Those Sikhs who took Nawabis from the Mughals established their autonomous control and helped to grow the Panth and its interests.

 

Exactly. Baba Harnam Singh and the taksal have been given autonomy to preach proper gurmat throughout Delhi Gurdwaras. This will help the Panth grow and its interests will be defended. You want to take pahul from 3 banis ? go ahead.

 

But I would also read Sikh history a little more as well if I were you. the Sikhs who took the Nawabgi and jagir had it rescinded after 4 years when the Moghals decided they were strong enough to start facing the Sikhs in battle. Then the Sikhs were left without a jagir and a defunct title.

 

Does that mean they were foolish to accept the Moghals offer and got used in the process?

[chatanga]

On 14/08/2017 at 1:19 PM, chatanga said:

Why would badal give Ram Singh recognition as head of the taksal if he had planted Harnam Singh as the head?

@Only five No answer?

[Akalifauj]

On 14/08/2017 at 5:19 AM, chatanga said:

 

Why would badal give Ram Singh recognition as head of the taksal if he had planted Harnam Singh as the head?

Why would Badal make Dhumma sit on the ground and ask for Badal's attention like a good dog?  

[chatanga]

So you have no answer to your lie then. Better not to tell a lie in the first place.