PreetamSingh

In Defense of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur

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The person in the video contradicted himself through the video. He proclaimed Baba Ji as a Brahmgyani (which he was) but at the same time said Baba Ji made a mistake with "Fateh Darshan" as a way of performing slang for the full Fateh, I sincerely doubt someone on that spiritual level would make any use of any form of slang, especially for something given by Guru Father. Which is it? Quite a portion of it seems contradictory to what was written a good few hundred years after Baba Ji's martyrdom in Suraj Parkash (bearing in mind Kavi Ji spent a good few decades researching and gathering information for it).

 

Baba Ji was an amazing leader, extremely powerful (spiritually and physically). Guru Sahib appointed him to a task but Baba Ji (according to Suraj Parkash Granth) also made mistakes (not destroying Sirhind like he was ordered to, turning on the Khalsa, insulting Guru Mata and so on) which resulted in God taking away his powers and might. In all honesty we need a proper historical re-evaluation of his fascinating history. Most definitely there's truth in Kavi Ji's words but at the same time there may be more to it all. 

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3 minutes ago, Kira said:

The person in the video contradicted himself through the video. He proclaimed Baba Ji as a Brahmgyani (which he was) but at the same time said Baba Ji made a mistake with "Fateh Darshan" as a way of performing slang for the full Fateh, I sincerely doubt someone on that spiritual level would make any use of any form of slang, especially for something given by Guru Father. Which is it? Quite a portion of it seems contradictory to what was written a good few hundred years after Baba Ji's martyrdom in Suraj Parkash (bearing in mind Kavi Ji spent a good few decades researching and gathering information for it).

 

Baba Ji was an amazing leader, extremely powerful (spiritually and physically). Guru Sahib appointed him to a task but Baba Ji (according to Suraj Parkash Granth) also made mistakes (not destroying Sirhind like he was ordered to, turning on the Khalsa, insulting Guru Mata and so on) which resulted in God taking away his powers and might. In all honesty we need a proper historical re-evaluation of his fascinating history. Most definitely there's truth in Kavi Ji's words but at the same time there may be more to it all. 

Bhangu's Panth Prakash is also a great source on Banda Singh Bahadhur. 

There is this strong tendency by many apnay to whitewash (essentially rewrite) history to make it inline with some sort of preconceived (usually romanticised) image they have in their head. I think this way of thinking stems from victorian/anglo/protestant christian values  from the colonial period (that people have imbibed), because prior to that, indigenous Sikh historiography had no problems with warts and all accounts of Sikh history. After the 'annexation' Sikh historians all of a sudden felt compelled to start rewriting/hiding stuff. After a century of that, we've ended up in a strange position where we are overly suspicious of our own pre-colonial literature and whilst our ancestors had no problem with the contents, people today struggle to accept them.  

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4 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Bhangu's Panth Prakash is also a great source on Banda Singh Bahadhur. 

There is this strong tendency by many apnay to whitewash (essentially rewrite) history to make it inline with some sort of preconceived (usually romanticised) image they have in their head. I think this way of thinking stems from victorian/anglo/protestant christian values  from the colonial period (that people have imbibed), because prior to that, indigenous Sikh historiography had no problems with warts and all accounts of Sikh history. After the 'annexation' Sikh historians all of a sudden felt compelled to start rewriting/hiding stuff. After a century of that, we've ended up in a strange position where we are overly suspicious of our own pre-colonial literature and whilst our ancestors had no problem with the contents, people today struggle to accept them.  

Spot on mate!!!!

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8 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Bhangu's Panth Prakash is also a great source on Banda Singh Bahadhur. 

There is this strong tendency by many apnay to whitewash (essentially rewrite) history to make it inline with some sort of preconceived (usually romanticised) image they have in their head. I think this way of thinking stems from victorian/anglo/protestant christian values  from the colonial period (that people have imbibed), because prior to that, indigenous Sikh historiography had no problems with warts and all accounts of Sikh history. After the 'annexation' Sikh historians all of a sudden felt compelled to start rewriting/hiding stuff. After a century of that, we've ended up in a strange position where we are overly suspicious of our own pre-colonial literature and whilst our ancestors had no problem with the contents, people today struggle to accept them.  

100% right. The author of this hasn't quoted any sources whatsoever. I've not read Panth Prakash yet but its on my to do list.

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Banda Singh Bahadur was a great man, but he was not perfect. Problems with this video is that it over-exerts his success without a fair and unbiased view. Simply being chosen by the light of God himself couldn't stop him, Bahadur Shah himself worked with Guru Sahib, so that would mean he's great as well, but we all know the history. Even the legendary blessed Damdami Taksal, an institution made by Guru Sahib himself, led by Mahapurukhs since Baba Deep Singh Ji to Baba Thakur Singh Ji is also far from perfection,( in modern day). People are going to do what feels right, rather than what's actually right.

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13 minutes ago, Kira said:

I've not read Panth Prakash yet but its on my to do list.

Dear Kira,

 

you can find panth Parkash on "scribd" app

Edited by Destruction

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1 minute ago, Destruction said:

Dear Kira,

 

you can find panth Parkash on "scribd" app

thanks bro, im aware :D. I just don't have the time right now haha.

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38 minutes ago, Kira said:

thanks bro, im aware :D. I just don't have the time right now haha.

The section on Banda Singh (at the end of volume one) will blow your mind. It isn't too long either. 

 

Here it is, for whenever you are ready:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/54832175/Vol-1-SRI-GUR-PANTH-PRAKASH-by-Rattan-Singh-Bhangoo-Trans-Kulwant-Singh

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8 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

The section on Banda Singh (at the end of volume one) will blow your mind. It isn't too long either. 

 

Here it is, for whenever you are ready:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/54832175/Vol-1-SRI-GUR-PANTH-PRAKASH-by-Rattan-Singh-Bhangoo-Trans-Kulwant-Singh

ill give it a smash before bedtime tonight.

 

 

Edit: I read a bit, this seems eerily familiar to me.

Edited by Kira

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On 7/14/2017 at 1:41 AM, dallysingh101 said:

The section on Banda Singh (at the end of volume one) will blow your mind. It isn't too long either. 

 

Here it is, for whenever you are ready:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/54832175/Vol-1-SRI-GUR-PANTH-PRAKASH-by-Rattan-Singh-Bhangoo-Trans-Kulwant-Singh

https://tisarpanthdotcom.wordpress.com/2017/04/25/in-the-age-of-the-sword/

 

 

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Finally, someone has done a good job in defending Baba Ji. Although I think they could have done even more but even a little bit is good in defending Baba Ji. many snatanis will not like this one bit. It is understandable since they have tried very hard to demonize Baba Ji with lies and pure Nindya. But Baba Banda Singh Bahadur is like the moon. Those who try to spit at the moon will soon regret it when their own spit lands back on their face.

People do not realize how much Paap they are burdening themselves under by doing Nindya of a Brahmgiani like Baba Ji. We had some Nindaks tried to do the same to Sant Jee but no one listens to them anymore. Same is with Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. Baba Jee is very much respected by the Sikh masses as a spotless Sikh personality. And God willing, Baba Jee's memory and prestige will be enhanced even more in future

Edited by Jonny101
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1 hour ago, Jonny101 said:

Finally, someone has done a good job in defending Baba Ji. Although I think they could have done even more but even a little bit is good in defending Baba Ji. many snatanis will not like this one bit. It is understandable since they have tried very hard to demonize Baba Ji with lies and pure Nindya. But Baba Banda Singh Bahadur is like the moon. Those who try to spit at the moon will soon regret it when their own spit lands back on their face.

People do not realize how much Paap they are burdening themselves under by doing Nindya of a Brahmgiani like Baba Ji. We had some Nindaks tried to do the same to Sant Jee but no one listens to them anymore. Same is with Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. Baba Jee is very much respected by the Sikh masses as a spotless Sikh personality. And God willing, Baba Jee's memory and prestige will be enhanced even more in future

As opposed to the paap you burdened yourself with when you did maha nindya of Baba Binod Singh..... when you was challenged you ran away from this site with your tail between your legs. There's hukamname from Mata Sundar Ji telling the sangat to not follow Banda anymore as he went of the path of gurmat. Rattan Singh Bhangu was from a family of great gursikhs, he's a much more reliable source then any of these other modern 'historians'. 

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1 hour ago, Jonny101 said:

Finally, someone has done a good job in defending Baba Ji. Although I think they could have done even more but even a little bit is good in defending Baba Ji. many snatanis will not like this one bit. It is understandable since they have tried very hard to demonize Baba Ji with lies and pure Nindya. But Baba Banda Singh Bahadur is like the moon. Those who try to spit at the moon will soon regret it when their own spit lands back on their face.

People do not realize how much Paap they are burdening themselves under by doing Nindya of a Brahmgiani like Baba Ji. We had some Nindaks tried to do the same to Sant Jee but no one listens to them anymore. Same is with Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. Baba Jee is very much respected by the Sikh masses as a spotless Sikh personality. And God willing, Baba Jee's memory and prestige will be enhanced even more in future

I replied back to you on a similar discussion regarding this particular topic. There, you ran away with your tail between your legs when I put up an audio clip in which Sant Jarnail Singh Ji concurs with Bhangu's perception of Baba Banda Singh. Want me to put it up one more time?

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1 hour ago, Mahakaal96 said:

As opposed to the paap you burdened yourself with when you did maha nindya of Baba Binod Singh..... when you was challenged you ran away from this site with your tail between your legs. There's hukamname from Mata Sundar Ji telling the sangat to not follow Banda anymore as he went of the path of gurmat. Rattan Singh Bhangu was from a family of great gursikhs, he's a much more reliable source then any of these other modern 'historians'. 

Why would I respect the person who disobeyed his leader at a critical time, got Jageer from the Mughals and then used his power and influence to get his son freed from Mughal captivity while letting hundreds of Singh's get Shaheed in Delhi. He was a Santa Singh of his time period. 

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1 hour ago, 13Mirch said:

I replied back to you on a similar discussion regarding this particular topic. There, you ran away with your tail between your legs when I put up an audio clip in which Sant Jarnail Singh Ji concurs with Bhangu's perception of Baba Banda Singh. Want me to put it up one more time?

Ran away is not the correct term. I have begun to write less on this forum due to lack of time since last year.  

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19 minutes ago, Jonny101 said:

Why would I respect the person who disobeyed his leader at a critical time, got Jageer from the Mughals and then used his power and influence to get his son freed from Mughal captivity while letting hundreds of Singh's get Shaheed in Delhi. He was a Santa Singh of his time period. 

Baba Binod Singh didn't disobey anyone, he was never under the command of Banda, rather, as per the wishes of Guru Mahraj Banda was under the command of Panj Singh, one of whom was Baba Binod Singh. If anyone disobeyed, it was Banda when he considered himself above the Khalsa.

Nawab Kapur Singh and the panth accepted jageer from the Mughals to, I suppose you consider him as a 'baba Santa singh of his time'. 

The bottom line is, you know nothing about raj neeti.

Answer @13Mirch, do you want him to put up the audio clip in which Sant Jarnail Singh agrees with the perception of Banda as depicted by Rattan Singh Bhangu? 

Why is there a hukamnama from Mata Sundri Ji commanding all sikhs to abandon Banda because he had abandoned gurmat? 

According to you, Baba Binod Singh was wrong, Mata Sundri Ji was wrong, Rattan Singh Bhangu was wrong & Sant Jarnail Singh was wrong..... but you and your modern historians are right..... clown!!

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5 hours ago, Jonny101 said:

Finally, someone has done a good job in defending Baba Ji. Although I think they could have done even more but even a little bit is good in defending Baba Ji. many snatanis will not like this one bit. It is understandable since they have tried very hard to demonize Baba Ji with lies and pure Nindya. But Baba Banda Singh Bahadur is like the moon. Those who try to spit at the moon will soon regret it when their own spit lands back on their face.

People do not realize how much Paap they are burdening themselves under by doing Nindya of a Brahmgiani like Baba Ji. We had some Nindaks tried to do the same to Sant Jee but no one listens to them anymore. Same is with Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. Baba Jee is very much respected by the Sikh masses as a spotless Sikh personality. And God willing, Baba Jee's memory and prestige will be enhanced even more in future

I think it is very wrong to think that people somehow diminish or disrespect Banda Singh Bahadhur ji because of the contents of PP. I certainly don't. 

What PP gives us is one warts and all perspective of events. It's invaluable as a Sikh source and instead of of white-washing everything, shows us that even respected and awesome leaders like Banda Singh faced their own complex issues during their leadership. 

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On 13/07/2017 at 7:11 PM, dallysingh101 said:

The section on Banda Singh (at the end of volume one) will blow your mind. It isn't too long either. 

 

Here it is, for whenever you are ready:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/54832175/Vol-1-SRI-GUR-PANTH-PRAKASH-by-Rattan-Singh-Bhangoo-Trans-Kulwant-Singh

I was more interested in shahadat of Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib. 

I couldn't find anything about shaheedi of Bhai Mati das, Bhai sati das and Bhai dayala ji . Considering this was written by a sikh of 18th century, how could he miss the shaheedi of 3 sikhs while mentioning shaheedi of Guru Teg bahadar ji ?

 

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14 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I was more interested in shahadat of Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib. 

I couldn't find anything about shaheedi of Bhai Mati das, Bhai sati das and Bhai dayala ji . Considering this was written by a sikh of 18th century, how could he miss the shaheedi of 3 sikhs while mentioning shaheedi of Guru Teg bahadar ji ?

 

It's the same with Baba Deep Singh ji. Unfortunately I can't ask Mr. Bhangu about his omissions, but I appreciate what he did leave us. 

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1 hour ago, dallysingh101 said:

It's the same with Baba Deep Singh ji. Unfortunately I can't ask Mr. Bhangu about his omissions, but I appreciate what he did leave us. 

I know i shouldn't be saying this but I wonder sometimes what the actual history is . Have we overglorified our history ? I wonder sometimes, but i quickly ask my mind to STFU lol because it might sow seeds of atheism and un-sharda towards guru sahib in my mind and i don't want that. 

Besides why would it matter if , say, for the sake of argument, it was only Guru Teg bahadur ji who got shaheedi and there were no 3 sikhs with him , and similar incidents in sikh history. Or perhaps Baba Deep Singh ji didn't fight with his head on his hand.  Why would it matter and why should it matter to us ?

As long as these examples help us be better in sikhi, we should overlook them. 

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi

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57 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I know i shouldn't be saying this but I wonder sometimes what the actual history is . Have we overglorified our history ? I wonder sometimes, but i quickly ask my mind to STFU lol because it might sow seeds of atheism and un-sharda towards guru sahib in my mind and i don't want that. 

Besides why would it matter if , say, for the sake of argument, it was only Guru Teg bahadur ji who got shaheedi and there were no 3 sikhs with him , and similar incidents in sikh history. Or perhaps Baba Deep Singh ji didn't fight with his head on his hand.  Why would it matter and why should it matter to us ?

As long as these examples help us be better in sikhi, we should overlook them. 

I think there is a big problem with any reductionalist approach.  I think acting like we could know everything is the depth of stupidity myself. History is fascinating and interesting, especially when we find new things out. It also depends on how you use it. Let's take the Banda Singh example:

Person 1 might say: "Oh, that's disrespectful to Banda Singh, these writers were motivated for x,y reasons. etc. etc."

Person 2 might say: "Well, we've got fascinating information here, we get to expand our language skills reading this stuff (a continual struggle for the diaspora). It keeps us away from other waste of time stuff like watching BB. Also (crucially) we've got a non-whitewashed example of leadership  during a crisis in the narrative  and we could analyse many of the issues that come up from this and learn from them."

 I'd say people who have problems which such accounts generally do so because they've turned our puratan ancestors into some sort of demi-gods (which I note is post annexation phenomena) and have dehumanised them and in light of this, so now they cannot grasp the importance of the writings because it conflicts with their preconceived notions. The Singh Sabha approach to historiography is largely responsible for this, because many of those people (I imagine through close contact and education with christians and anglos during the colonised period) imbibed their values and worldviews and judged their own ancestors in light of their 'education' or mental conditioning.

What shocks me is that people don't grasp that if hypothetically today, we had to fight it out as a community, we are pretty much guaranteed to see similar issues of some people not being happy with any leader, and differences arising. This will inevitably lead to fractures ala Bandai and Tat Khalsa. One key thing to take from the narrative, is that despite that, Singhs still persevered. 

Another key fact that Bhangu's critics fail to recognise is that Bhangu himself narrates how later (after Banda's demise) when the going got super tough with the moghuls, he records how the Tat Khalsa lamented Banda Singh's loss and wailed about how if he was still there, he'd had dealt with the moghuls and they wouldn't have been suffering like they were. 

Edited by dallysingh101

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3 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think there is a big problem with any reductionalist approach.  I think acting like we could know everything is the depth of stupidity myself. History is fascinating and interesting, especially when we find new things out. It also depends on how you use it. Let's take the Banda Singh example:

Person 1 might say: "Oh, that's disrespectful to Banda Singh, these writers were motivated for x,y reasons. etc. etc."

Person 2 might say: "Well, we've got fascinating information here, we get to expand our language skills reading this stuff (a continual struggle for the diaspora). It keeps us away from other waste of time stuff like watching BB. Also (crucially) we've got a non-whitewashed example of leadership  during a crisis in the narrative  and we could analyse many of the issues that come up from this and learn from them."

 I'd say people who have problems which such accounts generally do so because they've turned our puratan ancestors into some sort of demi-gods (which I note is post annexation phenomena) and have dehumanised them and in light of this, so now they cannot grasp the importance of the writings because it conflicts with their preconceived notions. The Singh Sabha approach to historiography is largely responsible for this, because many of those people (I imagine through close contact and education with christians and anglos during the colonised period) imbibed their values and worldviews and judged their own ancestors in light of their 'education' or mental conditioning.

What shocks me is that people don't grasp that if hypothetically today, we had to fight it out as a community, we are pretty much guaranteed to see similar issues of some people not being happy with any leader, and differences arising. This will inevitably lead to fractures ala Bandai and Tat Khalsa. One key thing to take from the narrative, is that despite that, Singhs still persevered. 

Another key fact that Bhangu's critics fail to recognise is that Bhangu himself narrates how later (after Banda's demise) when the going got super tough with the moghuls, he records how the Tat Khalsa lamented Banda Singh's loss and wailed about how if he was still there, he'd had dealt with the moghuls and they wouldn't have been suffering like they were. 

There was an Ardass performed for Baba Ji's chardi kala at Sri Darbar Sahib by the Tat Khalsa.

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On 12/07/2017 at 9:37 PM, dallysingh101 said:

Bhangu's Panth Prakash is also a great source on Banda Singh Bahadhur. 

There is this strong tendency by many apnay to whitewash (essentially rewrite) history to make it inline with some sort of preconceived (usually romanticised) image they have in their head. I think this way of thinking stems from victorian/anglo/protestant christian values  from the colonial period (that people have imbibed), because prior to that, indigenous Sikh historiography had no problems with warts and all accounts of Sikh history. After the 'annexation' Sikh historians all of a sudden felt compelled to start rewriting/hiding stuff. After a century of that, we've ended up in a strange position where we are overly suspicious of our own pre-colonial literature and whilst our ancestors had no problem with the contents, people today struggle to accept them.  

Today dolly aka moni is saying this about Baba Band Singb.  In several years he will take biased and/ alter data to say Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa is wrong in some fashion.  Panth Parkash is not accepted in totality.  Moni only accepts those part that hurt Sikhs. Gurmukhs only accept that is according to Gurbani.

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13 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

Today dolly aka moni is saying this about Baba Band Singb.  In several years he will take biased and/ alter data to say Sant Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa is wrong in some fashion.  Panth Parkash is not accepted in totality.  Moni only accepts those part that hurt Sikhs. Gurmukhs only accept that is according to Gurbani.

If reading what another Singh historian wrote about 200 years ago is enough to 'hurt' a Sikh, they must be really weak minded. 

Stop crying at every little thing for your own sake. 

Edited by dallysingh101

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