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In Defense of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur

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16 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think it is very wrong to think that people somehow diminish or disrespect Banda Singh Bahadhur ji because of the contents of PP. I certainly don't. 

What PP gives us is one warts and all perspective of events. It's invaluable as a Sikh source and instead of of white-washing everything, shows us that even respected and awesome leaders like Banda Singh faced their own complex issues during their leadership. 

I respect Panth Prakash but I don't hold it's writing as infallible. I don't agree with Bhangu on some points besides Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. I don't agree with him that Bhai Mani Singh Jee got Shaheed due to his "sin" against Gurbani.

 

But disagreement doesn't mean PP doesn't hold a special place in Sikh history. PP gives us great info about our Bazurgs even if sometimes it is not accurate on some points but still it should be studied by all Sikhs along with Sooraj Prakash Granth.

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1 hour ago, Jonny101 said:

I respect Panth Prakash but I don't hold it's writing as infallible. I don't agree with Bhangu on some points besides Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. I don't agree with him that Bhai Mani Singh Jee got Shaheed due to his "sin" against Gurbani.

 

But disagreement doesn't mean PP doesn't hold a special place in Sikh history. PP gives us great info about our Bazurgs even if sometimes it is not accurate on some points but still it should be studied by all Sikhs along with Sooraj Prakash Granth.

Its the same old post with this dolly character.  He's been a broken record for 20 odd years.  He has not expanded his ability to think since 3rd grade.  Always grasping at broken straws to insult the Khalsa Panth.  Look at one of his post here where he is trying to imply Baba Deep Singh ji was wrong.  It never ends with moni.  

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3 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

What are you talking about? Binod Singh was the only one of the Panj Pyaras who left the councel of the Punj Pyaras and abandoned the Singhs. All the other 4 of the 5 Pyaras remained with Baba Ji including Binod SIngh's OWN SON!

Binod Singh had contacts with the Mughals. He then recieved a Jagir from them for his treachery. This treacherous person then uses his influence with his Mughals friends to free his son from death. So this traiter not only broke ranks and disobeyed his leader, he left the councel of the Panj Pyaras, he saves his own son while letting all the other Singh die.

On the other hand, Baba Jee was a Bedaagh Shaksee`at (a blot less personality). He was personally handpicked by Gurus Sahib. He lived and for his Guru's commands. He killed the killers of the Sahibzade, he created the first Sikh state and uprooted 800 years of Muslim rule. He gave land to the peasants who were living like serfs. And if that isn't enough, he died such a unimaginable torturous death but did not waver one bit. He had his own son's beating heart shoved into her mouth  How can you compare this to the traitor who saved his son and accepted Jagir from the Mughals!

I will defend Baba Jee as long as I have swaas in my body. You are doing Nindya of this Brahmgiani Mahapursh. You have no idea how much Paap you are putting on your head by doing this.

It was actually Mata Sundri Ji who negotiated peace with the Mughals. It was Mata who secured the release of Baba Binod Singhs son... Baba Binod Singh was from the family of Guru Amar Das.

If Bandai Khalsa were the ones in the right then when Baba Mani Singh placed two pieces of paper in the sarovar at Harimandir Sahib, one for Tat Khalsa & the other for Bandai Khalsa & did ardas to mahraj to show which side were the true sons of Guru Sahib & the upholders of gurmat, mahraj chose Tat Khalsa which was being led by Baba Binod Singh.... Mahrajs hukam went in favour of Tat Khalsa & Baba Binod Singh!

You just can't accept you are out of your depth on this one, have made a massive error in judgement & are too spineless to apologise..... at the moment you stand on one side with your opinion.... anything I have said is based on Rattan Singh Bhangu, Hukamnama of Mata Sundri Ji, katha of Sant Jarnail Singh, Baba Mani Singh decision at Harminder Sahib. Anything I have said or implied about Banda Singh is based on the writings/opinions of the above maha gursikhs so how I've done nindiya eludes me. You on the other hand have made accusations about Baba Binod Singh that no mahapursh or any historical granth would validate.... carry on....

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Someone should post pages from panth Parkash regarding Banda Bahadur on this topic for all to see.

 

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1 hour ago, Destruction said:

Someone should post pages from panth Parkash regarding Banda Bahadur on this topic for all to see.

 

Yeah and some should post pages of Dr Ganda Singh's book disproving them

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4 hours ago, Mahakaal96 said:

It was actually Mata Sundri Ji who negotiated peace with the Mughals. It was Mata who secured the release of Baba Binod Singhs son... Baba Binod Singh was from the family of Guru Amar Das.

If Bandai Khalsa were the ones in the right then when Baba Mani Singh placed two pieces of paper in the sarovar at Harimandir Sahib, one for Tat Khalsa & the other for Bandai Khalsa & did ardas to mahraj to show which side were the true sons of Guru Sahib & the upholders of gurmat, mahraj chose Tat Khalsa which was being led by Baba Binod Singh.... Mahrajs hukam went in favour of Tat Khalsa & Baba Binod Singh!

You just can't accept you are out of your depth on this one, have made a massive error in judgement & are too spineless to apologise..... at the moment you stand on one side with your opinion.... anything I have said is based on Rattan Singh Bhangu, Hukamnama of Mata Sundri Ji, katha of Sant Jarnail Singh, Baba Mani Singh decision at Harminder Sahib. Anything I have said or implied about Banda Singh is based on the writings/opinions of the above maha gursikhs so how I've done nindiya eludes me. You on the other hand have made accusations about Baba Binod Singh that no mahapursh or any historical granth would validate.... carry on....

Mata ji had nothing to do with Binod Singh's son being released. That was all Binod Singh doing. The traiters had no real reason for doing what they did so they are tarnishing the name of Mata ji by trying to connect her to their treachery to Baba ji. Unlike Puratan times, today we have a lot of info regarding what happened back then and the lies are finally being exposed. 

 

And the so called difference between the two groups has also been disproved  by historians and even in the video by the OP.

 

Baba ji was, is and always will be held in high regard by Guru Sahib.  No amount of slander will be able to change that. Only thing is, I am concerned for your spirit and how much punishment it will go through for the Paaps it is currently adding up for the slander against a Brahmgiani.

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31 minutes ago, Jonny101 said:

Mata ji had nothing to do with Binod Singh's son being released. That was all Binod Singh doing. The traiters had no real reason for doing what they did so they are tarnishing the name of Mata ji by trying to connect her to their treachery to Baba ji. Unlike Puratan times, today we have a lot of info regarding what happened back then and the lies are finally being exposed. 

 

And the so called difference between the two groups has also been disproved  by historians and even in the video by the OP.

 

Baba ji was, is and always will be held in high regard by Guru Sahib.  No amount of slander will be able to change that. Only thing is, I am concerned for your spirit and how much punishment it will go through for the Paaps it is currently adding up for the slander against a Brahmgiani.

I think you need to understand what slander is... then apply that understanding to what you are saying about Baba Binod Singh.

I take it Mata Sundri Ji was committing slander when she issued a hukamnama against Banda Singh?

I take it Sant Jarnail Singh was committing slander when he did katha on Banda Singh inline with Panth Prakash.

I take it Rattan Singh Bhangu, the grandson of Mehtab Singh who killed Massa Rangar was committing slander when he wrote Panth Prakash.

 

P.S Thank you for your concern towards my 'spirit'.... it's appreciated but I'd rather focus on my 'soul' 

 

Edited by Mahakaal96

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On 15/07/2017 at 9:23 AM, Mahakaal96 said:

 There's hukamname from Mata Sundar Ji telling the sangat to not follow Banda anymore as he went of the path of gurmat.

 

Is this hukumnama or a translation of it available to read online anywhere? If not a book where it is written?

Thanks

 

On 15/07/2017 at 9:55 AM, 13Mirch said:

 I put up an audio clip in which Sant Jarnail Singh Ji concurs with Bhangu's perception of Baba Banda Singh. Want me to put it up one more time?

 

Yes please. Thanks. I heard it a long time ago (poss 10 years) but would rather not have to trawl through all my tapes to find it.

 

On 15/07/2017 at 11:25 AM, Jonny101 said:

Why would I respect the person who disobeyed his leader at a critical time, got Jageer from the Mughals and then used his power and influence to get his son freed from Mughal captivity while letting hundreds of Singh's get Shaheed in Delhi. He was a Santa Singh of his time period. 

 

I never knew that Baaj Singh survived Delhi. Had always thought he was shaheed. If you consider the sakhi of the Sikh boy who was shaheed (even though his mother protested that he wasn't a Sikh) it seems a little weird that Baaj Singh would prefer to survival rather than shaheedi with his comrades.

 

 

16 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

What are you talking about? Binod Singh was the only one of the Panj Pyaras who left the councel of the Punj Pyaras and abandoned the Singhs. All the other 4 of the 5 Pyaras remained with Baba Ji including Binod SIngh's OWN SON!

 

Where are you reading/hearing that 4 of the 5 Pyaras remained with Baba Ji?

 

16 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

 So this traiter not only broke ranks and disobeyed his leader, he left the councel of the Panj Pyaras,

 

From what I have been told. at Gurdas Nangal, there was a difference of opinion over tactics. The same scenario at Anandpur Sahib when some Sikhs were of the opinion to leave the Qilla and fight the enemy/escape. Baba Binod Singh Ji was of the opinion to face the enemy and fight whereas Baba Banda Singh wanted to hold out against their seige. Those that wanted to try and escape the seige/fight the turks left with Baba Binod Singh but they were not held back by Baba Banda Bahadur either. He gave all the Sikhs there the choice to remain or chance their luck.

 

16 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

I respect Panth Prakash but I don't hold it's writing as infallible. I don't agree with Bhangu on some points besides Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. I don't agree with him that Bhai Mani Singh Jee got Shaheed due to his "sin" against Gurbani.

 

Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangu is not the only writer to have written this. BHai Kesar Singh Chibber has written the same in "Bansawalinama".

 

8 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

Yeah and some should post pages of Dr Ganda Singh's book disproving them

 

It would be great if someone could. I would like to read them as well. Thanks.

 

If anyone wishes to listen to ongoing katha of Panth Parkash here is the link:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Nihang_Giani_Sher_Singh_(Ambala_wale)/Pracheen_Panth_Parkash_Katha/Nihang.Giani.Sher.Singh.(Ambala.wale)--Pracheen.Panth.Parkash.Katha.-.Part.01.-.2014-10-01.-.Sri.Guru.Panth.Prakash.01.mp3

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18 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

Yeah and some should post pages of Dr Ganda Singh's book disproving them

Ganda Singh had nothing substantial. Prof. Puran Singh, Dr. Trilochan Singh and S. Kapur Singh often criticized his shallow reasoning. He attempts to argue, in A Short History of the Sikhs vol. i, that Guru Gobind Singh Ji perceived the Khalsa and Mughals to be parallel in the socio-political field given that both were creations of Sri Akal Purakh Vaheguru. S. Kapur Singh and Dr. Trilochan Singh, both, disprove this nation by analyzing the original verse in the Bachittra-Natak which postulates that those who discard truth and morality often become prey for politico-religious state tyranny. 

Edited by 13Mirch

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9 hours ago, chatanga said:

 

Is this hukumnama or a translation of it available to read online anywhere? If not a book where it is written?

Thanks

 

 

Yes please. Thanks. I heard it a long time ago (poss 10 years) but would rather not have to trawl through all my tapes to find it.

 

 

I never knew that Baaj Singh survived Delhi. Had always thought he was shaheed. If you consider the sakhi of the Sikh boy who was shaheed (even though his mother protested that he wasn't a Sikh) it seems a little weird that Baaj Singh would prefer to survival rather than shaheedi with his comrades.

 

 

 

Where are you reading/hearing that 4 of the 5 Pyaras remained with Baba Ji?

 

 

From what I have been told. at Gurdas Nangal, there was a difference of opinion over tactics. The same scenario at Anandpur Sahib when some Sikhs were of the opinion to leave the Qilla and fight the enemy/escape. Baba Binod Singh Ji was of the opinion to face the enemy and fight whereas Baba Banda Singh wanted to hold out against their seige. Those that wanted to try and escape the seige/fight the turks left with Baba Binod Singh but they were not held back by Baba Banda Bahadur either. He gave all the Sikhs there the choice to remain or chance their luck.

 

 

Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangu is not the only writer to have written this. BHai Kesar Singh Chibber has written the same in "Bansawalinama".

 

 

It would be great if someone could. I would like to read them as well. Thanks.

 

If anyone wishes to listen to ongoing katha of Panth Parkash here is the link:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Nihang_Giani_Sher_Singh_(Ambala_wale)/Pracheen_Panth_Parkash_Katha/Nihang.Giani.Sher.Singh.(Ambala.wale)--Pracheen.Panth.Parkash.Katha.-.Part.01.-.2014-10-01.-.Sri.Guru.Panth.Prakash.01.mp3

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Jarnail_Singh_(Bhindran_wale)/41_Questions_with_Sant_Jarnail_Singh_Ji_Bhindrawalae/Sant.Jarnail.Singh.(Bhindra.wale)--41.Questions.with.Sant.Jarnail.Singh.Ji.Bhindrawalae.Part.01.mp3

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On 7/16/2017 at 6:42 AM, Jonny101 said:

I respect Panth Prakash but I don't hold it's writing as infallible. I don't agree with Bhangu on some points besides Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. I don't agree with him that Bhai Mani Singh Jee got Shaheed due to his "sin" against Gurbani.

 

But disagreement doesn't mean PP doesn't hold a special place in Sikh history. PP gives us great info about our Bazurgs even if sometimes it is not accurate on some points but still it should be studied by all Sikhs along with Sooraj Prakash Granth.

It's unique and we are very lucky to have it. Imagine all those people who don't have such literature like certain tribes in Africa, native Americans etc., various aborigines.

To me the work is a classic. That doesn't mean everything in it will be correct, but it's invaluable as a document that captures contemporary beliefs from an insider perspective.  

I don't get this impulse too many apnay have that results in their getting their knickers in a twist over the contents of historical granths? If it's the idea that our ancestors lived very different lives to us and thought very differently to us today that is unpalatable to modern readers living in relative comfort, that is the height of stupidity. 

I think it's ego too. Certain people take so much pride in certain practices of theirs which they consider very Sikhlike, that when they read about behaviour that goes contrary to this by our own ancestors during a definitive, heroic period of our history - the dissonance is too much for them. 

What if those people are wrong, and Bhangu has put down realities of that time as preserved through oral traditions, including direct family contact. 

Edited by dallysingh101
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On 2017-07-16 at 9:33 AM, Mahakaal96 said:

I think you need to understand what slander is... then apply that understanding to what you are saying about Baba Binod Singh.

I take it Mata Sundri Ji was committing slander when she issued a hukamnama against Banda Singh?

I take it Sant Jarnail Singh was committing slander when he did katha on Banda Singh inline with Panth Prakash.

I take it Rattan Singh Bhangu, the grandson of Mehtab Singh who killed Massa Rangar was committing slander when he wrote Panth Prakash.

 

P.S Thank you for your concern towards my 'spirit'.... it's appreciated but I'd rather focus on my 'soul' 

 

It is just semantics. Forget spirit or soul.

ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਫਰਮਾਉਂਦੇ ਨੇ "ਸੰਤ ਕਾ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਦੋਖ ਮਹਿ ਦੋਖ" ਸੋ ਤੇਰੀ ਜਿਹੜੀ ਬਾਬਾ ਜੀ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ਇਹ ਨਿੰਦਿਆ ਹੈ ਬਾਬਾ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਇਸਦਾ ਕੋਈ ਫਰਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਣਾ ਕਿਓਂਕਿ  "ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਲਪ"

ਪਰ ਹਾਂ , ਜੇ ਫਰਕ ਪੈਣਾ ਤਾ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਪਊ ਜਦ ਤੇਰਾ ਵਾਹ ਜਮਦੂਤਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਪਿਆ|| ਪਰ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਉਸ ਵਖਤ ਸਮਝ ਆਊਗੀ ਜਦ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਬਾਬਾ ਜੀ ਵਰਗੇ ਸੰਤ ਮਹਾਪੁਰਸ਼ ਦੀ  ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ ਜੁਰਮ ਵਿਚ ਤਸੀਹੇ ਝੱਲਣੇ ਪੈਣੇ.

it is one thing if a person innocently does Nindia of a Brahmgiani like Babaji after reading Panth Prakash. But when a person is made aware of the slander against Baba Jee in Panth Prakash and still insists upon continuing his Nindia then he is responsible for his own torture he will endure in Yamlok from Jamdoots.

Edited by Jonny101

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On ‎2017‎-‎07‎-‎16 at 5:59 PM, chatanga said:

 

I never knew that Baaj Singh survived Delhi. Had always thought he was shaheed. If you consider the sakhi of the Sikh boy who was shaheed (even though his mother protested that he wasn't a Sikh) it seems a little weird that Baaj Singh would prefer to survival rather than shaheedi with his comrades.

 

 Bhai Baaj Singh ji was not the son of Binod Singh. binod singh's son's name was Kahn Singh Ji. But both Baaj Singh Jee and Bhai Kahn Singh Jee were part of the Panj Pyaras and remained with Baba Jee and did not break ranks and abandon Baba Jee in Gurdas Nangal as binod singh did. The fact that his own son Kahn Singh ji stayed with Baba jee shows how wrong binod singh was in this matter. Later when all the Singhs were caught by the Mughals and being taken to Delhi binod singh used his influence with his Mughal buddies to free his son from captivity. Just look at the difference here. Baba Jee had a chance to save his infant son from a cruel death but didn't out of khalsa principle and he became a Shaheed along with his son. While that binod singh saves his son. The other other remaining three of the Panj Pyaras including Bhai Baaj Singh Ji became Shaheed with Baba Ji and no doubt are in Sach Khand. I will much rather listen to those Shaheeds than binod singh who spread these lies against Baba Jee in order to justify his treachery

Edited by Jonny101

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On ‎2017‎-‎07‎-‎17 at 3:17 AM, 13Mirch said:

Ganda Singh had nothing substantial. Prof. Puran Singh, Dr. Trilochan Singh and S. Kapur Singh often criticized his shallow reasoning. He attempts to argue, in A Short History of the Sikhs vol. i, that Guru Gobind Singh Ji perceived the Khalsa and Mughals to be parallel in the socio-political field given that both were creations of Sri Akal Purakh Vaheguru. S. Kapur Singh and Dr. Trilochan Singh, both, disprove this nation by analyzing the original verse in the Bachittra-Natak which postulates that those who discard truth and morality often become prey for politico-religious state tyranny. 

On the contrary, Dr Ganda Singh's book is all substantial with references from Persian and Mughal sources which are contemporary and did not make the mistake of only relying on Panth Prakash (written during the times of M Ranjit SIngh) for all his info like some members here on this forum

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2 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

On the contrary, Dr Ganda Singh's book is all substantial with references from Persian and Mughal sources which are contemporary and did not make the mistake of only relying on Panth Prakash (written during the times of M Ranjit SIngh) for all his info like some members here on this forum

Moghul sources are invaluable, but the writers didn't have insider information like Bhangu did. Don't forget that. 

Edited by dallysingh101

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