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Prokharkoo84

Lessons to be learnt from the Khalistan Movement

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Just now, MisterrSingh said:

Spiritually speaking, perhaps. 

Anyone else feel uncomfortable conducting these conversations on a viewable public forum? It's a shame not many can read and write Punjabi on this forum. It would prevent at least the non-Sikh casual lurker from picking up on what we're expressing. Other nationalities such as the Orientals, etc, conduct their business on internet forums using their relevant languages. Something to think about.

I agree but what is to say that a lurker wouldn't be learnt in punjabi ?

Secondly , we seriously need to consider the "outbreed the enemy" concept . 

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22 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I agree but what is to say that a lurker wouldn't be learnt in punjabi ?

Secondly , we seriously need to consider the "outbreed the enemy" concept . 

At least it would significantly reduce the potential for unwanted prying eyes to pore over these discussions. Now we're just serving it up on a plate for any nosey parker.

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3 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

At least it would significantly reduce the potential for unwanted prying eyes to pore over these discussions. Now we're just serving it up on a plate for any nosey parker.

 

I disagree mate  , its educational for non Sikh to understand   the issues at the heat of Sikhs from a Sikh prospective and it allows Non sikhs  to share there views and ask questions.

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2 hours ago, Punjabiwolves said:

I disagree mate  , its educational for non Sikh to understand   the issues at the heat of Sikhs from a Sikh prospective and it allows Non sikhs  to share there views and ask questions.

I believe there's room for both for the sake of conversation and functional purposes, but ultimately with an emphasis on our language. It harks back to something that's dawned on me quite recently, whereby those cultures and civilisations that don't care for their own tongue or are forced into a situation where those people are forced to abandon their language, well those groups are living on borrowed time. All the non-western countries in the East such as the Japanese and the Chinese are immensely aware and proud (in a good way) of the significance of their respective languages being central to their existence. That comes from having your own country and having a semblance of control over the direction of the future and prosperity of your people. Sadly we don't have such options. The best we can do is learn Punjabi and pass it on to our future generations; what we must not allow to happen is to let Punjabi become an irrelevant and useless language.

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19 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

I believe there's room for both for the sake of conversation and functional purposes, but ultimately with an emphasis on our language. It harks back to something that's dawned on me quite recently, whereby those cultures and civilisations that don't care for their own tongue or are forced into a situation where those people are forced to abandon their language, well those groups are living on borrowed time. All the non-western countries in the East such as the Japanese and the Chinese are immensely aware and proud (in a good way) of the significance of their respective languages being central to their existence. That comes from having your own country and having a semblance of control over the direction of the future and prosperity of your people. Sadly we don't have such options. The best we can do is learn Punjabi and pass it on to our future generations; what we must not allow to happen is to let Punjabi become an irrelevant and useless language.

I do think this forum should stick in English; however, Punjabi,(Gurmukhi), should be heavily encouraged, so in the future, we won't be dependent on people exploiting it. Unlike the Japanese and Chinese who are independent people, (regardless of personal issues), are relatively free. Punjabis are not free, so as a whole, we have to be effective in at least being independently minded. But I don't see the problem in discussing Khalistan even if Non-Sikhs are on this forum.

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15 hours ago, Prokharkoo84 said:

Thanks for replying brother. I have read this book and it is very good. Do you know much about Dhanna Singh from Panthic Commitee and why he left after Sarbat Khalsa and what his role was when he got to the USA?

Not sure why he left, perhaps just had an opportunity to leave and he took it? But I have read he was sending money from USA back to Punjab. Although we cant say that's specifically why he left.

 

As for mistakes made? Where to even start, that's a difficult question. Infighting, letting in miscreants, different groups having different goals, lack of proper structure in many cases. Some may not want to hear this, but the few kharkus who tried to forcibly stop alcohol brewing/selling, tobacco etc also pushed away lots of folks. They may have supported or been neutral towards kharkus, but the Taliban like behavior of some kharkus definitely pushed them away. 

Edited by KhoonKaBadlaKhoon
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2 hours ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

Not sure why he left, perhaps just had an opportunity to leave and he took it? But I have read he was sending money from USA back to Punjab. Although we cant say that's specifically why he left.

 

As for mistakes made? Where to even start, that's a difficult question. Infighting, letting in miscreants, different groups having different goals, lack of proper structure in many cases. Some may not want to hear this, but the few kharkus who tried to forcibly stop alcohol brewing/selling, tobacco etc also pushed away lots of folks. They may have supported or been neutral towards kharkus, but the Taliban like behavior of some kharkus definitely pushed them away. 

Cheers brother for replying, I was hoping you would provide an input as I can see from your previous posts you know the score regarding what was reality during the Sangaarsh as opposed to some of the fairy tale stories that are in circulation. I agree fully that actions by some kharkoos which was interpreted as 'taliban' style behaviour pushed a lot of common folk away, while as much as I rate Gurnek Singh Neka and co for popping Chamkila off, it did cause the Sangaarsh to be pushed back. Regarding Dhanna Singh, I think whilst it is easy for mans like me to sit in my own luxury Khalistan aka the UK and diss him, his kurbani is still massive considering he did what he did in his youth which is more than what most 'Khalistanis' particularly in the disapora have achieved. 

In regards to my opening post, can you shed light on the roles of individuals such as Zaffarwal, Rode, Bittu and Mann to who their seems to be a lot of clouds over? Personally I still rate all those mentioned apart from Rode (to all readers - do not turn this into an argument). Also brother, any information on those who switched sides and had top Singhs such as Baba Manochahal, Gurjant Singh Budhsinghwala, General Labh Singh etc killed?

Thanks in advance brother.

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11 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I believe there's room for both for the sake of conversation and functional purposes, but ultimately with an emphasis on our language. It harks back to something that's dawned on me quite recently, whereby those cultures and civilisations that don't care for their own tongue or are forced into a situation where those people are forced to abandon their language, well those groups are living on borrowed time. All the non-western countries in the East such as the Japanese and the Chinese are immensely aware and proud (in a good way) of the significance of their respective languages being central to their existence. That comes from having your own country and having a semblance of control over the direction of the future and prosperity of your people. Sadly we don't have such options. The best we can do is learn Punjabi and pass it on to our future generations; what we must not allow to happen is to let Punjabi become an irrelevant and useless language.

Don't go so far. 

You only hv to look at indian states like Maharashtra whose population swears by its language Marathi. 

Its impossible to see a Marathi speaking to a Marathi in anything other than Marathi. Sometimes they even force other newcomers to their state to learn Marathi. 

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5 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Don't go so far. 

You only hv to look at indian states like Maharashtra whose population swears by its language Marathi. 

Its impossible to see a Marathi speaking to a Marathi in anything other than Marathi. Sometimes they even force other newcomers to their state to learn Marathi. 

Bro no disrespect and whilst I respect your posts, its not the answers I am looking for or the discussion that I was looking at creating.

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25 minutes ago, Prokharkoo84 said:

Bro no disrespect and whilst I respect your posts, its not the answers I am looking for or the discussion that I was looking at creating.

Wat disrespectful?  M just pointing out an example. Marathi kids aren't like ours who would speak Hindi and ditch their mother tongue 

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7 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Wat disrespectful?  M just pointing out an example. Marathi kids aren't like ours who would speak Hindi and ditch their mother tongue 

I mean Paji that your posts are not answering the questions I am looking for. Re-read my opening post and if you can contribute to that then please do, if not then please start your own topic up. Fateh.

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A few points come to mind.

  1. The 'social reformist' (samaj sudhaar) activities carried out by the Kharkoos were unnecessary and gave adverse effects to their objective of attaining a sovereign state. These include:
    * forcing women (including news anchors) to wear dupattas
    * threatening and murdering artists (even if they were vulgar like Chamkila)
    * banning the sale of alcohol, tobacco and meat, attacking liquor vendors, barbers, butchers, ...
    * disallowing music at weddings
    * banning saris, cosmetics for women, ...

    Just like any other action it did have positive sides too, the simple marriage ceremonies came with a ban on dowries but enforcing a 'moral code' is not the Sikh way and it alienated not only the non Sikhs but also the 'moderate' Sikhs. 
  2. There was an immense amount of infighting among the kharkoos due to various reasons, including theological, personal and territorial disputes. The DDT and AKJ had at times taken to violent ways to enforce their viewpoints during the movement. Sikhs need to learn to put personal differences away and unite against a common enemy as was shown historically by the Misls.
  3. The intentional targeting of Hindus and families of police officials. While a lot of killings of Hindus were done by the govt under false flag operations to malign the Kharkoo movement, one cannot deny that several Sikhs were deliberately targeting Hindus and the families of police officials. Collateral damage is likely during guerilla warfare but these kind of acts are against our Sikh ideology, no matter what the circumstances are. 

 

 

Edited by HarfunMaula
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13 minutes ago, HarfunMaula said:

A few points come to mind.

  1. The 'social reformist' (samaj sudhaar) activities carried out by the Kharkoos were unnecessary and gave adverse effects to their objective of attaining a sovereign state. These include:
    * forcing women (including news anchors) to wear dupattas
    * threatening and murdering artists (even if they were vulgar like Chamkila)
    * banning the sale of alcohol, tobacco and meat, attacking liquor vendors, barbers, butchers, ...
    * disallowing music at weddings

    Just like any other action it did have positive sides too, the simple marriage ceremonies came with a ban on dowries but enforcing a 'moral code' is not the Sikh way and it alienated not only the non Sikhs but also the 'moderate' Sikhs. 
  2. There was an immense amount of infighting among the kharkoos due to various reasons, including theological, personal and territorial disputes. The DDT and AKJ had at times taken to violent ways to enforce their viewpoints during the movement. Sikhs need to learn to put personal differences away and unite against a common enemy as was shown historically by the Misls.
  3. The intentional targeting of Hindus and families of police officials. While a lot of killings of Hindus were done by the govt under false flag operations to malign the Kharkoo movement, one cannot deny that several Sikhs were deliberately targeting Hindus and the families of police officials. Collateral damage is likely during guerilla warfare but these kind of acts are against our Sikh ideology, no matter what the circumstances are. 

 

 

 

:shock

So there should be music at weddings? And alcohol? And women should let their hair down?

Weddings should be the utmost simplistic. It would only alienate those who live in a bubble of rituals and traditions and cant let go. 

We today cannot sit here and say 'it should have been like this'. The people involved are the only ones who really knew how it was. It is easy for us to sit and analyze it all 30 years later. The singhs had to act quick. They made the right decisions for that time.

Imagine if a thief came to your house and killed your family and tried to stab you. God forbid. What would you do? You would do what you think is best at the time. Maybe you would kill the thief i dont know. Would it be right for me to say 'you could have considered.... this and that'. No of course not. You had to act.

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31 minutes ago, JS79 said:

 

:shock

So there should be music at weddings? And alcohol? And women should let their hair down?

Weddings should be the utmost simplistic. It would only alienate those who live in a bubble of rituals and traditions and cant let go. 

We today cannot sit here and say 'it should have been like this'. The people involved are the only ones who really knew how it was. It is easy for us to sit and analyze it all 30 years later. The singhs had to act quick. They made the right decisions for that time.

Imagine if a thief came to your house and killed your family and tried to stab you. God forbid. What would you do? You would do what you think is best at the time. Maybe you would kill the thief i dont know. Would it be right for me to say 'you could have considered.... this and that'. No of course not. You had to act.

You may not want it, but vast majority of Punjabis did/do want music. Women not being allowed to put their hair down? Once again, vast majority of women aren't going to wear a pagg or chunni 24/7. These silly rules was a major factor people turned their backs on kharkus. 

And it is our responsibility to analyze what happened, it'd be a shame if we didn't point out the pros and cons. This is how you learn. And there's nothing wrong with saying they made mistakes. 

Edited by KhoonKaBadlaKhoon
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