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Lessons to be learnt from the Khalistan Movement


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1 hour ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

I don't think Parmar was ever part of AKJ. I think mostly they beefed because one was primarily overseas, while other was on front lines. Ego kicks in. People deny it, but I'm VERY sure Sukhdev Babbar and Sant Ji had conflict too. 

Vaarchiree is most likely still out there in the same pind.

I wouldn't ever oppose Deepa over him being popular with ladies, not saying you're doing that, respect is respect. He was Doab da sher.

You're right bro, he still shows love, I just feel like something is off though. 

 

I wouldnt ever disrespect any of the Kharkoos, no matter what their personal lifestyle was like. None of us are angels and its easy to pick faults in the lads who gave everything, particularly 20 odd years later. 

 

I agree that ego would have been an issue, its like putting 5 lads together now and there is also gona be confilict, regardless of how spirtual each claims to be. 

 It is funny you say something seems off with Valtoha, I get that impression aswell but still gotta rate the dude in his hey day. 

 

Bro do you know much about Harjinder Singh Para's shaheedi?

45 minutes ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

I agree too, Virsa Singh was frontline in his days. Perhaps we are just paranoid.

 

And, no, nothing bro. I don't think he was set up at all.

Parmar Singh is real controversial too, people say he was an agent etc. But, I've met and seen his kids, the local Khalistan community loves them. If he was an agent, I believe they'd be outcasted by them. Other factors too I wont mention.

 

Not sure if I have said this, but after speaking with people who followed and lived side by side with the movement. Mann Saab was the one who started the flow of the weapons to Singh's at darbar sahib. While he worked as a high ranking cop.

Regarding Virsa Singh Valtoha, he mentions in his interview on YouTube about how many cases he was implicated in along with how dangerous the Sarkar considered him to be. If he wasnt locked up during the Sangaarsh he would probs have been killed. He seems to get slated a lot cause of his link with Badal, but other such as Manjit Singh (Shaheed Bhai Amrik Singhs bro) doesnt get much flack.

 

Para - story i have heard is he was in hospital after getting injured, and here when the CRPF were coming to get him, he took cyanide. The Canadian lot were top lads, gotta rate them bigtime leaving Canada and going Punjab. Do you know anything about the Kabaddi guy Bagri who went with them? He is the big Singh in a white vest in the video of the Singhs training in Pakistan.

 

Mann - wow thats something I have never heard before! I always thought he join the Sangaarsh as a politician quite a while after Bluestar 84, I didnt know he was linked to Sant Ji etc.

 

Parmar - I always rated him personally, but from what I have heard and been told is that he was very set in his ways and was very hot headed, to the point where he was shouting out at a Gurdwara in Canada that he was going to stand on the run way with a rocket launcher and take an Air India flight out. I have heard people accuse him of being an agent... but why was this? He was linked with Lakhbir Singh Rode?

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The reason we are talking about "lessons to be learnt from Khalistan movement" is because Sikhs lost (yes it is obvious and everybody here knows this), if we would have won there would have been "no lesson"  even though some things were done wrong, but I will say, those were symptoms and not the real reason/disease for the Khalistan movement to fail.  Let me explain:  As many of you know, there was a time in late 80s when it seems like Khalistan was going to become a reality, in fact, Indian PM Chander Shaker was ready to make a deal, which was close to demand of Khalistan. However, one external reason (not really external, but out of Sikh control) that killed everything was building a wall between India Punjab and Pakistan Punjab! This wall is the sole reason for the Khalistan movement to fail.

Israel provided this information to India that unless India build a wall, insurgency will never end, and sooner or later Khalistan will come into existence.  As you know, Israel is also surviving because of the wall between palestinian and Israel land.  Of course, Banazir providing the names of Sikh freedom fighters to Indian intelligence didn't help either. Additionally, Pakistan never really wanted to help Sikhs with regard to Khalistan they just wanted Sikhs to create violence in India.

Insurgency is still going on in Kashmir because India cannot build a wall there for many reasons, and unfortunately kashmiri muslims don't know how to fight, if Sikhs were in that area Khalistan would have come into existence.  Anyway, I digress, what I am trying to say is that in late 80s many Sikh freedom fighters realized that Khalistan might not become a reality.  Just to clarify, it is not that they explicitly thought about that, but all the news was very demoralizing (killing of leaders of Sikh movement everyday with impunity).  That is when social reforms, some non justified killing, some wrong deals were made.  Yes, we can learn from them, but in the end we lost for different reason.  I will address some other issues later.

 

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26 minutes ago, acsap said:

The reason we are talking about "lessons to be learnt from Khalistan movement" is because Sikhs lost (yes it is obvious and everybody here knows this), if we would have won there would have been "no lesson"  even though some things were done wrong, but I will say, those were symptoms and not the real reason/disease for the Khalistan movement to fail.  Let me explain:  As many of you know, there was a time in late 80s when it seems like Khalistan was going to become a reality, in fact, Indian PM Chander Shaker was ready to make a deal, which was close to demand of Khalistan. However, one external reason (not really external, but out of Sikh control) that killed everything was building a wall between India Punjab and Pakistan Punjab! This wall is the sole reason for the Khalistan movement to fail.

Israel provided this information to India that unless India build a wall, insurgency will never end, and sooner or later Khalistan will come into existence.  As you know, Israel is also surviving because of the wall between palestinian and Israel land.  Of course, Banazir providing the names of Sikh freedom fighters to Indian intelligence didn't help either. Additionally, Pakistan never really wanted to help Sikhs with regard to Khalistan they just wanted Sikhs to create violence in India.

Insurgency is still going on in Kashmir because India cannot build a wall there for many reasons, and unfortunately kashmiri muslims don't know how to fight, if Sikhs were in that area Khalistan would have come into existence.  Anyway, I digress, what I am trying to say is that in late 80s many Sikh freedom fighters realized that Khalistan might not become a reality.  Just to clarify, it is not that they explicitly thought about that, but all the news was very demoralizing (killing of leaders of Sikh movement everyday with impunity).  That is when social reforms, some non justified killing, some wrong deals were made.  Yes, we can learn from them, but in the end we lost for different reason.  I will address some other issues later.

 

Very good post bro but in regards to losing, I get your side but ultimately we won... Prior to 84 and post 84 look at the shift in change of people who came in touch with Sikhi again, the spirit of the Khalistanis gave the Sikhs their Anakh back and ultimately bro, people like myself and many more most likely wouldn't have an interest in Sikhi if it wasnt due to the Baba Deep Singh,  Sukha Singhs and  Mehtab Singhs of the 80s and 90s

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3 hours ago, Prokharkoo84 said:

Very good post bro but in regards to losing, I get your side but ultimately we won... Prior to 84 and post 84 look at the shift in change of people who came in touch with Sikhi again, the spirit of the Khalistanis gave the Sikhs their Anakh back and ultimately bro, people like myself and many more most likely wouldn't have an interest in Sikhi if it wasnt due to the Baba Deep Singh,  Sukha Singhs and  Mehtab Singhs of the 80s and 90s

As a Sikh, I think we just lost some battles, and in the end we will win the WAR (it might take some time, but we will win)! However, that being said, I don't agree with you.  Yes, Khalistan movement produced some of the great Sikh Shaheeds of all times, and as you, we all are proud of that. You are right, that it brings lot of Anakh/Pride to Sikhs in diaspora and in some places in Punjab.  Still, we cannot deny the fact that we lost, and Hindus make fun of us and remind us that they have killed the "Sikh Spirit".  Airport in Delhi is named after Indira, that is akin to naming airport after Massa Ranghar, and one big road in Punjab is named after Jagat Narain.  Just a year ago, the DGP of punjab was Saini who killed more innocent Sikhs and raped Sikhs mothers, daughters, and sister than anybody else, even present DGP has innocent Sikh bloods on his hand.  Nobody really got punished for Sikh Genocide in Delhi and other parts of India, I personally heard one hindu saying that it seems like you Sikhs have forgot Delhi 84.  Many Sikhs who fought against India are still in jail, you get the picture.

The point I am trying to make is that because of these past and present injustices, many Sikhs (especially in India) feel no pride and that is reason for the following things:

Less and less Sikhs are keeping turban/kesh 

Drug use among Sikhs. Look at any kaum who has lost they have issues with drugs (native americans, black, etc).

Fighting about meat, Dasam Granth, Raag malla, etc.  At this point most Sikhs will fight on superficial reasons instead of realizing we are slaves in Hindu India.  Hindus are enjoying these stupid Sikh fights.

Anyway, I am realizing that I am taking this thread on a different tangent, and I will stop here.  Maybe one day when I have more time, and I will start a new topic on this issue.

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On 03/08/2017 at 5:51 PM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Perhaps its because of this tiny minority alone that panth has survived so far.

Reminds me of story of Abraham and the town of sinners. God said "I am gonna destroy this city full of human trash and sinners",

Abraham being a pious man interceded and said "God If I find just one man righteous in this city , then ?"

God said "I will spare the city for sake of that one man".

Same is with panth. Most of us are such lost sheep . Some of our boys cut their hair and ditched dastars, Others (like me) keep kes and turban but trim their beards , others keep all hair but are lost in alcohol and YoYo.

Its that tiny minority of gursikhs saving us.

Referendum 2020 is not possible I believe. Punjab still lives in india and for referendum to work , Indian govt would have to accept the viability of referendum , like how UK did to scotland when they talked abt breaking from UK. 

But india can't even tolerate 2020 posters , forget abt actually letting it happen. Even if 60% punjab voted in favor of independent sikh state, India can and will still usher in army again to prevent it from happening. 

This is about handcuffing us 

Next level of attack and for which we too are largely responsible is drastic demographic change . Official population of sikhs fell from 61% in 2001 to 57% in 2011 . 

With the continuous inflow of hindu migrants from UP and bihar in punjab , the punjab as we knew it is being lost . Mainu ehi fikar haigi :/

My aim is not to spend pessimism in this forum. But I just want all of sikhs to open our eyes and smell the coffee.

Punjabi culture itself is changing to a more hindu tint and thats inevitable because after all culture is nothing but about people. As are people, so shall be culture. The other day my mom was telling me punjabi sikh girls eloping with bhaiyye hindu munde in punjab.

They came as labourers for farm work, doesn't mean they will remain labourers. Soon they will be a formidable force in electorate . 

Hindus are already whining that punjab has never had a hindu CM . It is very clear what their intentions are. Political dominance of punjab by hindus would be ultimate slap on sikhs and their roaring. It will tell them who calls the shot.

So forget about khalistan for the mo(ve)ment , lets first focus on saving sikh demography in punjab.

Solutions are simple, I will point it out again, but apne in this forum are too lazy to spread it enmasse in sikh community

1) Outbreed the hindus beyond oblivion . I will give to the muslims. Honestly sometimes I feel we're just jealous of them for their immense demographic success. Even 2 kids will not help IMHO. We need atleast 3 kids in each household

2) Stop mass immigration of sikhs outside punjab . Honestly this is quite foolish . 

3) Raise your kids in a gursikhi way . Let gurudware make sikhi school for kids in vacations mandatory or atleast highly encouraging.

If we followed just point 1, hindus will be jawdroppingly stunned . 

I remember a hindu sanghi tell me few days back how sikhs have the lowest birth ratio in india . 

For the sikhs who say I live in la-la land about right-wing hindus dominating punjab, only has to go to youtube and do a basic search on following keywords : "shiv sena punjab", "bajrang dal punjab"  .

Their dominance in punjab is increasing day by day .

So let me just get this right you propose that for sikhi to prosper Sikhs in the panjab should simply have more children... And outbreed Hindus? Lol is this a joke? You clearly are only interested in identity politics and not gurmat.. Our Gurus taught us that through our own lives, behaviour and good deeds other people would develop a interest in gurmat.. Your approach is simply a strategic approach. 

Stop migration out of panjab! So whilst you have the luxury of living abroad you would deny others.. Moreover you would like to see the implementation of draconian stalinist laws 

Make sikhi school mandatory.. Instead of demonstrating the beauty of gurmat through the way we live we should indoctrinate children? 

Wow

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12 hours ago, acsap said:

As a Sikh, I think we just lost some battles, and in the end we will win the WAR (it might take some time, but we will win)! However, that being said, I don't agree with you.  Yes, Khalistan movement produced some of the great Sikh Shaheeds of all times, and as you, we all are proud of that. You are right, that it brings lot of Anakh/Pride to Sikhs in diaspora and in some places in Punjab.  Still, we cannot deny the fact that we lost, and Hindus make fun of us and remind us that they have killed the "Sikh Spirit".  Airport in Delhi is named after Indira, that is akin to naming airport after Massa Ranghar, and one big road in Punjab is named after Jagat Narain.  Just a year ago, the DGP of punjab was Saini who killed more innocent Sikhs and raped Sikhs mothers, daughters, and sister than anybody else, even present DGP has innocent Sikh bloods on his hand.  Nobody really got punished for Sikh Genocide in Delhi and other parts of India, I personally heard one hindu saying that it seems like you Sikhs have forgot Delhi 84.  Many Sikhs who fought against India are still in jail, you get the picture.

The point I am trying to make is that because of these past and present injustices, many Sikhs (especially in India) feel no pride and that is reason for the following things:

Less and less Sikhs are keeping turban/kesh 

Drug use among Sikhs. Look at any kaum who has lost they have issues with drugs (native americans, black, etc).

Fighting about meat, Dasam Granth, Raag malla, etc.  At this point most Sikhs will fight on superficial reasons instead of realizing we are slaves in Hindu India.  Hindus are enjoying these stupid Sikh fights.

Anyway, I am realizing that I am taking this thread on a different tangent, and I will stop here.  Maybe one day when I have more time, and I will start a new topic on this issue.

I agree to an extent bro, the aftermatch of the Sangaarsh is evident... lack of leadership, drugs, lack of kesh, fighting between jathas, maryada issues, increase in pakhandi babeh etc.

From what I know, its appears that all the Sangaarsh did was delay the inevitable anyway, if you look at the timeline, while the Sangaarsh was going on, the amount of guys who did kesh kattal in UK, Canada etc was massive. Sharab has always been an issue in our community, while the modernisation of 'Sikhs' is in line with the rest of the world. The beef between Sikh jathebandis once again is nothing new, although we as a Kaum do appear to be divided more than ever, particularly as our top institutions such as Taksal and Nihangs seem to have lost their way from previous years (not a cuss, just an observation - correct me if I am wrong).

Only Guru Ji knows when we as a Kaum will unite...

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On 06/08/2017 at 11:13 PM, JS79 said:

Oh hello again chatanga!!

Lionhearts? Like the ones who did phulla di barkha on the killers? You mean the gunde who took an innocent life. You say lionheart?

 

I'm talking about those who talk the walk but soil themselves when it comes to the walk. Or the run actually. There was definitely running to the police car.

 

On 07/08/2017 at 9:52 AM, Prokharkoo84 said:

 

Rode - another massive grey area, adored by his click and hated badly by others. I do know he owns the building in Jalandhar that was used for the Awaz E Quom paper I believe, this property is now worth millions.

Zaffarwal - people cuss him, but the guy was isolated and ended up in Switzerland, he ran out of options. But does anyone know what his issues with Baba Manochahal were?

Bittu - I have heard the rumour he was responsible for the Shaheedi of Gurjant Singh Budhsinghwala too, as he set the meeting up in Model Town Ludhiana? Also I have heard he was responsible for General Labh Singh too? Either way, hes another one who has done a lot of jail and gave his jawani for the Sangaarsh.

Does anyone know who was responsible for Sukhdev Singh Babbar's Shaheedi? Was it due Gurdeep Singh Sivia getting picked up?

 

All these grey areas of the Sangaarsh need to be brought up, a lot of lessons to be learnt here and I personally rather have an educated and informed view of what happened rather than look back with rose tinted glasses.

 

 

Bhai Jasvir Singh Rode has been discussed many times here.

Zafarwal knew a long time before the others that the movement was failing badly. The reason was the ISI were using the armed movement for their own goals. Zafarwal refused to target Hindus under ISI orders which is why they stopped arms sales to his group. Yes - arms sales - arms that they gave free to the Kashmiris were sold to the Sikhs.

Bittu is a clever guy, very talented but he dropped a clanger over the 1992 elections. This was the main reason for congress govt coming in and destroying Khalistan movement.

Sivia - a UK national was arrested by ravan sena aka Panjab police. Shortly after his arrest major BK men were arrested or killed. He has denied given the police any info.

 

Bhai Baljit Singh wrote several books on the sangrash one of which was called "ik khooni dahaka" "A bloody decade".

 

I read it a long time ago. Try reading that for more info.

 

On 07/08/2017 at 0:10 PM, Prokharkoo84 said:

 

Quote of the day - Baba Manochahal was THE ultimate Singh - 10000%!!!

 

Manochahal was accused of making his own fiefdom in Tarntaran by the other leaders. But he was politically aware and was fully supporting Maan Akali Dal in 1992 elections before other kharkhoo groups enforced a boycott on the participation in elections. I remember talking about this boycott to a UK MP. He told me that boycotting elections was grave mistake.

 

On 07/08/2017 at 0:17 PM, Prokharkoo84 said:

Valtoha - i was watching an interview of his on Youtube, whilst yeah could say he sold out, he still semms to have that pyar for Sant Ji. He is another one that its easy for us to cuss sat in our homes in the UK Canada etc, but he did a lot in his jawani aswell. 

 

Vadala was one of the main AISSF guys. I dont know whether other know this, but not all AISSF people supported Khalistan as a separate country. Vadala was one of those, but he was very much involved upto around late 1980s I think.

 

On 07/08/2017 at 2:43 PM, acsap said:

Not a single thing from that deal (deal between Rajiv and Longowal) was implemented, so tell me how was this deal good for Sikhs. 

 

gandhi dismissed the deal on longoawal death. it was so convenient for him.

 

On 07/08/2017 at 2:46 PM, Prokharkoo84 said:

 

Regarding Virsa Singh Valtoha, he mentions in his interview on YouTube about how many cases he was implicated in along with how dangerous the Sarkar considered him to be. If he wasnt locked up during the Sangaarsh he would probs have been killed. He seems to get slated a lot cause of his link with Badal, but other such as Manjit Singh (Shaheed Bhai Amrik Singhs bro) doesnt get much flack.

Mann - wow thats something I have never heard before! I always thought he join the Sangaarsh as a politician quite a while after Bluestar 84, I didnt know he was linked to Sant Ji etc.

 

Yes Bhai Manjit Singh sided with badal Dal and has achieved nothing of not for the Panth. Harnam Singh sided with Badal and has achieved many things. People forget very quickly.  But the worst in my opinion was Harminder Singh Gill (another AISSF main guy who didnt beleive in Khalistan) who went over to the Congress party on the offer of a ticket for election. he survived 1984 and spent time in jail as well. Yet he went to the congress party in order to further his political career.

 

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Why were Sikhs of the 1700s persecuted? Why were Sikhs of 80s persecuted did the root cause and you will see both timelines are two different things and in no way can be compared with each other I feel sick at you even making me read such a vile statement. There is a bit in prachin panth Parkash which mentions how the singhs could not even buy from various towns products and resources had you read that? Could te Sikhs walk down the road and buy daal flour and other things? You make me sick. 

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5 hours ago, chatanga said:

 

 

Sivia - a UK national was arrested by ravan sena aka Panjab police. Shortly after his arrest major BK men were arrested or killed. He has denied given the police any info.

 

Manochahal was accused of making his own fiefdom in Tarntaran by the other leaders. But he was politically aware and was fully supporting Maan Akali Dal in 1992 elections before other kharkhoo groups enforced a boycott on the participation in elections. I remember talking about this boycott to a UK MP. He told me that boycotting elections was grave mistake.

Interesting, never knew that bit about Zaffarwal.

 

What do you think of Sukhdev Singh Babbar staying in a nice khoti in Patiala? A lot of people say it was a clever disguise of hiding in plain view. I'm not saying that's B.S and that he was living there off of the Panth. But I've always been curious what people generally thought of that. Any more info of that?

 

As far as I know Manochahal and BTFK were the strongest easily in Tarn Taran/majha. While most groups had to go into malwa/Doaba, they still stuck around and controlled it. Perhaps a bit jealousy from other leaders? 

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