Prokharkoo84

Lessons to be learnt from the Khalistan Movement

122 posts in this topic

WJKK WJKF! This topic I am starting is not to do nindiyah, to fight with anyone or cause anyone disrespect. I am starting this purely due to my personal interest in the Khalistan Movement. Our Shaheeds who spilt blood will be forever remembered, while our brothers in jails and the familes who lost everything are in constantly in my thoughts. Nowadays the movement kind of gets glorified in the UK, I see a lot of people wear tshirts of certain Shaheed Singhs for fashion, image, repping a jathebandi or just to give it large. Whilst we are all aware of certain individuals who were the enemy e.g. indira, rajiv, beantah, gobind ram, gill and co, I would like to know more about those who were classed as our 'own' and sold the movement out. A LOT of lessons need to be learnt here, while I think this needs to be equally be exposed as much as the stories of our brave Shaheed brothers. Like I said before, this topic is not to cause inter-jatha beef, or for people to argue, lets have a discussion where anyone who has been mentioned as a sell out, can be justified for being one too. The kind of people I am interested in are the roles of Wassan Singh Zaffarwal (who I personally think made a massive kurbani prior to surrendering), Mokham Singh, Jasbir Singh Rode, the role of Simranjeet Singh Mann who I know Baba Manochahal was not a fan of, also I would like to more about any Singhs who sold out on their own jatha which resulted in them becoming shaheed, people such as 'Vanchiri' who had Baba Manochahal done, the guy who had Deepa Herawala done etc.

 

Lastly,  would be informative to hear views about the ISYF and the stories of them being corrupted and using funds for personal gain. 

All replies will be appreciated and I look forward to learning more and not arguing with anyone. This topic is for educational purposes only so that we can learn from the mistakes of our elders. A lot of these stories will soon never come to light due to people that know the truth getting older etc.  P.S Apologies I know this topic has been touched on before and I have read majority of those before. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a sympathetic outsiders critical perspective of the movement I posted here a few years ago:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

This is a sympathetic outsiders critical perspective of the movement I posted here a few years ago:

 

 

Thanks for replying brother. I have read this book and it is very good. Do you know much about Dhanna Singh from Panthic Commitee and why he left after Sarbat Khalsa and what his role was when he got to the USA?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You need friends in the media and the press, moreso now than back then. The fighters do their thing on the battlefield, but their non-combat brothers and sisters in arms need to be embedded in all major outlets in order to combat the other side's propaganda. We only have to flick through a a couple of newspapers to realise how the exact same act committed by an individual is interpreted and presented to the masses in a manner dependent on the political and ideological direction of each publication. 

We don't have that luxury. Any Sikh journalists or writers with a profile are either brainwashed by our opposition, or are more than pleased to dance to the tune of their paymasters, even if that means selling out your own people for personal gain. 

 It is a huge problem that unfortunately strikes at the heart of something more deeper than desire or motivation. I actually believe we as a people are fundamentally untrustworthy, unreliable, and easily bought, aside from a tiny minority for whom honour, integrity, and loyalty are non-negotiable.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

This is a sympathetic outsiders critical perspective of the movement I posted here a few years ago:

 

 

Thanks for replying brother. I have read this book and it is very good. Do you know much about Dhanna Singh from Panthic Commitee and why he left after Sarbat Khalsa and what his role was when he got to the USA?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every year thousands of Sikhs gather together in London UK to commemorate the 1984 Sikh genocide. In Punjab this isn't allowed by the police.

Edited by Dsinghdp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Dsinghdp said:

Every year thousands of Sikhs gather together in London UK to commerate the 1984 Sikh genocide. In Punjab this isn't allowed by the police.

This is good but has now become more of a fun day out in the sunshine. From the stories I have heard about the first rally in 1984, when there was lot of anger compared to now is a lot of difference. Another issue, this even is now more about UK based politicians than the actual sangaarsh on the main stage, while none of the resolutions passed here make any difference in Punjab. Dont get me wrong, the remembrance is good and needs to continue, just needs to be a lot more applicable to ground level Punjab.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

During the Khalistan movement, Hindus were terrorised in Punjab. Some 400 were murdered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Dsinghdp said:

During the Khalistan movement, Hindus were terrorised in Punjab. Some 400 were murdered.

Any war is going to have casualties on both side. The Hindus you mention, maybe some of them needed to be eliminated? Just like the Sikhs were in the eyes of the GOI? Its a 2 way thing but people quick to point out murdered hindus, what about the innocent Sikh Sangat that was at the Darbar Sahib during Bluestar? Or what about the innocent college/pind dhe mundeh that were picked up and killed for no reason?

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Prokharkoo84 said:

This is good but has now become more of a fun day out in the sunshine. From the stories I have heard about the first rally in 1984, when there was lot of anger compared to now is a lot of difference. 

I feel the reason for this the majority of the attendees only remember 1984 whenever the month of June arrives. They only remember Sant Ji when there is a barsi or protest. For the rest of the year most if us are pretty asleep.

Gradually yes it has become just a family day out. We get excited to do a few jakareh at the protest and then what do we do to try and achieve what sangarsh that taksal started. How do we tackle pakhandvaad. Gurbachana did beadbi and everything started as a result it continued and became a movement. How do we tackle todays pakhand.

Also, sant ji listed 17 matte for anandpur da matta. How are we trying to achieve that? Sant ji wanted sikhs to have equal rights. Sant ji gave shaheedi for that! We sikhs cannot even give fellow sikhs equal right. Our matteh have become ways to stop gurmat parchar. We have a lot of work to do to impress sant ji. We bend over backwards to stop gurmat yet what about the reason sant ji gave shaheedi. We say we respect sant ji but the true way of respecting is by trying to lead a life that they would approve. Standing up against injustice and evil. Whoever it may be that is causing it. 

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Dsinghdp said:

During the Khalistan movement, Hindus were terrorised in Punjab. Some 400 were murdered.

Hello there??

Are you even a singh??

sant jarnail singh ji was shot. Guru maharaj were shot. Akal takht was destroyed. Countless gursikhs gave shaheedi. Singhs were burnt by pouring oil and setting fire. children were murdered. Beadbi was done of maharaj. Have you no idea what even happened? The hindu gov attacked the darbar sahib. The sarovar was full of blood. There are still marks of bullets in the walls. Waheguru. 

 

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Khalistan Movement is a grey area, The basic demand of the Sikh majority was  for Punjabi to be the official language of Punjab and rightfully so. But the Indian govt denied the Punjabi public this basic  right. My fellow Punjabi Hindu's (I am Punjabi Hindu but I fellow Sikhism  more closely and I am Punjabi 1st I shall explain my situation  in detail later on   ) supported  the Indian govt and stated that there language  is Hindi which quite frankly is <banned word filter activated> . If they had supported Punjabi language movement this would never have been Sikh vs Hindu issue it would have been a Punjabi vs Indian govt issue and I am sure this would have put more pressure on the Indian govt to make Punjabi the official state language of Punjab instead of spitting Punjab into 3  states. 

All this dispute lead to the Indian govt shutting off Punjab  and not meeting the basic demands of the Sikh's whom did not even ask for a separate state and wished to remain  in India at the time . Indira Gandhi who was power hungry who not willing to negotiate with Janrnail Singh Bhindranwale who took arms at the Harmandir Shaib. Again at this stage negations could have happened but instead Indira decided to send  The army in and attack the holy place when it was the day of   Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji,The temple was packed and as result of the attack many, many  innocent people lost there lives. If Indira wanted to killed and capture the militants they  could have given enough warning and  not attacked the temple on such a holy day to ensure no innocent lives were not lost., The timing and manner of the attack makes it an  attack on the Sikh Faith, It was a terrorist attack ordered by Indira Gandhi .

There were people who offered to arrest Janrnail Singh Bhindranwale who should have been given a fair trail. THERE WAS NO NEED TO ATTACK THE  HARMANDIR SHAIB and was worst is the British had part to play in this  . This is where the Khalistan movement gained full momentum .

 

Indira Gandhi had to pay for her action one way or the other. you cannot commit a sin and get away with it. I only wish the Indian public could have seen this instead of thinking Indira was saint. the whole 1984 riots were barbaric and it was not only just a sad day for India but humanity as whole. Yes Hindu's were killed in Punjab aswell but the crimes committed by then Indian govt were far greater. 

Back to present day I can fully understand  the angry so Sikhs and the fact the people like Jagish Tyler have not been brought to justice I fully support Sikhs on this matter. As for Khalistan I am still secular pro and I would want full justice to be done for Sikhs and Punjab given the support its needs. I would like a new Indian govt who is pro secular and not a Hindu/RSS party  but if that cannot happen and Indian system cannot change then Khalistan should happen.   

 

 

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

 It is a huge problem that unfortunately strikes at the heart of something more deeper than desire or motivation. I actually believe we as a people are fundamentally untrustworthy, unreliable, and easily bought, aside from a tiny minority for whom honour, integrity, and loyalty are non-negotiable.

Perhaps its because of this tiny minority alone that panth has survived so far.

Reminds me of story of Abraham and the town of sinners. God said "I am gonna destroy this city full of human trash and sinners",

Abraham being a pious man interceded and said "God If I find just one man righteous in this city , then ?"

God said "I will spare the city for sake of that one man".

Same is with panth. Most of us are such lost sheep . Some of our boys cut their hair and ditched dastars, Others (like me) keep kes and turban but trim their beards , others keep all hair but are lost in alcohol and YoYo.

Its that tiny minority of gursikhs saving us.

Referendum 2020 is not possible I believe. Punjab still lives in india and for referendum to work , Indian govt would have to accept the viability of referendum , like how UK did to scotland when they talked abt breaking from UK. 

But india can't even tolerate 2020 posters , forget abt actually letting it happen. Even if 60% punjab voted in favor of independent sikh state, India can and will still usher in army again to prevent it from happening. 

This is about handcuffing us 

Next level of attack and for which we too are largely responsible is drastic demographic change . Official population of sikhs fell from 61% in 2001 to 57% in 2011 . 

With the continuous inflow of hindu migrants from UP and bihar in punjab , the punjab as we knew it is being lost . Mainu ehi fikar haigi :/

My aim is not to spend pessimism in this forum. But I just want all of sikhs to open our eyes and smell the coffee.

Punjabi culture itself is changing to a more hindu tint and thats inevitable because after all culture is nothing but about people. As are people, so shall be culture. The other day my mom was telling me punjabi sikh girls eloping with bhaiyye hindu munde in punjab.

They came as labourers for farm work, doesn't mean they will remain labourers. Soon they will be a formidable force in electorate . 

Hindus are already whining that punjab has never had a hindu CM . It is very clear what their intentions are. Political dominance of punjab by hindus would be ultimate slap on sikhs and their roaring. It will tell them who calls the shot.

So forget about khalistan for the mo(ve)ment , lets first focus on saving sikh demography in punjab.

Solutions are simple, I will point it out again, but apne in this forum are too lazy to spread it enmasse in sikh community

1) Outbreed the hindus beyond oblivion . I will give to the muslims. Honestly sometimes I feel we're just jealous of them for their immense demographic success. Even 2 kids will not help IMHO. We need atleast 3 kids in each household

2) Stop mass immigration of sikhs outside punjab . Honestly this is quite foolish . 

3) Raise your kids in a gursikhi way . Let gurudware make sikhi school for kids in vacations mandatory or atleast highly encouraging.

If we followed just point 1, hindus will be jawdroppingly stunned . 

I remember a hindu sanghi tell me few days back how sikhs have the lowest birth ratio in india . 

For the sikhs who say I live in la-la land about right-wing hindus dominating punjab, only has to go to youtube and do a basic search on following keywords : "shiv sena punjab", "bajrang dal punjab"  .

Their dominance in punjab is increasing day by day .

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi
4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Prokharkoo84 said:

Thanks for replying brother. I have read this book and it is very good. Do you know much about Dhanna Singh from Panthic Commitee and why he left after Sarbat Khalsa and what his role was when he got to the USA?

Did you read this article? It was written years after her Fighting for faith and nation book and offers a post-hoc perspective. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Perhaps its because of this tiny minority alone that panth has survived so far.

Spiritually speaking, perhaps. 

Anyone else feel uncomfortable conducting these conversations on a viewable public forum? It's a shame not many can read and write Punjabi on this forum. It would prevent at least the non-Sikh casual lurker from picking up on what we're expressing. Other nationalities such as the Orientals, etc, conduct their business on internet forums using their relevant languages. Something to think about.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, MisterrSingh said:

Spiritually speaking, perhaps. 

Anyone else feel uncomfortable conducting these conversations on a viewable public forum? It's a shame not many can read and write Punjabi on this forum. It would prevent at least the non-Sikh casual lurker from picking up on what we're expressing. Other nationalities such as the Orientals, etc, conduct their business on internet forums using their relevant languages. Something to think about.

I agree but what is to say that a lurker wouldn't be learnt in punjabi ?

Secondly , we seriously need to consider the "outbreed the enemy" concept . 

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I agree but what is to say that a lurker wouldn't be learnt in punjabi ?

Secondly , we seriously need to consider the "outbreed the enemy" concept . 

At least it would significantly reduce the potential for unwanted prying eyes to pore over these discussions. Now we're just serving it up on a plate for any nosey parker.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

At least it would significantly reduce the potential for unwanted prying eyes to pore over these discussions. Now we're just serving it up on a plate for any nosey parker.

 

I disagree mate  , its educational for non Sikh to understand   the issues at the heat of Sikhs from a Sikh prospective and it allows Non sikhs  to share there views and ask questions.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Punjabiwolves said:

I disagree mate  , its educational for non Sikh to understand   the issues at the heat of Sikhs from a Sikh prospective and it allows Non sikhs  to share there views and ask questions.

I believe there's room for both for the sake of conversation and functional purposes, but ultimately with an emphasis on our language. It harks back to something that's dawned on me quite recently, whereby those cultures and civilisations that don't care for their own tongue or are forced into a situation where those people are forced to abandon their language, well those groups are living on borrowed time. All the non-western countries in the East such as the Japanese and the Chinese are immensely aware and proud (in a good way) of the significance of their respective languages being central to their existence. That comes from having your own country and having a semblance of control over the direction of the future and prosperity of your people. Sadly we don't have such options. The best we can do is learn Punjabi and pass it on to our future generations; what we must not allow to happen is to let Punjabi become an irrelevant and useless language.

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

I believe there's room for both for the sake of conversation and functional purposes, but ultimately with an emphasis on our language. It harks back to something that's dawned on me quite recently, whereby those cultures and civilisations that don't care for their own tongue or are forced into a situation where those people are forced to abandon their language, well those groups are living on borrowed time. All the non-western countries in the East such as the Japanese and the Chinese are immensely aware and proud (in a good way) of the significance of their respective languages being central to their existence. That comes from having your own country and having a semblance of control over the direction of the future and prosperity of your people. Sadly we don't have such options. The best we can do is learn Punjabi and pass it on to our future generations; what we must not allow to happen is to let Punjabi become an irrelevant and useless language.

I do think this forum should stick in English; however, Punjabi,(Gurmukhi), should be heavily encouraged, so in the future, we won't be dependent on people exploiting it. Unlike the Japanese and Chinese who are independent people, (regardless of personal issues), are relatively free. Punjabis are not free, so as a whole, we have to be effective in at least being independently minded. But I don't see the problem in discussing Khalistan even if Non-Sikhs are on this forum.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Prokharkoo84 said:

Thanks for replying brother. I have read this book and it is very good. Do you know much about Dhanna Singh from Panthic Commitee and why he left after Sarbat Khalsa and what his role was when he got to the USA?

Not sure why he left, perhaps just had an opportunity to leave and he took it? But I have read he was sending money from USA back to Punjab. Although we cant say that's specifically why he left.

 

As for mistakes made? Where to even start, that's a difficult question. Infighting, letting in miscreants, different groups having different goals, lack of proper structure in many cases. Some may not want to hear this, but the few kharkus who tried to forcibly stop alcohol brewing/selling, tobacco etc also pushed away lots of folks. They may have supported or been neutral towards kharkus, but the Taliban like behavior of some kharkus definitely pushed them away. 

Edited by KhoonKaBadlaKhoon
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

Not sure why he left, perhaps just had an opportunity to leave and he took it? But I have read he was sending money from USA back to Punjab. Although we cant say that's specifically why he left.

 

As for mistakes made? Where to even start, that's a difficult question. Infighting, letting in miscreants, different groups having different goals, lack of proper structure in many cases. Some may not want to hear this, but the few kharkus who tried to forcibly stop alcohol brewing/selling, tobacco etc also pushed away lots of folks. They may have supported or been neutral towards kharkus, but the Taliban like behavior of some kharkus definitely pushed them away. 

Cheers brother for replying, I was hoping you would provide an input as I can see from your previous posts you know the score regarding what was reality during the Sangaarsh as opposed to some of the fairy tale stories that are in circulation. I agree fully that actions by some kharkoos which was interpreted as 'taliban' style behaviour pushed a lot of common folk away, while as much as I rate Gurnek Singh Neka and co for popping Chamkila off, it did cause the Sangaarsh to be pushed back. Regarding Dhanna Singh, I think whilst it is easy for mans like me to sit in my own luxury Khalistan aka the UK and diss him, his kurbani is still massive considering he did what he did in his youth which is more than what most 'Khalistanis' particularly in the disapora have achieved. 

In regards to my opening post, can you shed light on the roles of individuals such as Zaffarwal, Rode, Bittu and Mann to who their seems to be a lot of clouds over? Personally I still rate all those mentioned apart from Rode (to all readers - do not turn this into an argument). Also brother, any information on those who switched sides and had top Singhs such as Baba Manochahal, Gurjant Singh Budhsinghwala, General Labh Singh etc killed?

Thanks in advance brother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I believe there's room for both for the sake of conversation and functional purposes, but ultimately with an emphasis on our language. It harks back to something that's dawned on me quite recently, whereby those cultures and civilisations that don't care for their own tongue or are forced into a situation where those people are forced to abandon their language, well those groups are living on borrowed time. All the non-western countries in the East such as the Japanese and the Chinese are immensely aware and proud (in a good way) of the significance of their respective languages being central to their existence. That comes from having your own country and having a semblance of control over the direction of the future and prosperity of your people. Sadly we don't have such options. The best we can do is learn Punjabi and pass it on to our future generations; what we must not allow to happen is to let Punjabi become an irrelevant and useless language.

Don't go so far. 

You only hv to look at indian states like Maharashtra whose population swears by its language Marathi. 

Its impossible to see a Marathi speaking to a Marathi in anything other than Marathi. Sometimes they even force other newcomers to their state to learn Marathi. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Don't go so far. 

You only hv to look at indian states like Maharashtra whose population swears by its language Marathi. 

Its impossible to see a Marathi speaking to a Marathi in anything other than Marathi. Sometimes they even force other newcomers to their state to learn Marathi. 

Bro no disrespect and whilst I respect your posts, its not the answers I am looking for or the discussion that I was looking at creating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now