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Prokharkoo84

Lessons to be learnt from the Khalistan Movement

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8 minutes ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

You may not want it, but vast majority of Punjabis did/do want music. Women not being allowed to put their hair down? Once again, vast majority of women aren't going to wear a pagg or chunni 24/7. These silly rules was a major factor people turned their backs on kharkus. 

And it is our responsibility to analyze what happened, it'd be a shame if we didn't point out the pros and cons. This is how you learn. And there's nothing wrong with saying they made mistakes. 

I somewhat agree with your points above. Analysing is good and yes i also agree it is a way forward. And yes spotting mistakes is a good quality to have. However personally I don't feel these rules were wrong. I think they showed us an example of how many things should be in regard to weddings and so forth. In my eyes, I see it as parchar.

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1 hour ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

You may not want it, but vast majority of Punjabis did/do want music. Women not being allowed to put their hair down? Once again, vast majority of women aren't going to wear a pagg or chunni 24/7. These silly rules was a major factor people turned their backs on kharkus. 

From what I heard only Babbar Khalsa had a Rehat requirement, while the others were more open to Maryada. (Also they seemed to be the only ones who required their group to have Amritdhari only requirements as well as having a minimum Nitnem memorized requirement). 

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On 04/08/2017 at 0:35 AM, Prokharkoo84 said:

Cheers brother for replying, I was hoping you would provide an input as I can see from your previous posts you know the score regarding what was reality during the Sangaarsh as opposed to some of the fairy tale stories that are in circulation. I agree fully that actions by some kharkoos which was interpreted as 'taliban' style behaviour pushed a lot of common folk away, while as much as I rate Gurnek Singh Neka and co for popping Chamkila off, it did cause the Sangaarsh to be pushed back. Regarding Dhanna Singh, I think whilst it is easy for mans like me to sit in my own luxury Khalistan aka the UK and diss him, his kurbani is still massive considering he did what he did in his youth which is more than what most 'Khalistanis' particularly in the disapora have achieved. 

In regards to my opening post, can you shed light on the roles of individuals such as Zaffarwal, Rode, Bittu and Mann to who their seems to be a lot of clouds over? Personally I still rate all those mentioned apart from Rode (to all readers - do not turn this into an argument). Also brother, any information on those who switched sides and had top Singhs such as Baba Manochahal, Gurjant Singh Budhsinghwala, General Labh Singh etc killed?

Thanks in advance brother.

All have tons of controversy. Is it possible govt let bygones be bygones and told zaffarwal he can come back, without having to provide info etc? Could be. Rode, I'm not sure what to believe, while some people say he cut a deal got released, couple members here say he was scapegoat. Bittu, some folks even say he was behind Budhsinghwala killing, others say he is solid and till day is doing Seva of Shaheed parvaars. Serious accusation throw anyways, without evidence. Mann to me seems like a good man, but a bit foolish.  

 

General Labh Singh was apparently going to Pakistan, night before he was killed. His wife said she saw who she thinks was Labh Singh and someone unknown to her leaving in a jeep. Next day his body was found, alone. So perhaps whoever was with him had him set up? Although I'm not sure who it was. Manochahal it's commonly known Sukhwant Vaarchiree, an associate of his switched, probably for cash, I don't believe he was tortured and flipped. 

 

For a lot of things, we will never find out the truth now. Its gone with the shaheeds. 

28 minutes ago, JS79 said:

I somewhat agree with your points above. Analysing is good and yes i also agree it is a way forward. And yes spotting mistakes is a good quality to have. However personally I don't feel these rules were wrong. I think they showed us an example of how many things should be in regard to weddings and so forth. In my eyes, I see it as parchar.

Parchar is fine bro, but not when done by force. 

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1 hour ago, Jacfsing2 said:

From what I heard only Babbar Khalsa had a Rehat requirement, while the others were more open to Maryada. (Also they seemed to be the only ones who required their group to have Amritdhari only requirements as well as having a minimum Nitnem memorized requirement). 

Yeah, that's true. They were also the ones who were strictest on civilians, while other groups were generally a bit more relaxed. 

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10 hours ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

Parchar is fine bro, but not when done by force. 

I am not khalistani but for example, imagine if suddenly we got khalistan. Would we say 'it is unnecessary to ban tobacco, barbers, cinemas, pubs, meat shops, wessing parties etc'. Of course everything would have to transform and live according to khalsa regulations only. Back then the singhs made it the closest thing to khalistan. 

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1 hour ago, JS79 said:

I am not khalistani but for example, imagine if suddenly we got khalistan. Would we say 'it is unnecessary to ban tobacco, barbers, cinemas, pubs, meat shops, wessing parties etc'. Of course everything would have to transform and live according to khalsa regulations only. Back then the singhs made it the closest thing to khalistan. 

The Sikh Empire as well as Banda Singh Bahadur's rule, (who was selected by Guru Sahib himself), didn't create rules for civilians that would effect their daily lives. Also what will you do about the 40% Non-Sikhs.

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28 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

The Sikh Empire as well as Banda Singh Bahadur's rule, (who was selected by Guru Sahib himself), didn't create rules for civilians that would effect their daily lives. Also what will you do about the 40% Non-Sikhs.

Wouldnt everyone live according to their religion. Im not sure. But most likely people other than sikhs wouldnt want to live in khalistan anyways. Even some sikhs may not want to. 

If everything in terms of wrong things were to carry on then why do they need to call it khalistan. Isnt that a bit misleading. The name will not change whats going on at ground level in punjab. Maharaj tells us the definition of a khalsa and say if we miraculously got khalistan shouldnt they atleast try to promote how to live according to a khalsa lifestyle?  For sikhs anyway. E.g. they should really sieve throigh every field and for example stop bhangra groups in colleges and preach dharam. I dont know what other religions would do they might get bored and leave. Khalistan is probably never going to happen its a bit unrealistic but lets see. If they think khalistan is about human rights and equality that is a good idea but that could then happen anywhere. Sikhs dont need land named khalistan we need corruption out of the current system. Khalistan could also become corrupt. It most likely will because the leadership in khalistan will probably be no different to our current leadership. The only difference would be that the current leaders will become stronger and more corrupt. Again, my personal view and i could be totally wrong. Maybe khalistan will have a chardikala panthic singh in charge who is not biased at all and strong to stand by the truth regardless.

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Sometimes I wonder if we as a community are in the mess today that we're in because of killing of innocent hindus in 80's 

Like you know the stories of khadkoos bringing out hindus from buses and killing them .And hindu murders elsewhere in punjab back then. 

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23 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Sometimes I wonder if we as a community are in the mess today that we're in because of killing of innocent hindus in 80's 

Like you know the stories of khadkoos bringing out hindus from buses and killing them .And hindu murders elsewhere in punjab back then. 

I sense bulls***. You are either trolling, or joking or both...I'm not aware of any 'innocent Hindus' that were killed. Those were GOI arranged killings to make Sikhs look bad. So, the 'mess' is nothing to do with that!

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30 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Sometimes I wonder if we as a community are in the mess today that we're in because of killing of innocent hindus in 80's 

Like you know the stories of khadkoos bringing out hindus from buses and killing them .And hindu murders elsewhere in punjab back then. 

Only Black Cats were killing innocent Hindus, and even if 1 or 2 Hindus were wrongfully brought to justice in your view, how many Sikhs were wrongfully killed? Way more than even the best number for the other side.

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3 hours ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Only Black Cats were killing innocent Hindus, and even if 1 or 2 Hindus were wrongfully brought to justice in your view, how many Sikhs were wrongfully killed? Way more than even the best number for the other side.

I am not saying sikhs were not killed, but we can't deny butchering of hindus 

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On 03/08/2017 at 2:14 PM, Prokharkoo84 said:

 Do you know much about Dhanna Singh from Panthic Commitee and why he left after Sarbat Khalsa and what his role was when he got to the USA?

 

Dhanna Singh was in hiding for a while as were the original Panthik Committee. They all made their own ways after historic Sarbat Khalsa. Like many people I though that Dhanna Singh had become shaheed but then he surfaced in USA some time after. Don't know anything a bout his activities after he got there.

 

On 03/08/2017 at 3:40 PM, Dsinghdp said:

During the Khalistan movement, Hindus were terrorised in Punjab. Some 400 were murdered.

 

This was just indian govt propoganda. They made up stories that Hindus were being victimized in Panjab by Sikhs. The conveniently forget that many Sikhs were killed by Hindus and may gurdwaras burnt by Hindus during the Panjabi Suba morcha. They conveniently foget that Taksal paid for a mandir to be built in a Panjab prison.

 

On 03/08/2017 at 3:53 PM, JS79 said:

 

Also, sant ji listed 17 matte for anandpur da matta. How are we trying to achieve that? Sant ji wanted sikhs to have equal rights. Sant ji gave shaheedi for that!

 

Sant Ji wanted Sikhs to have their territorial, religious and human rights. He gave his life for it.

 

On 03/08/2017 at 3:53 PM, JS79 said:

 We sikhs cannot even give fellow sikhs equal right. Our matteh have become ways to stop gurmat parchar. We have a lot of work to do to impress sant ji. We bend over backwards to stop gurmat yet what about the reason sant ji gave shaheedi.

 

The only Sikhs that can have equal rights are those who beleive  in Sikhi. Those who beleieve in missionary nonsense and darshan rogi, giving them any kind of "equal rights as sikhs" would destroy sikhi. Sant Ji gave his life to keep Sikhi alive. These missionaries are trying their best to destroy Sikhi.

 

On 03/08/2017 at 3:53 PM, JS79 said:

 We say we respect sant ji but the true way of respecting is by trying to lead a life that they would approve. Standing up against injustice and evil. Whoever it may be that is causing it. 

 

You dont respect Sant Jarnial Singh. If you did you would never mention them in the same breath as cretins like dhunda and dhapali. How can disrespecting your Guru be approved by Sant Jarnail Singh?

 

On 03/08/2017 at 3:53 PM, JS79 said:

  Standing up against injustice and evil. Whoever it may be that is causing it. 

 

Only lionhearts can do that. The others run to the nearest police car.

 

On 05/08/2017 at 7:31 PM, HarfunMaula said:

A few points come to mind.

  1. The 'social reformist' (samaj sudhaar) activities carried out by the Kharkoos were unnecessary and gave adverse effects to their objective of attaining a sovereign state. These include:
    * forcing women (including news anchors) to wear dupattas
    * threatening and murdering artists (even if they were vulgar like Chamkila)
    * banning the sale of alcohol, tobacco and meat, attacking liquor vendors, barbers, butchers, ...
    * disallowing music at weddings
    * banning saris, cosmetics for women, ...

    Just like any other action it did have positive sides too, the simple marriage ceremonies came with a ban on dowries but enforcing a 'moral code' is not the Sikh way and it alienated not only the non Sikhs but also the 'moderate' Sikhs. 
  2. There was an immense amount of infighting among the kharkoos due to various reasons, including theological, personal and territorial disputes. The DDT and AKJ had at times taken to violent ways to enforce their viewpoints during the movement. Sikhs need to learn to put personal differences away and unite against a common enemy as was shown historically by the Misls.
  3. The intentional targeting of Hindus and families of police officials. While a lot of killings of Hindus were done by the govt under false flag operations to malign the Kharkoo movement, one cannot deny that several Sikhs were deliberately targeting Hindus and the families of police officials. Collateral damage is likely during guerilla warfare but these kind of acts are against our Sikh ideology, no matter what the circumstances are. 

 

 

 

At the time this social reform was announced there was opposition to it from many quarters. Two other things to be added to this list are only "11 members of a baraat, and no jeans for females at colleges/universities."

 

Many at the time saw this as a deflection away from the true poltic goal of the Sikhs and a chance to embroil them in other matters taking the focus and energy away from the issues that mattered most.

 

Families of police began to be targeted only after ravan sena started to kill relatives of Sikhs mainly under gills rule. It was more of a reaction than action.

 

On 05/08/2017 at 8:11 PM, JS79 said:

Imagine if a thief came to your house and killed your family and tried to stab you. God forbid. What would you do? You would do what you think is best at the time. Maybe you would kill the thief i dont know. Would it be right for me to say 'you could have considered.... this and that'. No of course not. You had to act.

 

You dont half me me laugh.

 

9 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Sometimes I wonder if we as a community are in the mess today that we're in because of killing of innocent hindus in 80's 

Like you know the stories of khadkoos bringing out hindus from buses and killing them .And hindu murders elsewhere in punjab back then. 

 

No, the mess that we are in todays stems from the loss of the Lahore Darbar, Since 1849, the Sikhs have been sliding downhill and seem to keep on slliding.

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12 hours ago, JS79 said:

I am not khalistani but for example, imagine if suddenly we got khalistan. Would we say 'it is unnecessary to ban tobacco, barbers, cinemas, pubs, meat shops, wessing parties etc'. Of course everything would have to transform and live according to khalsa regulations only. Back then the singhs made it the closest thing to khalistan. 

If that's what Khalistan would be, you will have 80% people leave, or be very angry. Khalistan should be out where those who want too practice Sikhi can do so freely, and Sikh interests are a top priority. If it's about forcing everyone to abide by Sikh rules, it will fail. 

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50 minutes ago, chatanga said:

The only Sikhs that can have equal rights are those who beleive  in Sikhi. Those who beleieve in missionary nonsense and darshan rogi, giving them any kind of "equal rights as sikhs" would destroy sikhi. Sant Ji gave his life to keep Sikhi alive. These missionaries are trying their best to destroy sikhi

You dont respect Sant Jarnial Singh. If you did you would never mention them in the same breath as cretins like dhunda and dhapali. How can disrespecting your Guru be approved by Sant Jarnail Singh?

Only lionhearts can do that. The others run to the nearest police car.

 

Oh hello again chatanga!!

Nice to hear from you.

Sirsa wala, badal, badal da munda, sgpc, jathedars, dhumma, dhummas little helpers - these are destroying sikhi. We all see it. 

Oh. I didnt know you was the one who approves who can or cannot say sant jarnail singh jis name. Sounds like dhumma in his first audio. I can say their name if i want to. Infact its dhumma that shouldnt say sant jarnail singh jis name especially after his barbaric manmat extreme actions. 

Lionhearts? Like the ones who did phulla di barkha on the killers? You mean the gunde who took an innocent life. You say lionheart? Haha.

 

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Thanks to all replies, especially the ones that are relevant to this topic, whilst others which are not beneficial such as Ajeet Singh's, can you please stop as your input is not needed in this topic.

 

Regarding the Samaaj Sudhar lehar, I agree this caused a detriment to the Sangaarsh. The common Punjabi who lived in Punjab during this period did not want this and it eventually contributed to the Singhs being turned away by the common folk. However, I do agree initiatives such as small bharats for weddings etc was good and would have helped a lot of people in Punjab today, particularly the poor. 

Regarding the sale of alcohol being targeted by Kharkoos, this is a grey area as whether people in this country like it or not, there were Kharkoos who were not Amritdhari and did drink etc. I know from a personal account that near Jalandhar area there were a group of Kharkoos who had taken over a Khoo. Here they used to session etc while the landowner was too scared to get rid of them. Eventually an Akali Dal MLA intervened and they left, however the same group were at a wedding where a lot of coppers were too and they all even drank together. I am not saying these were top Singhs, but they were still Kharkoos who fought which is a lot bigger than anyone in the disapora shouting slogans or wearing tshirts. A lot of Kharkoos did have girlfriends etc aswell, what people need to realise is, if the Sangaarsh started again now, the kind of people that would join would not just be Amritdharis of the highest jeevan and nor was this case pre and post 84. Deepa Heran despite what people say, in Doaba area his character is well known and he wasnt a Gursikh by any mean, but once again his Kurbani is MASSIVE and he did what most can only fantasize about.

Any ideas what happened to Sukhvant Vaincheree afterwards?

Rode - another massive grey area, adored by his click and hated badly by others. I do know he owns the building in Jalandhar that was used for the Awaz E Quom paper I believe, this property is now worth millions.

Zaffarwal - people cuss him, but the guy was isolated and ended up in Switzerland, he ran out of options. But does anyone know what his issues with Baba Manochahal were?

Bittu - I have heard the rumour he was responsible for the Shaheedi of Gurjant Singh Budhsinghwala too, as he set the meeting up in Model Town Ludhiana? Also I have heard he was responsible for General Labh Singh too? Either way, hes another one who has done a lot of jail and gave his jawani for the Sangaarsh.

Does anyone know who was responsible for Sukhdev Singh Babbar's Shaheedi? Was it due Gurdeep Singh Sivia getting picked up?

 

All these grey areas of the Sangaarsh need to be brought up, a lot of lessons to be learnt here and I personally rather have an educated and informed view of what happened rather than look back with rose tinted glasses.

 

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