Prokharkoo84

Lessons to be learnt from the Khalistan Movement

122 posts in this topic

9 minutes ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

Vaarchiree as far as I know never got executed. Nor was there anyone around to do so.

Zaffarwal issues with Manochahal. He's a smart man, he knows where they got played against each other. He has never again opposed Manochahal from what I know. Baba Manochahal was THE ultimate Singh.

Bittu, I refuse to make judgements, too controversial. But, please expand on your point regarding Bhai Deepa, I've known people from his pind, other associates too, but never heard a bad word. What are you referring too bro?

 

Sukhdev Singh Babbar, I've tried asking Babbars, since Singh was living lavish in Patiala, but they refuse to speak. Not saying he was a snake, Im hoping it was part of the disguise.

 

You're right about a lot though bro.

Regarding Sukhdev Singh Babbar, I agree it was part of the disguise as he kept operations moving from within Punjab until 92, which in itself was hard. I believe he married one of the Nabey waliyah bibiyah during this time, which tbh I dont know the full story about so hard to judge. Either way, once again his Kurbani is massive too. Do you know why or what differences he had with Talwinder Singh Babbar? I have even heard that Talwinder Singh was not part of the AKJ?

 

Bittu - I agree to hard to make a call, he was the brains behind a lot of moves and I am sure he wasnt a tout. But under the pressure these lot were under, combined with their young age and influence of people of Dr Sohan Sio, mistakes could have easily been made.

Vaincheree - I had a feeling he probably got away with it, doubt there was anyone left to get a badla on him. There are a lot of people in Sikhi saroop in Punjab even today with the blood of a lot of Singhs on their hands. My pind taxi driver always says - you either lost everything during the Sangaarsh or you made it all (referring to the touts).

Gurdeep Singh Deepa Heran - Highly rated by the majority like you said bro, I was making reference to things like him being popular with the ladies. Like I said earlier, not all Kharkoos were Gursikh, the guy was a young man who gave his all to a cause. Regardless of whether this was true about the girlfriends or not, the guy was a proper soldier and gave everything. I beleive he was killed a few days prior to leaving for Canada?

Quote of the day - Baba Manochahal was THE ultimate Singh - 10000%!!!

 

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On 05/08/2017 at 7:31 PM, HarfunMaula said:

A few points come to mind.

  1. The 'social reformist' (samaj sudhaar) activities carried out by the Kharkoos were unnecessary and gave adverse effects to their objective of attaining a sovereign state. These include:
    * forcing women (including news anchors) to wear dupattas
    * threatening and murdering artists (even if they were vulgar like Chamkila)
    * banning the sale of alcohol, tobacco and meat, attacking liquor vendors, barbers, butchers, ...
    * disallowing music at weddings
    * banning saris, cosmetics for women, ...

    Just like any other action it did have positive sides too, the simple marriage ceremonies came with a ban on dowries but enforcing a 'moral code' is not the Sikh way and it alienated not only the non Sikhs but also the 'moderate' Sikhs. 
  2. There was an immense amount of infighting among the kharkoos due to various reasons, including theological, personal and territorial disputes. The DDT and AKJ had at times taken to violent ways to enforce their viewpoints during the movement. Sikhs need to learn to put personal differences away and unite against a common enemy as was shown historically by the Misls.
  3. The intentional targeting of Hindus and families of police officials. While a lot of killings of Hindus were done by the govt under false flag operations to malign the Kharkoo movement, one cannot deny that several Sikhs were deliberately targeting Hindus and the families of police officials. Collateral damage is likely during guerilla warfare but these kind of acts are against our Sikh ideology, no matter what the circumstances are. 

 

 

1. It was a time of danger for all sikhs , and those going in groom's parties were more likely to be stopped and harassed by police even disappeared. My Mama ji(army)  was married during this era and I remember wedding parties were minimal , two cars . it was a stressful time waiting  for them to come back . There was music and traditional dancing inside the homes at that time there wasn't all this kanjarpana at weddings , no marriage palaces, dancers, very few singers (this was a not even a trend).

Women wore dupattas with their suits still , what is wrong with covering your head as a female , sikh guys do it's called a turban? You need to understand your heritage, it is NOT our heritage to behave like western tramps . self-respect is something.

Kharkoos didn't ban make-up and saris , stop making up stuff , they may have suggested that sikh bibian should wear simple and tan dhakan vale khaparde...remember this is coming during the years of 'shudi karan ' operations . Any fool can criticise without thinking about the realities of life back then.

Sikhs don't enforce a moral code ...err really what do you think that Guru Pita ji spent his time giving us, and told us to remind our forgetful bretheren? 

These so called enforcements were purely the rehit and codes that Guru ji had given us -  sikhs should not go in large parties to weddings but only in as large a group that the girl's family can afford to look after comfortably so as to not exploit them. To never ask for daaj. To not celebrate khushi with meat and alcohol, or profane/lewd songs.

Really if non-sikhs didn't appreciate the no daaj rules obviously they were out to fleece the girl's family. I have not heard of any sikh/kharkoo interfere with weddings of non-sikhs maybe you can furnish with something to back up claims.

2. back up your claim against both groups...

3. If police officials could kidnap and rape family members of kharkoos like Goldie's sister on her wedding day, fair play they shouldn't be surprised at the retaliation on themselves , which innocents (family member meaning girls, children wives, parents) have kharkoo attack for definite ?

Kharkoos did deliver justice for the people who couldn't trust the police at all , and people were wary of riling them for no cause e.g. harassment on buses which could be handled by the girl discreetly was.(own experience) . I know what happened to rapists , 2 guys got sorted in my nanake whilst I was there.

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8 minutes ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

Guys like Mann, Bittu, Zaffarwal, I hope they just realized there was no point in fighting with the AK anymore. Guys like Virsa Valtoha however I believe like 100's of others sold out, to some extent. 

Valtoha - i was watching an interview of his on Youtube, whilst yeah could say he sold out, he still semms to have that pyar for Sant Ji. He is another one that its easy for us to cuss sat in our homes in the UK Canada etc, but he did a lot in his jawani aswell. 

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19 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I am not saying sikhs were not killed, but we can't deny butchering of hindus 

yep the real estimate is about 200-300 hindu for the whole period from 1980 until 2000 (taken from official records) unlike the oft-quoted 35,000 by BJP and hinduvta bunch.

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17 minutes ago, Prokharkoo84 said:

Regarding Sukhdev Singh Babbar, I agree it was part of the disguise as he kept operations moving from within Punjab until 92, which in itself was hard. I believe he married one of the Nabey waliyah bibiyah during this time, which tbh I dont know the full story about so hard to judge. Either way, once again his Kurbani is massive too. Do you know why or what differences he had with Talwinder Singh Babbar? I have even heard that Talwinder Singh was not part of the AKJ?

 

Bittu - I agree to hard to make a call, he was the brains behind a lot of moves and I am sure he wasnt a tout. But under the pressure these lot were under, combined with their young age and influence of people of Dr Sohan Sio, mistakes could have easily been made.

Vaincheree - I had a feeling he probably got away with it, doubt there was anyone left to get a badla on him. There are a lot of people in Sikhi saroop in Punjab even today with the blood of a lot of Singhs on their hands. My pind taxi driver always says - you either lost everything during the Sangaarsh or you made it all (referring to the touts).

Gurdeep Singh Deepa Heran - Highly rated by the majority like you said bro, I was making reference to things like him being popular with the ladies. Like I said earlier, not all Kharkoos were Gursikh, the guy was a young man who gave his all to a cause. Regardless of whether this was true about the girlfriends or not, the guy was a proper soldier and gave everything. I beleive he was killed a few days prior to leaving for Canada?

Quote of the day - Baba Manochahal was THE ultimate Singh - 10000%!!!

 

I don't think Parmar was ever part of AKJ. I think mostly they beefed because one was primarily overseas, while other was on front lines. Ego kicks in. People deny it, but I'm VERY sure Sukhdev Babbar and Sant Ji had conflict too. 

Vaarchiree is most likely still out there in the same pind.

I wouldn't ever oppose Deepa over him being popular with ladies, not saying you're doing that, respect is respect. He was Doab da sher.

10 minutes ago, Prokharkoo84 said:

Valtoha - i was watching an interview of his on Youtube, whilst yeah could say he sold out, he still semms to have that pyar for Sant Ji. He is another one that its easy for us to cuss sat in our homes in the UK Canada etc, but he did a lot in his jawani aswell. 

You're right bro, he still shows love, I just feel like something is off though. 

 

 

As forJKV sisters posts, I disagree with 99.9%, it's all biased and emotion driven. They did everything you deny. Speak to those who lived through it. Reform only works through will, not force. 

 

There is no way on earth only 200-300 Hindus died in those 2 decades.

Edited by KhoonKaBadlaKhoon
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On 8/6/2017 at 0:33 PM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Sometimes I wonder if we as a community are in the mess today that we're in because of killing of innocent hindus in 80's 

Like you know the stories of khadkoos bringing out hindus from buses and killing them .And hindu murders elsewhere in punjab back then. 

Whose side you even on? 

1 hour ago, Dsinghdp said:

Sant Harchand Singh Longowal dictator of the dharma yudh morcha was killed by Sikh extremist for signing a deal with Rajiv Gandhi.

He turned against the singhs. They aint extremists. They did what he deserved. 

As to khalistan, realistically i feel it wouldnt work. Not in todays circumstances anyway. Look at the panth, who actually thinks we are capable of having civil conversations and talk with daleel and be understanding when it comes to panthic matters? I dont feel we are ready. As a panth. I cannot see it happening. Khalistan wont bring unity. 

Khoon ka badla, jkvlondon isnt wrong. Are we not all somewhat emotionally driven? Yes i agree we cant force people, but singhs didnt exactly force. You had to adhere to the rules. Thats all. 

How will everyone willingly reform? People will follow rules set by good panthic leadership. If we give people a choice, most likely they will still want to continue with alcohol etc. They are not willingly going to say 'lets ban alcohol'. 

Again, i just dont see it working. Solution is we need parchar. We all become khalse first.

 

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12 minutes ago, JS79 said:

.

Khoon ka badla, jkvlondon isnt wrong. Are we not all somewhat emotionally driven? Yes i agree we cant force people, but singhs didnt exactly force. You had to adhere to the rules. Thats all. 

 

Ajeet is likely a blinded Punjab born Sikh or Hindu.

And people will go by rehat If there is good parchar, not force. Sant Ji didn't force a single soul and God knows how many people turned to Sikhi. He event kept non keshdhari/amritdhari with him, and NEVER forced them to full Gursikh. He knew what'd eventually win over them.

Its unfortunate, but the Singhs did do a lot forceful <banned word filter activated> with the local populace. 

 

 

Edited by KhoonKaBadlaKhoon
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1 hour ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

I don't think Parmar was ever part of AKJ. I think mostly they beefed because one was primarily overseas, while other was on front lines. Ego kicks in. People deny it, but I'm VERY sure Sukhdev Babbar and Sant Ji had conflict too. 

Vaarchiree is most likely still out there in the same pind.

I wouldn't ever oppose Deepa over him being popular with ladies, not saying you're doing that, respect is respect. He was Doab da sher.

You're right bro, he still shows love, I just feel like something is off though. 

 

I wouldnt ever disrespect any of the Kharkoos, no matter what their personal lifestyle was like. None of us are angels and its easy to pick faults in the lads who gave everything, particularly 20 odd years later. 

 

I agree that ego would have been an issue, its like putting 5 lads together now and there is also gona be confilict, regardless of how spirtual each claims to be. 

 It is funny you say something seems off with Valtoha, I get that impression aswell but still gotta rate the dude in his hey day. 

 

Bro do you know much about Harjinder Singh Para's shaheedi?

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27 minutes ago, Prokharkoo84 said:

I wouldnt ever disrespect any of the Kharkoos, no matter what their personal lifestyle was like. None of us are angels and its easy to pick faults in the lads who gave everything, particularly 20 odd years later. 

 

I agree that ego would have been an issue, its like putting 5 lads together now and there is also gona be confilict, regardless of how spirtual each claims to be. 

 It is funny you say something seems off with Valtoha, I get that impression aswell but still gotta rate the dude in his hey day. 

 

Bro do you know much about Harjinder Singh Para's shaheedi?

I agree too, Virsa Singh was frontline in his days. Perhaps we are just paranoid.

 

And, no, nothing bro. I don't think he was set up at all.

Parmar Singh is real controversial too, people say he was an agent etc. But, I've met and seen his kids, the local Khalistan community loves them. If he was an agent, I believe they'd be outcasted by them. Other factors too I wont mention.

 

Not sure if I have said this, but after speaking with people who followed and lived side by side with the movement. Mann Saab was the one who started the flow of the weapons to Singh's at darbar sahib. While he worked as a high ranking cop.

Edited by KhoonKaBadlaKhoon

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3 hours ago, Dsinghdp said:

Sant Harchand Singh Longowal dictator of the dharma yudh morcha was killed by Sikh extremist for signing a deal with Rajiv Gandhi.

Not a single thing from that deal (deal between Rajiv and Longowal) was implemented, so tell me how was this deal good for Sikhs. 

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1 hour ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

I don't think Parmar was ever part of AKJ. I think mostly they beefed because one was primarily overseas, while other was on front lines. Ego kicks in. People deny it, but I'm VERY sure Sukhdev Babbar and Sant Ji had conflict too. 

Vaarchiree is most likely still out there in the same pind.

I wouldn't ever oppose Deepa over him being popular with ladies, not saying you're doing that, respect is respect. He was Doab da sher.

You're right bro, he still shows love, I just feel like something is off though. 

 

I wouldnt ever disrespect any of the Kharkoos, no matter what their personal lifestyle was like. None of us are angels and its easy to pick faults in the lads who gave everything, particularly 20 odd years later. 

 

I agree that ego would have been an issue, its like putting 5 lads together now and there is also gona be confilict, regardless of how spirtual each claims to be. 

 It is funny you say something seems off with Valtoha, I get that impression aswell but still gotta rate the dude in his hey day. 

 

Bro do you know much about Harjinder Singh Para's shaheedi?

45 minutes ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

I agree too, Virsa Singh was frontline in his days. Perhaps we are just paranoid.

 

And, no, nothing bro. I don't think he was set up at all.

Parmar Singh is real controversial too, people say he was an agent etc. But, I've met and seen his kids, the local Khalistan community loves them. If he was an agent, I believe they'd be outcasted by them. Other factors too I wont mention.

 

Not sure if I have said this, but after speaking with people who followed and lived side by side with the movement. Mann Saab was the one who started the flow of the weapons to Singh's at darbar sahib. While he worked as a high ranking cop.

Regarding Virsa Singh Valtoha, he mentions in his interview on YouTube about how many cases he was implicated in along with how dangerous the Sarkar considered him to be. If he wasnt locked up during the Sangaarsh he would probs have been killed. He seems to get slated a lot cause of his link with Badal, but other such as Manjit Singh (Shaheed Bhai Amrik Singhs bro) doesnt get much flack.

 

Para - story i have heard is he was in hospital after getting injured, and here when the CRPF were coming to get him, he took cyanide. The Canadian lot were top lads, gotta rate them bigtime leaving Canada and going Punjab. Do you know anything about the Kabaddi guy Bagri who went with them? He is the big Singh in a white vest in the video of the Singhs training in Pakistan.

 

Mann - wow thats something I have never heard before! I always thought he join the Sangaarsh as a politician quite a while after Bluestar 84, I didnt know he was linked to Sant Ji etc.

 

Parmar - I always rated him personally, but from what I have heard and been told is that he was very set in his ways and was very hot headed, to the point where he was shouting out at a Gurdwara in Canada that he was going to stand on the run way with a rocket launcher and take an Air India flight out. I have heard people accuse him of being an agent... but why was this? He was linked with Lakhbir Singh Rode?

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The reason we are talking about "lessons to be learnt from Khalistan movement" is because Sikhs lost (yes it is obvious and everybody here knows this), if we would have won there would have been "no lesson"  even though some things were done wrong, but I will say, those were symptoms and not the real reason/disease for the Khalistan movement to fail.  Let me explain:  As many of you know, there was a time in late 80s when it seems like Khalistan was going to become a reality, in fact, Indian PM Chander Shaker was ready to make a deal, which was close to demand of Khalistan. However, one external reason (not really external, but out of Sikh control) that killed everything was building a wall between India Punjab and Pakistan Punjab! This wall is the sole reason for the Khalistan movement to fail.

Israel provided this information to India that unless India build a wall, insurgency will never end, and sooner or later Khalistan will come into existence.  As you know, Israel is also surviving because of the wall between palestinian and Israel land.  Of course, Banazir providing the names of Sikh freedom fighters to Indian intelligence didn't help either. Additionally, Pakistan never really wanted to help Sikhs with regard to Khalistan they just wanted Sikhs to create violence in India.

Insurgency is still going on in Kashmir because India cannot build a wall there for many reasons, and unfortunately kashmiri muslims don't know how to fight, if Sikhs were in that area Khalistan would have come into existence.  Anyway, I digress, what I am trying to say is that in late 80s many Sikh freedom fighters realized that Khalistan might not become a reality.  Just to clarify, it is not that they explicitly thought about that, but all the news was very demoralizing (killing of leaders of Sikh movement everyday with impunity).  That is when social reforms, some non justified killing, some wrong deals were made.  Yes, we can learn from them, but in the end we lost for different reason.  I will address some other issues later.

 

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26 minutes ago, acsap said:

The reason we are talking about "lessons to be learnt from Khalistan movement" is because Sikhs lost (yes it is obvious and everybody here knows this), if we would have won there would have been "no lesson"  even though some things were done wrong, but I will say, those were symptoms and not the real reason/disease for the Khalistan movement to fail.  Let me explain:  As many of you know, there was a time in late 80s when it seems like Khalistan was going to become a reality, in fact, Indian PM Chander Shaker was ready to make a deal, which was close to demand of Khalistan. However, one external reason (not really external, but out of Sikh control) that killed everything was building a wall between India Punjab and Pakistan Punjab! This wall is the sole reason for the Khalistan movement to fail.

Israel provided this information to India that unless India build a wall, insurgency will never end, and sooner or later Khalistan will come into existence.  As you know, Israel is also surviving because of the wall between palestinian and Israel land.  Of course, Banazir providing the names of Sikh freedom fighters to Indian intelligence didn't help either. Additionally, Pakistan never really wanted to help Sikhs with regard to Khalistan they just wanted Sikhs to create violence in India.

Insurgency is still going on in Kashmir because India cannot build a wall there for many reasons, and unfortunately kashmiri muslims don't know how to fight, if Sikhs were in that area Khalistan would have come into existence.  Anyway, I digress, what I am trying to say is that in late 80s many Sikh freedom fighters realized that Khalistan might not become a reality.  Just to clarify, it is not that they explicitly thought about that, but all the news was very demoralizing (killing of leaders of Sikh movement everyday with impunity).  That is when social reforms, some non justified killing, some wrong deals were made.  Yes, we can learn from them, but in the end we lost for different reason.  I will address some other issues later.

 

Very good post bro but in regards to losing, I get your side but ultimately we won... Prior to 84 and post 84 look at the shift in change of people who came in touch with Sikhi again, the spirit of the Khalistanis gave the Sikhs their Anakh back and ultimately bro, people like myself and many more most likely wouldn't have an interest in Sikhi if it wasnt due to the Baba Deep Singh,  Sukha Singhs and  Mehtab Singhs of the 80s and 90s

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3 hours ago, Prokharkoo84 said:

Very good post bro but in regards to losing, I get your side but ultimately we won... Prior to 84 and post 84 look at the shift in change of people who came in touch with Sikhi again, the spirit of the Khalistanis gave the Sikhs their Anakh back and ultimately bro, people like myself and many more most likely wouldn't have an interest in Sikhi if it wasnt due to the Baba Deep Singh,  Sukha Singhs and  Mehtab Singhs of the 80s and 90s

As a Sikh, I think we just lost some battles, and in the end we will win the WAR (it might take some time, but we will win)! However, that being said, I don't agree with you.  Yes, Khalistan movement produced some of the great Sikh Shaheeds of all times, and as you, we all are proud of that. You are right, that it brings lot of Anakh/Pride to Sikhs in diaspora and in some places in Punjab.  Still, we cannot deny the fact that we lost, and Hindus make fun of us and remind us that they have killed the "Sikh Spirit".  Airport in Delhi is named after Indira, that is akin to naming airport after Massa Ranghar, and one big road in Punjab is named after Jagat Narain.  Just a year ago, the DGP of punjab was Saini who killed more innocent Sikhs and raped Sikhs mothers, daughters, and sister than anybody else, even present DGP has innocent Sikh bloods on his hand.  Nobody really got punished for Sikh Genocide in Delhi and other parts of India, I personally heard one hindu saying that it seems like you Sikhs have forgot Delhi 84.  Many Sikhs who fought against India are still in jail, you get the picture.

The point I am trying to make is that because of these past and present injustices, many Sikhs (especially in India) feel no pride and that is reason for the following things:

Less and less Sikhs are keeping turban/kesh 

Drug use among Sikhs. Look at any kaum who has lost they have issues with drugs (native americans, black, etc).

Fighting about meat, Dasam Granth, Raag malla, etc.  At this point most Sikhs will fight on superficial reasons instead of realizing we are slaves in Hindu India.  Hindus are enjoying these stupid Sikh fights.

Anyway, I am realizing that I am taking this thread on a different tangent, and I will stop here.  Maybe one day when I have more time, and I will start a new topic on this issue.

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On 03/08/2017 at 5:51 PM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Perhaps its because of this tiny minority alone that panth has survived so far.

Reminds me of story of Abraham and the town of sinners. God said "I am gonna destroy this city full of human trash and sinners",

Abraham being a pious man interceded and said "God If I find just one man righteous in this city , then ?"

God said "I will spare the city for sake of that one man".

Same is with panth. Most of us are such lost sheep . Some of our boys cut their hair and ditched dastars, Others (like me) keep kes and turban but trim their beards , others keep all hair but are lost in alcohol and YoYo.

Its that tiny minority of gursikhs saving us.

Referendum 2020 is not possible I believe. Punjab still lives in india and for referendum to work , Indian govt would have to accept the viability of referendum , like how UK did to scotland when they talked abt breaking from UK. 

But india can't even tolerate 2020 posters , forget abt actually letting it happen. Even if 60% punjab voted in favor of independent sikh state, India can and will still usher in army again to prevent it from happening. 

This is about handcuffing us 

Next level of attack and for which we too are largely responsible is drastic demographic change . Official population of sikhs fell from 61% in 2001 to 57% in 2011 . 

With the continuous inflow of hindu migrants from UP and bihar in punjab , the punjab as we knew it is being lost . Mainu ehi fikar haigi :/

My aim is not to spend pessimism in this forum. But I just want all of sikhs to open our eyes and smell the coffee.

Punjabi culture itself is changing to a more hindu tint and thats inevitable because after all culture is nothing but about people. As are people, so shall be culture. The other day my mom was telling me punjabi sikh girls eloping with bhaiyye hindu munde in punjab.

They came as labourers for farm work, doesn't mean they will remain labourers. Soon they will be a formidable force in electorate . 

Hindus are already whining that punjab has never had a hindu CM . It is very clear what their intentions are. Political dominance of punjab by hindus would be ultimate slap on sikhs and their roaring. It will tell them who calls the shot.

So forget about khalistan for the mo(ve)ment , lets first focus on saving sikh demography in punjab.

Solutions are simple, I will point it out again, but apne in this forum are too lazy to spread it enmasse in sikh community

1) Outbreed the hindus beyond oblivion . I will give to the muslims. Honestly sometimes I feel we're just jealous of them for their immense demographic success. Even 2 kids will not help IMHO. We need atleast 3 kids in each household

2) Stop mass immigration of sikhs outside punjab . Honestly this is quite foolish . 

3) Raise your kids in a gursikhi way . Let gurudware make sikhi school for kids in vacations mandatory or atleast highly encouraging.

If we followed just point 1, hindus will be jawdroppingly stunned . 

I remember a hindu sanghi tell me few days back how sikhs have the lowest birth ratio in india . 

For the sikhs who say I live in la-la land about right-wing hindus dominating punjab, only has to go to youtube and do a basic search on following keywords : "shiv sena punjab", "bajrang dal punjab"  .

Their dominance in punjab is increasing day by day .

So let me just get this right you propose that for sikhi to prosper Sikhs in the panjab should simply have more children... And outbreed Hindus? Lol is this a joke? You clearly are only interested in identity politics and not gurmat.. Our Gurus taught us that through our own lives, behaviour and good deeds other people would develop a interest in gurmat.. Your approach is simply a strategic approach. 

Stop migration out of panjab! So whilst you have the luxury of living abroad you would deny others.. Moreover you would like to see the implementation of draconian stalinist laws 

Make sikhi school mandatory.. Instead of demonstrating the beauty of gurmat through the way we live we should indoctrinate children? 

Wow

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12 hours ago, acsap said:

As a Sikh, I think we just lost some battles, and in the end we will win the WAR (it might take some time, but we will win)! However, that being said, I don't agree with you.  Yes, Khalistan movement produced some of the great Sikh Shaheeds of all times, and as you, we all are proud of that. You are right, that it brings lot of Anakh/Pride to Sikhs in diaspora and in some places in Punjab.  Still, we cannot deny the fact that we lost, and Hindus make fun of us and remind us that they have killed the "Sikh Spirit".  Airport in Delhi is named after Indira, that is akin to naming airport after Massa Ranghar, and one big road in Punjab is named after Jagat Narain.  Just a year ago, the DGP of punjab was Saini who killed more innocent Sikhs and raped Sikhs mothers, daughters, and sister than anybody else, even present DGP has innocent Sikh bloods on his hand.  Nobody really got punished for Sikh Genocide in Delhi and other parts of India, I personally heard one hindu saying that it seems like you Sikhs have forgot Delhi 84.  Many Sikhs who fought against India are still in jail, you get the picture.

The point I am trying to make is that because of these past and present injustices, many Sikhs (especially in India) feel no pride and that is reason for the following things:

Less and less Sikhs are keeping turban/kesh 

Drug use among Sikhs. Look at any kaum who has lost they have issues with drugs (native americans, black, etc).

Fighting about meat, Dasam Granth, Raag malla, etc.  At this point most Sikhs will fight on superficial reasons instead of realizing we are slaves in Hindu India.  Hindus are enjoying these stupid Sikh fights.

Anyway, I am realizing that I am taking this thread on a different tangent, and I will stop here.  Maybe one day when I have more time, and I will start a new topic on this issue.

I agree to an extent bro, the aftermatch of the Sangaarsh is evident... lack of leadership, drugs, lack of kesh, fighting between jathas, maryada issues, increase in pakhandi babeh etc.

From what I know, its appears that all the Sangaarsh did was delay the inevitable anyway, if you look at the timeline, while the Sangaarsh was going on, the amount of guys who did kesh kattal in UK, Canada etc was massive. Sharab has always been an issue in our community, while the modernisation of 'Sikhs' is in line with the rest of the world. The beef between Sikh jathebandis once again is nothing new, although we as a Kaum do appear to be divided more than ever, particularly as our top institutions such as Taksal and Nihangs seem to have lost their way from previous years (not a cuss, just an observation - correct me if I am wrong).

Only Guru Ji knows when we as a Kaum will unite...

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On 06/08/2017 at 11:13 PM, JS79 said:

Oh hello again chatanga!!

Lionhearts? Like the ones who did phulla di barkha on the killers? You mean the gunde who took an innocent life. You say lionheart?

 

I'm talking about those who talk the walk but soil themselves when it comes to the walk. Or the run actually. There was definitely running to the police car.

 

On 07/08/2017 at 9:52 AM, Prokharkoo84 said:

 

Rode - another massive grey area, adored by his click and hated badly by others. I do know he owns the building in Jalandhar that was used for the Awaz E Quom paper I believe, this property is now worth millions.

Zaffarwal - people cuss him, but the guy was isolated and ended up in Switzerland, he ran out of options. But does anyone know what his issues with Baba Manochahal were?

Bittu - I have heard the rumour he was responsible for the Shaheedi of Gurjant Singh Budhsinghwala too, as he set the meeting up in Model Town Ludhiana? Also I have heard he was responsible for General Labh Singh too? Either way, hes another one who has done a lot of jail and gave his jawani for the Sangaarsh.

Does anyone know who was responsible for Sukhdev Singh Babbar's Shaheedi? Was it due Gurdeep Singh Sivia getting picked up?

 

All these grey areas of the Sangaarsh need to be brought up, a lot of lessons to be learnt here and I personally rather have an educated and informed view of what happened rather than look back with rose tinted glasses.

 

 

Bhai Jasvir Singh Rode has been discussed many times here.

Zafarwal knew a long time before the others that the movement was failing badly. The reason was the ISI were using the armed movement for their own goals. Zafarwal refused to target Hindus under ISI orders which is why they stopped arms sales to his group. Yes - arms sales - arms that they gave free to the Kashmiris were sold to the Sikhs.

Bittu is a clever guy, very talented but he dropped a clanger over the 1992 elections. This was the main reason for congress govt coming in and destroying Khalistan movement.

Sivia - a UK national was arrested by ravan sena aka Panjab police. Shortly after his arrest major BK men were arrested or killed. He has denied given the police any info.

 

Bhai Baljit Singh wrote several books on the sangrash one of which was called "ik khooni dahaka" "A bloody decade".

 

I read it a long time ago. Try reading that for more info.

 

On 07/08/2017 at 0:10 PM, Prokharkoo84 said:

 

Quote of the day - Baba Manochahal was THE ultimate Singh - 10000%!!!

 

Manochahal was accused of making his own fiefdom in Tarntaran by the other leaders. But he was politically aware and was fully supporting Maan Akali Dal in 1992 elections before other kharkhoo groups enforced a boycott on the participation in elections. I remember talking about this boycott to a UK MP. He told me that boycotting elections was grave mistake.

 

On 07/08/2017 at 0:17 PM, Prokharkoo84 said:

Valtoha - i was watching an interview of his on Youtube, whilst yeah could say he sold out, he still semms to have that pyar for Sant Ji. He is another one that its easy for us to cuss sat in our homes in the UK Canada etc, but he did a lot in his jawani aswell. 

 

Vadala was one of the main AISSF guys. I dont know whether other know this, but not all AISSF people supported Khalistan as a separate country. Vadala was one of those, but he was very much involved upto around late 1980s I think.

 

On 07/08/2017 at 2:43 PM, acsap said:

Not a single thing from that deal (deal between Rajiv and Longowal) was implemented, so tell me how was this deal good for Sikhs. 

 

gandhi dismissed the deal on longoawal death. it was so convenient for him.

 

On 07/08/2017 at 2:46 PM, Prokharkoo84 said:

 

Regarding Virsa Singh Valtoha, he mentions in his interview on YouTube about how many cases he was implicated in along with how dangerous the Sarkar considered him to be. If he wasnt locked up during the Sangaarsh he would probs have been killed. He seems to get slated a lot cause of his link with Badal, but other such as Manjit Singh (Shaheed Bhai Amrik Singhs bro) doesnt get much flack.

Mann - wow thats something I have never heard before! I always thought he join the Sangaarsh as a politician quite a while after Bluestar 84, I didnt know he was linked to Sant Ji etc.

 

Yes Bhai Manjit Singh sided with badal Dal and has achieved nothing of not for the Panth. Harnam Singh sided with Badal and has achieved many things. People forget very quickly.  But the worst in my opinion was Harminder Singh Gill (another AISSF main guy who didnt beleive in Khalistan) who went over to the Congress party on the offer of a ticket for election. he survived 1984 and spent time in jail as well. Yet he went to the congress party in order to further his political career.

 

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On 7 August 2017 at 4:24 PM, Prokharkoo84 said:

 in Sikhi if it wasnt due to the Baba Deep Singh,  Sukha Singhs and  Mehtab Singhs of the 80s and 90s

Sorry to burst everyone's bubbles but how dare some of you compare mahan panth de shaheeds such as baba Singh and methab Singh who willingly gave himself for shaheedi after hearing f his friend Tara Singh being captured:killed to the shaheeds of 80s.

 

what at you need to understand you blind people is Sikhs back then were not well off compared to 80s. They did not have massive kottis in the 1700s comparing to 80s, they could not go and buy utensils/products from the local shops in the 1750s compared to te 80s, they could not peacefully visit their guru ghars in the 1700s they lived under constant duress f death for nearly 70plus years to the point they could not be physically seen out and about during the day because someone would try to kill them for money from the government, tey hid and came out at night. They could not casually drive down the road as sikhs of the 80s could . So please tell me how can you compare te likes of baba deep Singh to Sikh f the 80s. They were fighting two different battles!

sikhs of baba his time faught after the desecration of sri darbar sahib, baba gurbaskh Singh faught outside the parkarma to stop the afghan hordes coming in. The Sikhs of the 80s took up defences inside the complex fully knowing if te army attacks the akal takht would be damaged. The Sikhs of old did not spill blood like that. Even when the British attacked Amritsar late 1840s the akal takht etc was not touched, why? The singhs fought outside of the complex and the akal takht was not touched. 

 

Whereas as the singhs of 80s hid behind the akal takht and used it as a shield provoking the army to attack, so I ask again how can you dogs compare the kurbani of methab Singh and baba deep singh and even akali gurbaksh Singh to the likes of operation blie star shaheeds ?????? That is a outside and a bloody slap to our  shaheeds of the 1700s who blessed for darshan f Amritsar who could not go unlike the Sikhs of partitioned India who could casually wake up and go to get darshan...how can you compare the two???? 

Don't say such vile things again 

 

read sri prachin panth Parkash and you will uderstand how those singhs f old that you mentioned faughr and the times they lived in and how the singhs of 80s faught and the times they lived in. There is a big difference. Stop letting your blind bias beliefs whitewash shaheeds of the past and 80s shaheeds 

 

the sikhs of 1700s lived in constant war and death over their shoulders, Sikhs of the 80s lived in luxury so how can you compare the two? Choddddu 

Edited by Destruction
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Why were Sikhs of the 1700s persecuted? Why were Sikhs of 80s persecuted did the root cause and you will see both timelines are two different things and in no way can be compared with each other I feel sick at you even making me read such a vile statement. There is a bit in prachin panth Parkash which mentions how the singhs could not even buy from various towns products and resources had you read that? Could te Sikhs walk down the road and buy daal flour and other things? You make me sick. 

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5 hours ago, chatanga said:

 

 

Sivia - a UK national was arrested by ravan sena aka Panjab police. Shortly after his arrest major BK men were arrested or killed. He has denied given the police any info.

 

Manochahal was accused of making his own fiefdom in Tarntaran by the other leaders. But he was politically aware and was fully supporting Maan Akali Dal in 1992 elections before other kharkhoo groups enforced a boycott on the participation in elections. I remember talking about this boycott to a UK MP. He told me that boycotting elections was grave mistake.

Interesting, never knew that bit about Zaffarwal.

 

What do you think of Sukhdev Singh Babbar staying in a nice khoti in Patiala? A lot of people say it was a clever disguise of hiding in plain view. I'm not saying that's B.S and that he was living there off of the Panth. But I've always been curious what people generally thought of that. Any more info of that?

 

As far as I know Manochahal and BTFK were the strongest easily in Tarn Taran/majha. While most groups had to go into malwa/Doaba, they still stuck around and controlled it. Perhaps a bit jealousy from other leaders? 

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11 hours ago, chatanga said:

 

I'm talking about those who talk the walk but soil themselves when it comes to the walk. Or the run actually. There was definitely running to the police car.

 

 

Bhai Jasvir Singh Rode has been discussed many times here.

Zafarwal knew a long time before the others that the movement was failing badly. The reason was the ISI were using the armed movement for their own goals. Zafarwal refused to target Hindus under ISI orders which is why they stopped arms sales to his group. Yes - arms sales - arms that they gave free to the Kashmiris were sold to the Sikhs.

Bittu is a clever guy, very talented but he dropped a clanger over the 1992 elections. This was the main reason for congress govt coming in and destroying Khalistan movement.

Sivia - a UK national was arrested by ravan sena aka Panjab police. Shortly after his arrest major BK men were arrested or killed. He has denied given the police any info.

 

Bhai Baljit Singh wrote several books on the sangrash one of which was called "ik khooni dahaka" "A bloody decade".

 

I read it a long time ago. Try reading that for more info.

 

 

Manochahal was accused of making his own fiefdom in Tarntaran by the other leaders. But he was politically aware and was fully supporting Maan Akali Dal in 1992 elections before other kharkhoo groups enforced a boycott on the participation in elections. I remember talking about this boycott to a UK MP. He told me that boycotting elections was grave mistake.

 

 

Vadala was one of the main AISSF guys. I dont know whether other know this, but not all AISSF people supported Khalistan as a separate country. Vadala was one of those, but he was very much involved upto around late 1980s I think.

 

 

gandhi dismissed the deal on longoawal death. it was so convenient for him.

 

 

Yes Bhai Manjit Singh sided with badal Dal and has achieved nothing of not for the Panth. Harnam Singh sided with Badal and has achieved many things. People forget very quickly.  But the worst in my opinion was Harminder Singh Gill (another AISSF main guy who didnt beleive in Khalistan) who went over to the Congress party on the offer of a ticket for election. he survived 1984 and spent time in jail as well. Yet he went to the congress party in order to further his political career.

 

Thank you brother for replying, I was hoping you along with Khoon Ka Badla would reply.

 

Rode - I have read the previous threads and I think it will always be a grey area, I beleive he started with the Panth's interests at heart, but he couldnt fill the massive boots of Sant Ji and perhaps he was always going to be judged on this basis.

Zaffarwal - thanks for the info, it would be very interesting to know how the involvement of the ISI actually worked during the Sangaarsh. So if you have details on this, please share.

Baba Manochahal - 'accused of making his own fiefdom in Tarntaran by the other leaders' - whats a fiefdom? Also do you know which leaders?

Bittu - I agree the boycott of the elections is a massive reason why things are the way they are now. Do you know much about the rumours about him having Labh Singh and Budhsinghwala killed?

Manjit Singh I beleve sold out for a hotel in a ludhiana and a car, which even suprised the GOI has they sent a delegation with unlimited funds to buy him thinking he would be a hard nut to crack judging by who his brother was, however he sold out at the first offer.

Gill - I agree 100%/

 

You mention vadala, do you mean Gurnam Singh Bandala aka neela tara? We were talking about Virsa Singh Valtoha of the Akali Dal.

 

Also any information on what happened to Santokh Kala? also another guy called Balwinder Singh, cant remeber the last name but he was part of the BTFK but then him and Baba Manochahal had major beef?

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10 hours ago, Destruction said:

Why were Sikhs of the 1700s persecuted? Why were Sikhs of 80s persecuted did the root cause and you will see both timelines are two different things and in no way can be compared with each other I feel sick at you even making me read such a vile statement. There is a bit in prachin panth Parkash which mentions how the singhs could not even buy from various towns products and resources had you read that? Could te Sikhs walk down the road and buy daal flour and other things? You make me sick. 

Read my opening post and you contribution does not answer anything, and is a waste of your time and mine. Please don't add to this post, make your own i you feel so strongly.

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6 hours ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

 

 

What do you think of Sukhdev Singh Babbar staying in a nice khoti in Patiala? A lot of people say it was a clever disguise of hiding in plain view. I'm not saying that's B.S and that he was living there off of the Panth. But I've always been curious what people generally thought of that. Any more info of that?

 

 

And please provide info on this?

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11 hours ago, Destruction said:

Why were Sikhs of the 1700s persecuted? Why were Sikhs of 80s persecuted did the root cause and you will see both timelines are two different things and in no way can be compared with each other I feel sick at you even making me read such a vile statement. There is a bit in prachin panth Parkash which mentions how the singhs could not even buy from various towns products and resources had you read that? Could te Sikhs walk down the road and buy daal flour and other things? You make me sick. 

Agreed. This pakora nakh is a vile human.. most of what he says will make you sick. A thoroughly unpleasant and non intellectual person with no decency whatsoever ever. A scourge on society and a waste of oxygen. Prokharkoo84 A person lacking in any good character traits what so ever. Morally corrupt and psychologically a failure as well as mentally and physically weak. And he remain so for the rest of his sad existence.   He has a a lot of soul searching to do. 

Edited by Big_Tera
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6 minutes ago, Big_Tera said:

Agreed. This pakora nakh is a vile human.. most of what he says will make you sick. A thoroughly unpleasant and non intellectual person with no decency whatsoever ever. A scourge on society and a waste of oxygen. Prokharkoo84 A person lacking in any good character traits what so ever. Morally corrupt and psychologically a failure a swell as mentally and physically weak. And he remain so for the rest of his sad existence.   He has a a lot of soul searching to do. 

LOL fat boy i aint the one threatening some bechara with a thappar on a Sikh forum for no reason, or coming here about your goat curry fetish or how your some big man popping 10 kids out when you aint even ever a had a woman look at u, without pitying you LOL. Yes I am 'Morally corrupt and psychologically a failure a swell as mentally and physically weak' but I am still not as bad as you LOL. Stick to munching goats and having your mummy give you a tedh malash LOL. Now unless you got something productive to add to this thread, please dont embarass yourself as per usual. Instead send me a private message and I am more than happy to meet you face to face and lets have it like men.

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