Jacfsing2

Sikhs and Saucha Sahib Pakhandis

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http://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/07/24/sikh-activists-booked-peacefully-protesting-dera-sirsa-function/

For anyone who doesn't know, Dera Saucha Sahib was a group that tried to create their own Amrit Sanchar, and their pakhandi guru dressed like Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Other things is this organization has lots of political power and has heavy control over Indian media as well as the Indian political system.

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10 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

http://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/07/24/sikh-activists-booked-peacefully-protesting-dera-sirsa-function/

For anyone who doesn't know, Dera Saucha Sahib was a group that tried to create their own Amrit Sanchar, and their pakhandi guru dressed like Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Other things is this organization has lots of political power and has heavy control over Indian media as well as the Indian political system.

The picture does not seem to indicate peaceful protest against the Naam Charcha:

Dera.jpg

It seems doubtful that the Sirsa followers created a shaded area especially for Sikh protesters and laid down carpets for them. The Sikh protesters are invading and walking around in the Sirsa followers area.

I am extremely opposed to Sikhs attempting to shut down Sirsa followers' meetings. Sikhs have no right to interfere with the normal religious practice of the Sirsa followers, just as nobody has the right to interfere with ours.

This should be condemned by all Sikhs, including at the Akal Takhat. Unfortunately, the Jathedar has no credibility among the Sikh public because of what he did in 2015.

I would like to hear if any Sikh thinks it's good or allowed for us to disrupt Sirsa meetings.

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5 hours ago, BhForce said:

I would like to hear if any Sikh thinks it's good or allowed for us to disrupt Sirsa meetings.

The way I see it, it's not very different from when Gurbachaba was doing his "prachars" against the Sikh faith. Let's not forget that Badal's Jathedar, (we shouldn't be calling that guy Akal Takht Jathedar, when Gursikhs picked Jagtar Singh Hawara to be Jathedar), was heavily allied with the Sirsa crew. Also this group has been known for specifically killing Sikh people in recent times. The way I see it is they aren't being aggressive, but they have tried to cause disturbance among our faith with their controversy. 

Also I don't think Hinduvta groups like this would have any problem disturbing our Gurdwaras.

Edited by Jacfsing2
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4 hours ago, Jacfsing2 said:

The way I see it is they aren't be aggressive, but they have tried to cause disturbance among our faith with their controversy. 

If they aren't physically committing beadbi of Guru Sahib or attacking their Sikhs, we should leave them alone. Ram Raiyas, Hindaliahs, Dhir Malias, our own Guru Sahibaan were beset by heresies and schisms from almost the beginning of Sikhi, but the only course of action they ever took against these groups was to prohibit their Sikhs from associating with them. 

Sikhs should understand better than anyone that persecuting a group only ever serves to strengthen it in the long run. Interfering with dera followers in the Punjab will only serve to make them more committed to their dehdari gurus. 

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1 minute ago, Balkaar said:

 Sikhs should understand better than anyone that persecuting a group only ever serves to strengthen it in the long run. Interfering with dera followers in the Punjab will only serve to make them more committed to their dehdari gurus. 

Exactly. In this topsy turvy world people love a victim, especially if the "aggressor" is the Goliath compared to the smaller David in relative terms. 

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Sometimes I wonder if in recent history (since the nirankari incident) have we overreacted to otherwise harmless religious functions or processions of other faiths, esp the ones that seem a spin-off of traditional sikhism ?

We need to ask this question to ourselves because if its so , then it questions our moral credibility . 

Why does dera sacha sauda chief dressing as guru sahib infuriates us so much ? why couldn't we have just ignored it. The guy mimicries every other religion. 

We ourselves were heretics to the the caste class system of hindus . And even mughals and pahadi raaje saw 10th guru sahib as a heretic . 

Why do sikhs have to brandish sword at every small incident ? it destroys credibility of kirpan as a "last resort".

"Pen is mightier than sword" 

(This is not an english quote of some anonymous author. Its jeevani of Guru Gobind Singh ji maharaj. After a lifetime of wielding both sword and pen, guru sahib destroyed aurangzeb from within by a pen . Read zafarnaama. 

We don't reach out to dalits. Parents in our community are <banned word filter activated> when it comes to religion. Its almost as if they loathe themselves to be sikhs. We don't reach out to so called neechi jaats. "Bhaiya" is still a cuss word despite 10th guru sahib being born in bhaiyya land. The woes of community continue . 

But when someone else starts a dera , because like it or not, not everyone can have faith in a guru that's inside the granth sahib, People need assurance, people need comfort words and who can give them ? In comes human gurus of punjab. 

We ourselves are to blame partly

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi
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1 hour ago, MisterrSingh said:

Exactly. In this topsy turvy world people love a victim, especially if the "aggressor" is the Goliath compared to the smaller David in relative terms. 

That is true,  The persecution of dera leaders and their followers, who, as others have pointed out, are usually suborned and supported by the GOI, presents the Indian government with the perfect excuse to tighten their control over Punjab under a pretext of safeguarding religious freedom. Not arguing that we necessarily should, but Sikhs are not in a position to be throwing their weight about in Punjab as if we were a secure, powerful community when the ground reality in India is that we are extremely few and vulnerable. We need to be more cautious in how we approach these deraay, because mistakes here have the potential to derail our entire freedom struggle. 

 

1 hour ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Sometimes I wonder if in recent history (since the nirankari incident) have we overreacted to otherwise harmless religious functions or processions of other faiths, esp the ones that seem a spin-off of traditional sikhism ?

We need to ask this question to ourselves because if its so , then it questions our moral credibility . 

Why does dera sacha sauda chief dressing as guru sahib infuriates us so much ? why couldn't we have just ignored it. The guy mimicries every other religion. 

We don't reach out to dalits. Parents in our community are <banned word filter activated> when it comes to religion. Its almost as if they loathe themselves to be sikhs. We don't reach out to so called neechi jaats. "Bhaiya" is still a cuss word despite 10th guru sahib being born in bhaiyya land. The woes of community continue . 

But when someone else starts a dera , because like it or not, not everyone can have faith in a guru that's inside the granth sahib, People need assurance, people need comfort words and who can give them ? In comes human gurus of punjab. 

We ourselves are to blame partly

You've hit the nail on the head, but I'd take it a step further than you and say that I think we are to blame almost entirely. 

Throughout history, the oppressed have often appropriated the words, signs and symbols of their oppressors. In the case of our own community, the dastaar was made mandatory for Khalsa Sikhs in part because only Muslims were permitted to wear them by the rulers of the time- it was a middle finger to the Mughal establishment. So was the requirement that Sikhs, who were mostly of low caste origin, become 'Singhs' and 'Kaurs', these being the names of their Hindu Kshatri persecutors. Later, the Sikh misldars appropriated the Persian language of the Mughal nobles whose subas they seized. Symbolic actions such as these conform to a people's sense of having gone full circle as a community and of having overcome oppression - what better proof of this than the fact that you are sitting on the throne and wearing the clothes of the one who not long ago was the bane of your existence? 

As you have pointed out dera politics in Punjab are blatantly construed along lines of caste. The significant majority of dera followers are mazhbi Sikhs who have been alienated from mainstream Sikhi by the appalling casteism in mostly Jatt-administrated guru ghars and Sikh institutions .As far as dera followers are concerned, the practical reality of remaining part of the Sikh fold is that they will continue to be chained by casteism/jattwaad. I am utterly convinced this is why deras commit their 'beadbis' by apeing the Amrit Sanchaar or Guru Gobind Singh Ji's dress - they are taking the religious symbols of a community which they genuinely believe OPPRESSES them and making them their own. Just like our own ancestors did. Of course it is not Sikhi itself persecuting them, Sikhi if properly practiced and implemented would solve all their problems. It is we Sikhs ourselves who are their persecutors. Our response to a dera baba dressing up as Guruji should be shame, not anger. Who are we to get riled up and protect the izzat of Guru when we refuse to even follow his kehna and abandon caste? 

 

 

Edited by Balkaar
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3 Singhs killed by this pakhandi group, thousands of women been raped and used for sexual purposes, hundreds of men been castrated by this group and to top it off this kanjar dressed up as Guru Gobind Singh Ji and made his own version of 'amrit' up. So now either carry on believing REAL Sikhs are over reacting, or do your own research. 

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21 hours ago, BhForce said:

The picture does not seem to indicate peaceful protest against the Naam Charcha:

Dera.jpg

It seems doubtful that the Sirsa followers created a shaded area especially for Sikh protesters and laid down carpets for them. The Sikh protesters are invading and walking around in the Sirsa followers area.

I am extremely opposed to Sikhs attempting to shut down Sirsa followers' meetings. Sikhs have no right to interfere with the normal religious practice of the Sirsa followers, just as nobody has the right to interfere with ours.

This should be condemned by all Sikhs, including at the Akal Takhat. Unfortunately, the Jathedar has no credibility among the Sikh public because of what he did in 2015.

I would like to hear if any Sikh thinks it's good or allowed for us to disrupt Sirsa meetings.

given that Sirsa wale has made more than 400 sikh youth into literal eunuchs and raped many sikh women I think why not...

We have a right to reclaim lost people hoodwinked by this fake , just as we have a right to protect our kids from groomers and jihadis

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16 hours ago, Balkaar said:

If they aren't physically committing beadbi of Guru Sahib or attacking their Sikhs, we should leave them alone. Ram Raiyas, Hindaliahs, Dhir Malias, our own Guru Sahibaan were beset by heresies and schisms from almost the beginning of Sikhi, but the only course of action they ever took against these groups was to prohibit their Sikhs from associating with them. 

Sikhs should understand better than anyone that persecuting a group only ever serves to strengthen it in the long run. Interfering with dera followers in the Punjab will only serve to make them more committed to their dehdari gurus. 

veer ji the major difference is these new fakes are totally aggressive and violent to our people ... we have a God given right to defend people and match force with force as these people are misusing law, police and media to make us the aggressors 

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Just now, jkvlondon said:

veer ji the major difference is these new fakes are totally aggressive and violent to our people ... we have a God given right to defend people and match force with force as these people are misusing law, police and media to make us the aggressors 

Yeah, force with force, that is acceptable in every country except the UK (where if you beat a burglar, you will be arrested). Anyway, what is the justification for crashing a "Naam Charcha", which is just a bunch of Sirsa followers getting together to do whatever their fake baba tells them is their mode of worship?

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7 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

given that Sirsa wale has made more than 400 sikh youth into literal eunuchs and raped many sikh women I think why not...

Haven't heard about eunuchs, have a link? Or on the rapes?

8 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

We have a right to reclaim lost people hoodwinked by this fake , just as we have a right to protect our kids from groomers and jihadis

Yes, we do have a right to protect kids from groomers and jihadies, but that is on a far different level than people going to Sirsa. Groomers present issues of consent and sexual aggression. Jihadis of violence.

How is that the same as people voluntarily going to the Sirsa baba (admittedly fake)? We do not own the Dalits as our property which we can just force to only attend gurdwaras, and never go to deras. If by "right to reclaim lost people" you mean non-violent preaching as in approaching people and talking, handing out pamphlets, taking out advertisements, holding meetings and divans, yes we have that right, and also the Sirsa baba also has the equivalent right.

But if by "right to reclaim lost people" you mean the right to disrupt non-violent religious meetings, no, we absolutely do not have that right. What do you think we are, Muslims? 

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Just now, BhForce said:

Yeah, force with force, that is acceptable in every country except the UK (where if you beat a burglar, you will be arrested). Anyway, what is the justification for crashing a "Naam Charcha", which is just a bunch of Sirsa followers getting together to do whatever their fake baba tells them is their mode of worship?

did you ask similar questions when the premis attacked ordinary Singhs (numerous times e.g.2007, 2012, 2017 )  and smashed up a Gurdwara in 2007 in Haryana border area? So beadbhi of Gurughar went unanswered, beatings, mutliations,killings and rapes of sikhs is forgettable ?

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1 minute ago, jkvlondon said:

did you ask similar questions when the premis attacked ordinary Singhs (numerous times e.g.2007, 2012, 2017 )  and smashed up a Gurdwara in 2007 in Haryana border area? So beadbhi of Gurughar went unanswered, beatings, mutliations,killings and rapes of sikhs is forgettable ?

Seriously? You're acting like I just created my account 5 minutes ago to post pro-Sirsa propaganda, as opposed to being one of the 4 or 5 most conservative posters on this site.

I just said numerous times during this thread that people (including Sikhs) do have the right to fight violence with violence. Answering violence with non-violence is cowardice. And using violence against non-violence is zulam (oppression).

Are you trying to say that beating up random Sirsa followers is acceptable as a response to the 2007 Gurdwara beadbi? If so, is beating up random British people in retaliation for Jallianwala Bagh OK? And Hindus killing random Sikhs in retaliation for the Indira assasination?

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2 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Haven't heard about eunuchs, have a link? Or on the rapes?

Yes, we do have a right to protect kids from groomers and jihadies, but that is on a far different level than people going to Sirsa. Groomers present issues of consent and sexual aggression. Jihadis of violence.

How is that the same as people voluntarily going to the Sirsa baba (admittedly fake)? We do not own the Dalits as our property which we can just force to only attend gurdwaras, and never go to deras. If by "right to reclaim lost people" you mean non-violent preaching as in approaching people and talking, handing out pamphlets, taking out advertisements, holding meetings and divans, yes we have that right, and also the Sirsa baba also has the equivalent right.

But if by "right to reclaim lost people" you mean the right to disrupt non-violent religious meetings, no, we absolutely do not have that right. What do you think we are, Muslims? 

http://www.pressreader.com/india/hindustan-times-jalandhar/20120728/281651072237678

http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/cbi-court-rejects-sirsa-dera-chief-s-plea-for-joint-hearing-in-rape-murder-cases/story-r07OG7uhuP3h9frzJFR2pI.html

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/Four-booked-in-Sirsa-for-raping-minor-sisters/articleshow/53257994.cms

https://www.nyoooz.com/news/chandigarh/81715/forensic-test-of-letter-ordered-in-sexual-abuse-case-against-dera-chief/

 

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15 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Seriously? You're acting like I just created my account 5 minutes ago to post pro-Sirsa propaganda, as opposed to being one of the 4 or 5 most conservative posters on this site.

I just said numerous times during this thread that people (including Sikhs) do have the right to fight violence with violence. Answering violence with non-violence is cowardice. And using violence against non-violence is zulam (oppression).

Are you trying to say that beating up random Sirsa followers is acceptable as a response to the 2007 Gurdwara beadbi? If so, is beating up random British people in retaliation for Jallianwala Bagh OK? And Hindus killing random Sikhs in retaliation for the Indira assasination?

the story is the sikhs legitimately protested and notified police chief who deferred to local inspector to deal with it . A Handful of sikhs turned up to the programme but they were arrested and two boys were also rounded up 12 and 14 year olds who were not there(seen footage will add URL)

http://www.sikhnewsexpress.com/sikh-dera-clash-mavi-kalan-police-post-in-charge-suspended-sne/

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13 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

When you said the Sirsa baba had made 400 Sikh youth into eunuchs, it sounded something like he was scooping up young Amritdhari Singhs into unlabeled white vans and chopping off their parts, and dropping them off in the streets. The article actually references Sirsa followers who were told to become eunuchs on the orders of the Baba. Now I don't endorse chopping off either your hair or your parts, but people are free to do what they want to do. We do not own people, and cannot prevent them from doing stupid things.

In any case, the courts are taking up a case against the Sirsa dera regarding this, so why do Sikhs need to disrupt Naam Charcha meetings for?

13 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

Did you notice the article says "Court rejects Sirsa dera chief’s plea for joint hearing in rape, murder cases"? Meaning the court gave a rejection to the Sirsa chief. Which means the courts are moving against the scum. So why do Sikhs need to disrupt the Naam Charcha meeting?

14 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

The article says "Four booked in Sirsa for raping minor sisters". It doesn't say "four released", or "four rapists totally ignored."

Secondly, while the two girls went to the Sirsa dera for "satsang", the article does not say they were raped in the dera, just a village inside Sirsa district. For example, "Amritsar" is the name of both a place (the Amrit Sarovar), and a city, and a district. A girl who went to Amritsar for darshan, and then was raped in a village of Amritsar district would not make the President of the SGPC responsible.

Again, the four were booked, so why do Sikhs need to disrupt a Naam Charcha meeting, and how does it advance the rape prosecution of these lowlifes?

14 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

Another article about an ongoing case against the Dera chief. So why do Sikhs need to disrupt a Naam Charcha meeting, and how does it advance the rape prosecution of this lowlifes?

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20 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

the story is the sikhs legitimately protested and notified police chief who deferred to local inspector to deal with it . A Handful of sikhs turned up to the programme but they were arrested and two boys were also rounded up 12 and 14 year olds who were not there(seen footage will add URL)

http://www.sikhnewsexpress.com/sikh-dera-clash-mavi-kalan-police-post-in-charge-suspended-sne/

Did you read my analysis above? It is patent that the Sikhs were invading the Sirsa followers space. That is not a "legitimate protest". Again, a legitimate protest is standing outside the venue raising slogans, holding signs, distributing leaflets, talking to people, etc. But your own reference, by the "Sikh News Express", by, I assume, a pro-Sikh outlet, says:

"Some Sikhs had barged into the venue where the dera followers were holding a congregation in Marouri on July 23 and had disrupted their proceedings by brandishing swords."

How is that a "legitimate protest"?

Would it be OK for Muslims to disrupt katha of Guru Nanak Dev ji's visit to Mecca by brandishing AK-47s?

It should go without saying that the minor children should not have been arrested (or taken part in the invasion of the Sirsa meeting, either). That does not excuse the invasion itself.

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Just now, BhForce said:

When you said the Sirsa baba had made 400 Sikh youth into eunuchs, it sounded something like he was scooping up young Amritdhari Singhs into unlabeled white vans and chopping off their parts, and dropping them off in the streets. The article actually references Sirsa followers who were told to become eunuchs on the orders of the Baba. Now I don't endorse chopping off either your hair or your parts, but people are free to do what they want to do. We do not own people, and cannot prevent them from doing stupid things.

In any case, the courts are taking up a case against the Sirsa dera regarding this, so why do Sikhs need to disrupt Naam Charcha meetings for?

Did you notice the article says "Court rejects Sirsa dera chief’s plea for joint hearing in rape, murder cases"? Meaning the court gave a rejection to the Sirsa chief. Which means the courts are moving against the scum. So why do Sikhs need to disrupt the Naam Charcha meeting?

The article says "Four booked in Sirsa for raping minor sisters". It doesn't say "four released", or "four rapists totally ignored."

Secondly, while the two girls went to the Sirsa dera for "satsang", the article does not say they were raped in the dera, just a village inside Sirsa district. For example, "Amritsar" is the name of both a place (the Amrit Sarovar), and a city, and a district. A girl who went to Amritsar for darshan, and then was raped in a village of Amritsar district would not make the President of the SGPC responsible.

Again, the four were booked, so why do Sikhs need to disrupt a Naam Charcha meeting, and how does it advance the rape prosecution of these lowlifes?

Another article about an ongoing case against the Dera chief. So why do Sikhs need to disrupt a Naam Charcha meeting, and how does it advance the rape prosecution of this lowlifes?

the murder case and rape cases have still not been actioned its been 4 years plus, just defer defer defer

the picture- everyone is calm not angry/scared  maybe media just making a storm in a teacup?

there have been other directly related cases of rape and abuse ...any woman or girl is our sister daughter so our problem just as all guys who are being attacked and hoodwinked by this S- for brains man into cutting off their manhood to achieve mukhti are my sons and brothers.

what was the nature of the 'disruption' nothing said just repetition of the same phrase across the Hindian Media

Why should we tolerate new people being swindled do we not owe care to our fellow citizens knowing what we do ? JUst because he uses the phrase naam charcha , does it mean the same as you assume ? he called his mockery of Guru Pita ji his initiation ceremony too ...

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5 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Did you read my analysis above? It is patent that the Sikhs were invading the Sirsa followers space. That is not a "legitimate protest". Again, a legitimate protest is standing outside the venue raising slogans, holding signs, distributing leaflets, talking to people, etc. But your own reference, by the "Sikh News Express", by, I assume, a pro-Sikh outlet, says:

"Some Sikhs had barged into the venue where the dera followers were holding a congregation in Marouri on July 23 and had disrupted their proceedings by brandishing swords."

How is that a "legitimate protest"?

Would it be OK for Muslims to disrupt katha of Guru Nanak Dev ji's visit to Mecca by brandishing AK-47s?

It should go without saying that the minor children should not have been arrested (or taken part in the invasion of the Sirsa meeting, either). That does not excuse the invasion itself.

most of the protest was centred in the gurdwara try reading again , it was in the hundreds sangat, the police went to the gurdwara not where there was a problem ...and reinforcements also so any arrests was from there first , then after the fact they arrested 14 others supposedly from the sirsa satsang.

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13 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

the murder case and rape cases have still not been actioned its been 4 years plus, just defer defer defer

You do know that every case in India moves at a snail's pace, right?

In any case, why are you saying this? As I asked above, how does disrupting the Naam Charcha advance the court cases? One has nothing to do with the other.

If the Sikhs had demonstrated at the courts so the judges could see the depth of passion for justice on their way in to work, there may have been a point to the exercise. This? Nothing.

21 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

there have been other directly related cases of rape and abuse ...any woman or girl is our sister daughter so our problem just as all guys who are being attacked and hoodwinked by this S- for brains man into cutting off their manhood to achieve mukhti are my sons and brothers.

OK, so you seemed to have moved off the claim that the Dera was specifically attacking Sikhs to a general claim about all human victims are our problem. Well, that's progress. Anyway, have we solved all our problems so now we can move on to solving the problems of other communities?

Are we strong enough, have enough physical, moral, economic, political power that we can fix other people's problems? Even if we did, all the we have the right to do is what we actually have the right to do: legitimate protests, parchar, fighting legal cases, offering economic support, etc. We do not have the right to disrupt non-violent religious meetings, and disrupting such meetings won't help the rape/murder victims' cases in any case.

26 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

the picture- everyone is calm not angry/scared  maybe media just making a storm in a teacup?

Umm, let's say Sikhs are doing Rehras, katha, whatever, in their Gurdwara. Would you consider a dozen or so Muslims walking in to the Gurdwara and walking around not a disruption, even if they didn't start beating people up? I'm not talking about walking in and sitting down to listen to Rehras.

27 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

what was the nature of the 'disruption' nothing said just repetition of the same phrase across the Hindian Media

 

Again, the disruption is simply invading their space without permission. It not a disruption only when you start beating or killing people. 

I would like to get an answer to whether you think Sikhs have a right to do that? (DIsrupt non-Sikh events.) And, secondly, whether you think non-Sikhs have a right to disrupt Sikh events.

33 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

JUst because he uses the phrase naam charcha , does it mean the same as you assume ?

I'm much more "kattad" than you on this question. I've posted many times here on the Satnam, and how it is only available in the house of Guru Nanak. By "Naam Charcha" I'm only using the term that they use to refer to something so we can discuss it.

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12 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

most of the protest was centred in the gurdwara try reading again , it was in the hundreds sangat, the police went to the gurdwara not where there was a problem ...and reinforcements also so any arrests was from there first , then after the fact they arrested 14 others supposedly from the sirsa satsang.

As I just said, it's legitimate to hold meetings and do parchar, so meeting in the gurdwara and talking about how the Sirsa guru is a false guru is a great thing to do. AFAIK, I am much more kattar than you on this question.

It looks like there must be hundreds of people in the Gurdwara. But the police only registered a case against 14 (article doesn't say arrested). Which, if they were the ones who disrupted the Naam Charcha, that's fine, appropriate, and legal.

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Just now, BhForce said:

You do know that every case in India moves at a snail's pace, right?

In any case, why are you saying this? As I asked above, how does disrupting the Naam Charcha advance the court cases? One has nothing to do with the other.

If the Sikhs had demonstrated at the courts so the judges could see the depth of passion for justice on their way in to work, there may have been a point to the exercise. This? Nothing.

OK, so you seemed to have moved off the claim that the Dera was specifically attacking Sikhs to a general claim about all human victims are our problem. Well, that's progress. Anyway, have we solved all our problems so now we can move on to solving the problems of other communities?

Are we strong enough, have enough physical, moral, economic, political power that we can fix other people's problems? Even if we did, all the we have the right to do is what we actually have the right to do: legitimate protests, parchar, fighting legal cases, offering economic support, etc. We do not have the right to disrupt non-violent religious meetings, and disrupting such meetings won't help the rape/murder victims' cases in any case.

Umm, let's say Sikhs are doing Rehras, katha, whatever, in their Gurdwara. Would you consider a dozen or so Muslims walking in to the Gurdwara and walking around not a disruption, even if they didn't start beating people up? I'm not talking about walking in and sitting down to listen to Rehras.

 

Again, the disruption is simply invading their space without permission. It not a disruption only when you start beating or killing people. 

I would like to get an answer to whether you think Sikhs have a right to do that? (DIsrupt non-Sikh events.) And, secondly, whether you think non-Sikhs have a right to disrupt Sikh events.

I'm much more "kattad" than you on this question. I've posted many times here on the Satnam, and how it is only available in the house of Guru Nanak. By "Naam Charcha" I'm only using the term that they use to refer to something so we can discuss it.

media plays its word games and we end up none the wiser, the picture is from outside the diwan because people are just standing around chatting they aren't even looking (and you know about Indian death stare) there are four possible sikhs in frame hardly an invasion maybe this was the extent, maybe not but so far no other pictures to back up accusations. 

ok do I believe walking in and disturbing prayers is right? no

 Do I believe that there were unsheathed swords brandished a la 30th 1984 anniversary ? No I don't  I believe There were some amritdharis but I cannot say just how they acted because there are no witness statements (surprise surprise)

Until something more is revealed I will take this story witha lump of salt, because I know Sirsa is RSS pet and they want all the aankhi sikhs to be imprisoned much like the 80-00s

 

 

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18 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Why do sikhs have to brandish sword at every small incident ? it destroys credibility of kirpan as a "last resort".

Yeah, I agree with this. Now, before anyone accuses me of being anti-Kirpan, I am not. But you can see clearly in the photo the brother with the full size kirpan is wearing a Western shirt and pants, by which we can surmise that he does not wear a full size kirpan daily, he just brought it along for this encounter. It's one thing to have a kirpan in your gatra, it's another to have it in your hands, and context matters, a lot. Soldiers having their rifles on their backs with their straps over their bodies is one thing, having the rifles in their hands is another.

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11 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Yeah, I agree with this. Now, before anyone accuses me of being anti-Kirpan, I am not. But you can see clearly in the photo the brother with the full size kirpan is wearing a Western shirt and pants, by which we can surmise that he does not wear a full size kirpan daily, he just brought it along for this encounter. It's one thing to have a kirpan in your gatra, it's another to have it in your hands, and context matters, a lot. Soldiers having their rifles on their backs with their straps over their bodies is one thing, having the rifles in their hands is another.

there is a concerted effort on the worldwide stage to 'radicalise' our image , mainly driven by antisikh agendas GOI, RSS, Congress , Badal even part from secondary players like Contract chasers like UK , USA and EU

Whereever missionaries have caused upset abroad you have mystery sword wielders turning up , it's something I've noticed happening , it's almost like they want kirpans to be banned again

Edited by jkvlondon

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    • I already said that, read the thread!
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