AjeetSinghPunjabi

Would you call our moneh boys "sikhs" ?

158 posts in this topic

On 27/06/2017 at 9:49 PM, Kira said:

I wasn't referring to Bhagat Sain. I was referring to Bhai Dhinga, the barber.  The concept of keeping Kesh was started from Guru Nanak Dev Ji, yet an Ordinary barbar is described as being liberated here. By your logic he wouldn't be considered a Sikh surely purely based on his profession. Bhai Dhinga was an amritdhari because he took Charan Pahul, yet he served the Guru DESPITE doing something modern day Sikhs consider a Kureit. The verse is below for you to read and decipher. 

ਨਾਈ ਧਿੰਙ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਿ ਕੁਟੰਬੁ ਤਰਾਵੈ।
 

The rehat of kesh and Charana pahull did indeed start with the first Guru,  no doubt about it. Bhai Dhinga ji was a sikh who had also accepted the Charana Pahull of the Guru and was a true sikh before achieving liberation, don't forget.

I consider Bhai Dhinga ji a Guru's sikh because he had surrendered to the Charana P and lived his life according to the sikh code in those days. Bhai Dhinga ji was an amrittari according to the rehat of Charana P of his day and age. In those days it was not considered a Kureit to work as a barber once someone had accepted the Charana Pahull of the Guru. It became a kureit after the codification of the Sikh dharma, when the tenth Guru issued forth an edict of Guru Maniyo Granth and the requirment of Kandey Pahull. You were not meant to cut your hair in any way  once you had taken Kandey Pahull and if you did, it was considered a kureit and one had to go in the presence of 5 beloveds.  There was no such requirement in the times of Bhai Dhinga ji.

The edict of the tenth Guru was meant to provide bond among the sikhs as well as provide an ethical code of conduct for them to live by. According to this edict every person that followed sikhi or laid claims to sikh identity had to be amrittari and saabat surat irrespective of his or her profession.

Guru Nanak Sahib ji founded a monotheistic religion. As more and more people turned to sikhi, in order to prevent its traditions, ceremonies, beliefs, Banies and history from risk of misinterpretaion, corruption or dilution the beloved tenth Guru codified it into a common body of scripture, the SGGS and blessed us with many more other Granths which contain his exquisite Banies. The sublimity of style in which they are written is beyond awesome.

To judge our exalted Bhagats and sikhs prior to this codification would be wrong. They were truly liberated and exalted souls  and no one has the right to judge them according to post codification period in the sikh history. These great sikhs existed prior to the post codification rehat.

To be continued............

Bhai Dhinga Ji was undeniably a preeiminent sikh as he had imbibed the charana pahull of the first Guru which was traditional at the time plus he meditated upon one God.

The tradition of charana Pahull later transformed into kandey pahull by the time of the tenth Guru, which required all sikhs to have uncut hair and a dastar to protect it. I seriously think, if a barber becomes amrittari then he or she should never work as a barber. It will be a kureit. But then he or she will not be identitied as a sikh unless he or she has received the charana pahull of the SGGS which is not the norm and does not exist.

Same applies to all monas claiming to be sikhs!  They are not sikhs in my books because they have not surrendered to either one of the requirements to be accepted in the sikh faith. Charana Pahull has been replaced by Kandey Pahull and don't forget this is the ONLY rehat in this day and age a person can lay claims to his membership of this great religion of the world.

People that are monas, have not yet taken the kandey Pahull are not sikhs, end of.

 

 

 

 

Edited by muscleman

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4 minutes ago, muscleman said:

The rehat of kesh and Charana pahull did indeed start with the first Guru,  no doubt about it. Bhai Dhinga ji was a sikh who had also accepted the Charana Pahull of the Guru and was a true sikh before achieving liberation, don't forget.

I consider Bhai Dhinga ji a Guru's sikh because he had surrendered to the Charana P and lived his life according to the sikh code in those days. Bhai Dhinga ji was an amrittari according to the rehat of Charana P of his day and age. In those days it was not considered a Kureit to work as a barber once someone had accepted the Charana Pahull of the Guru. I became a kureit after the codification of the Sikh dharma, when the tenth Guru issued forth an edict of Guru Maniyo Granth and the requirment of Kandey Pahull. You were not meant to cut your hair in any way  once you had taken Kandey Pahull and if you did, it was considered a kureit and one had to go in the presence of 5 beloveds.  There was no such requirement in the times of Bhai Dhinga ji. xquisite

The edict of the tenth Guru was meant to provide bond among the sikhs as well as provide an ethical code of conduct for them to live by. According to this edict every person that followed sikhi or laid claims to sikh identity had to be amrittari and saabat surat irrespective of his or her profession.

Guru Nanak Sahib ji founded a monotheistic religion. As more and more people turned to sikhi, in order to prevent its traditions, ceremonies, beliefs, Banies and history from risk of misinterpretaion, corruption or dilution the beloved tenth Guru codified it into a common body of scripture, the SGGS and blessed us with many more other Granths which contain his exquisite Banies. The sublimity of style in which they are written is beyond awesome.

To judge our exalted Bhagats and sikhs prior to this codification would be wrong. They were truly liberated and exalted souls  and no one has the right to judge them according to post codification period in the sikh history. These great sikhs existed prior to the post codification rehat.

 

To be continued....................

Keep it simple : There're many ways to truth . Sikhi is just one of them ! 

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32 minutes ago, muscleman said:

The rehat of kesh and Charana pahull did indeed start with the first Guru,  no doubt about it. Bhai Dhinga ji was a sikh who had also accepted the Charana Pahull of the Guru and was a true sikh before achieving liberation, don't forget.

I consider Bhai Dhinga ji a Guru's sikh because he had surrendered to the Charana P and lived his life according to the sikh code in those days. Bhai Dhinga ji was an amrittari according to the rehat of Charana P of his day and age. In those days it was not considered a Kureit to work as a barber once someone had accepted the Charana Pahull of the Guru. It became a kureit after the codification of the Sikh dharma, when the tenth Guru issued forth an edict of Guru Maniyo Granth and the requirment of Kandey Pahull. You were not meant to cut your hair in any way  once you had taken Kandey Pahull and if you did, it was considered a kureit and one had to go in the presence of 5 beloveds.  There was no such requirement in the times of Bhai Dhinga ji.

The edict of the tenth Guru was meant to provide bond among the sikhs as well as provide an ethical code of conduct for them to live by. According to this edict every person that followed sikhi or laid claims to sikh identity had to be amrittari and saabat surat irrespective of his or her profession.

Guru Nanak Sahib ji founded a monotheistic religion. As more and more people turned to sikhi, in order to prevent its traditions, ceremonies, beliefs, Banies and history from risk of misinterpretaion, corruption or dilution the beloved tenth Guru codified it into a common body of scripture, the SGGS and blessed us with many more other Granths which contain his exquisite Banies. The sublimity of style in which they are written is beyond awesome.

To judge our exalted Bhagats and sikhs prior to this codification would be wrong. They were truly liberated and exalted souls  and no one has the right to judge them according to post codification period in the sikh history. These great sikhs existed prior to the post codification rehat.

 

To be continued....................

It was always a Kureit, now you're just implying that Bhai Dhinga Ji was knowingly violating a rehit, No true Gursikh would do that as they would follow everything to the dot. All you've done here is shown that it existed as rehit (you admitted it) and then said there was no such requirement, if it was within rehit then it was always a requirement. Guru Gobind Singh Ji didn't up and decide one day it was suddenly a Kureit, it was one from day one. Period. All Guru Gobind Singh Ji did was make sure future generations knew too by scribing it into his beloved Granths too. The only thing Guru Gobind Singh Ji did in the Amrit Sanchar was give all his  spiritual and temporal powers to his Panth and initiated using a Khanda rather than Charan Pahul.

The Rishis during Satyug kept Kesh, they considered it a cardinal sin (Kureit) to remove it. The practice isn't new and Guru Nanak Dev Ji kept Kesh and encouraged everyone to do so as well. There's quite a few JanamSakhis of Guru Sahib Ji that say keeping Kesh is of the utmost important and ordering his Sikhs to keep them. So the question arises why a Barbar is praised here and liberated. 

I disagree on comparing Sikhs and Bhagats before the codification, The Code has always been there. You can compare Sikhs of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji sine they all followed the same rehit, the only differences was the Sanchar done, perhaps you could argue that Guru Gobind Singh Ji's mandatory military training too. 

Edited by Kira

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9 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

LOL. I forgot to mention this earlier . The answer to your question is a resounding YES ! 

Now I don't want a monnah to tell me otherwise or give me a lecture on morality 

I don't wan't a gandu telling me anything about morality and Sikhi either. 

Mincing queen is doing EVERYTHING and insulting everyone trying to be centre of attention again. 

And don't worry, if the afghans hypothetically invaded Punjab, you'd fit the role of one of their 'dancing boys' perfectly. 

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6 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

 

I don't wan't a gandu telling me anything about morality and Sikhi either. 

Mincing queen is doing EVERYTHING and insulting everyone trying to be centre of attention again. 

And don't worry, if the afghans hypothetically invaded Punjab, you'd fit the role of one of their 'dancing boys' perfectly. 

LOL , a guy who probably slept with a dozen girls is calling me gaandu . Excuse me dude . Get off your high horse already. You straight men really have no sharam , do you ? after doing tons of sexual anarth, you guys get to say "eww" to the gays ? 

You straight guys sitting on high golden pedestals of hetero-patriarchy are long overdue . It has been long enough that you sit on your throne and throw your left overs for homosexuals and other persecuted groups to eat on . 

This is the reason I support feminism . Feminist + LGBT + liberal-minded straight males , we shall overthrow this takht of hetero-patriarchy forever . ^_^

PS : I don't live in punjab ! 

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi

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40 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Keep it simple : There're many ways to truth . Sikhi is just one of them ! 

No there is not. *sigh* if there was then Akaal Purkh himself wouldn't have descended to sort everything out.

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Just now, Kira said:

No there is not. *sigh* if there was then Akaal Purkh himself wouldn't have descended to sort everything out.

Sikhi IMHO is not about "my path is the right one. rest ones are wrong" . This sounds like an abrahamic faith, not sikhi IMHO 

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Just now, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Sikhi IMHO is not about "my path is the right one. rest ones are wrong" . This sounds like an abrahamic faith, not sikhi IMHO 

If the rest were right then do you really think there would be any need for Sikhi? there's truth within them, but also corruption. Hence why Guru Sahib came, the stupid argument that "all paths lead to God" is completely redundant. I'm 100% sure the Aztec priests who performed human sacrifices are definitely enlightened beings (!).

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5 minutes ago, Kira said:

If the rest were right then do you really think there would be any need for Sikhi? there's truth within them, but also corruption. Hence why Guru Sahib came, the stupid argument that "all paths lead to God" is completely redundant. I'm 100% sure the Aztec priests who performed human sacrifices are definitely enlightened beings (!).

If the rest were wrong, SGGS would never have true definitions of hindu and muslim. These faiths were corrupted over time  and initial meanings of rituals lost. 

 

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13 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

 

I don't wan't a gandu telling me anything about morality and Sikhi either. 

Mincing queen is doing EVERYTHING and insulting everyone trying to be centre of attention again. 

And don't worry, if the afghans hypothetically invaded Punjab, you'd fit the role of one of their 'dancing boys' perfectly. 

Moni discriminating against homosexuals now. There is no end to moni's hate

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31 minutes ago, Kira said:

It was always a Kureit, now you're just implying that Bhai Dhinga Ji was knowingly violating a rehit, No true Gursikh would do that as they would follow everything to the dot. All you've done here is shown that it existed as rehit (you admitted it) and then said there was no such requirement, if it was within rehit then it was always a requirement. Guru Gobind Singh Ji didn't up and decide one day it was suddenly a Kureit, it was one from day one. Period. All Guru Gobind Singh Ji did was make sure future generations knew too by scribing it into his beloved Granths too. The only thing Guru Gobind Singh Ji did in the Amrit Sanchar was give all his  spiritual and temporal powers to his Panth and initiated using a Khanda rather than Charan Pahul.

The Rishis during Satyug kept Kesh, they considered it a cardinal sin (Kureit) to remove it. The practice isn't new and Guru Nanak Dev Ji kept Kesh and encouraged everyone to do so as well. There's quite a few JanamSakhis of Guru Sahib Ji that say keeping Kesh is of the utmost important and ordering his Sikhs to keep them. So the question arises why a Barbar is praised here and liberated. 

I disagree on comparing Sikhs and Bhagats before the codification, The Code has always been there. You can compare Sikhs of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji sine they all followed the same rehit, the only differences was the Sanchar done, perhaps you could argue that Guru Gobind Singh Ji's mandatory military training too. 

I know that charana pahull was mandatory but not too sure about kesh. The rehat of keeping kesh became mandatory with the creation of Khalsa. Post codification amrit sanchaar and kesh and shastra vidiya all formed a mandatory part of the Khalsa Panth.

Edited by muscleman
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9 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

Moni discriminating against homosexuals now. There is no end to moni's hate

Seriously ! 

I tell you if a rehitvaan nitnemi gursikh rebukes my homosexuality , I would touch his feet ! 

atleast he's sincere. What to say to hypocrites you go to naai di dukaan and later head on to a party in their leather jacket , drinking from a can of beer and god knows how many chicks per night and then they have the audacity to lift a finger at gays , when in reality he himself deserves chittars. And then these guys later go on next day to their male buddies and say how much they scored that night . Too much of rights I guess ? 

They're able to do all this , because heterosexuality is acceptable. They're born such , so they exploit it , unaware that heterosexual misconduct of this life is seed of becoming homosexual in next one .:rofl

 

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi

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1 hour ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Seriously ! 

I tell you if a rehitvaan nitnemi gursikh rebukes my homosexuality , I would touch his feet ! 

atleast he's sincere. What to say to hypocrites you go to naai di dukaan and later head on to a party in their leather jacket , drinking from a can of beer and god knows how many chicks per night and then they have the audacity to lift a finger at gays , when in reality he himself deserves chittars. And then these guys later go on next day to their male buddies and say how much they scored that night . Too much of rights I guess ? 

They're able to do all this , because heterosexuality is acceptable. They're born such , so they exploit it , unaware that heterosexual misconduct of this life is seed of becoming homosexual in next one .:rofl

 

He is not in rehit....cuts his hair swears every second, insults amritdharis because he doesn't have the guts to keep hair uncut.  He's a moni not a Mona.  Huge difference between both of them. 20 odd years he has been on forums distorting Sikh history for his minds pleasure.  He puts monas to shame who are trying to advance in sikhi.  

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8 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

He is not in rehit....cuts his hair swears every second, insults amritdharis because he doesn't have the guts to keep hair uncut.  He's a moni not a Mona.  Huge difference between both of them. 20 odd years he has been on forums distorting Sikh history for his minds pleasure.  He puts monas to shame who are trying to advance in sikhi.  

Lets not berate him too much ! That might put him off of sikhi more. 

Whats diff between moni and mona 

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50 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Lets not berate him too much ! That might put him off of sikhi more. 

Whats diff between moni and mona 

Put him off of sikhi? He's doesn't care to be part of sikhi.  He has pure hate for sikhi.  Anyone who has distorted Sikh history, he will promote.

Keep reading his post to learn the difference.  I do seva along side Mona and none are anything like this guy.  They have respect for gursikh, Sikh history, and strive to be better Sikhs.  Huge difference from moni.  

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46 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

He has pure hate for sikhi

I don't think he hates sikhi. Maybe a bit off the track , like most of our youth thesedays but def not a bad-wisher IMHO.

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This entire thread is the reason for so much divide in the Panth, not because of Amritdhari or Non-Amritdhari conflict, (which I don't know much about), but because everyone wants to be important one way or another. In the olden days, (around pre-partition of Punjab), there were times when not only Sehajdharis, Keshdharis, and Amritdharis would get along fine, but also between the Sikhs with the Non-Sikhs. (Hindus and Muslims.) Even though those days are over and may never come back, we shouldn't go further down the destructive path of excluding, if they want to grow in the path one day. 

My own view on the topic is Amritdharis as a whole are more devout than the average Sehajdhari or Keshdhari, and Keshdharis are slightly more devout than Sehajdharis as a whole, but even a Sehajdhari could be the next big Mahapurukh or something. We all have bigger problems than any distinctions we want to make.

(Also nobody should assume that I'm downplaying the need for the need for Amrit or keeping Kesh, both are very important, but when we have people going around with a superiority complex we need to address the issue.)

All in all, nobody except Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji-Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the ideal of supreme perfection.

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6 hours ago, Kira said:

Depends how you define Khalsa bro. There's many definitions, if we go by Bhagat Kabir Ji's definition then yes they were Khalsa. Albiet ones who weren't imitated with Khanda da Pahul. 

That is true Singh, I use the term in my posts to refer to the army of the Sikh Panth. I stress this definition because it reminds the Khalsa not to shirk his or her military obligations, as well as the importance of being trained shastardhari.

 

8 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Guru Gobind singh ji said "Khalsa mero roop hai khaas " (My special form is khalsa). but other panths were also guru roop , albeit not khaas . Udasis , nirmale are the 2 that comes to my mind. 

But singh sabha got them out . I don't blame singh sabha though. It was need of the time 

The Singh Sabha threw the baby out with the bathwater in my opinion bro. One of the movement's preoccupations was dealing with corrupt mahants, but it failed to apprehend that Mahant does not equal Udasi/Nirmala. Moreover, it hardly succeeded in this aim in the long term. So many of the 'Khalsas' currently running Sikh institutions are basically mahants come again, allowing manmat to take place in Guru ghars just as their predecessors in the 19th century did.  

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1 hour ago, Balkaar said:

The Singh Sabha threw the baby out with the bathwater in my opinion bro. One of the movement's preoccupations was dealing with corrupt mahants, but it failed to apprehend that Mahant does not equal Udasi/Nirmala. Moreover, it hardly succeeded in this aim in the long term. So many of the 'Khalsas' currently running Sikh institutions are basically mahants come again, allowing manmat to take place in Guru ghars just as their predecessors in the 19th century did.  

Badal was the ultimate outcome of the SS movement sadly. 

What we've ended up with is a family dynasty type scenario.  

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10 hours ago, muscleman said:

I know that charana pahull was mandatory but not too sure about kesh. The rehat of keeping kesh became mandatory with the creation of Khalsa. Post codification amrit sanchaar and kesh and shastra vidiya all formed a mandatory part of the Khalsa Panth.

Bro you seem like an intelligent person so do the maths. If the other Kureits were forbidden during 1st Master-9th Master then obviously cutting Kes was too, I strongly recommend you read the various (and im talking a-lot) of threads there about Kesh being needed before the introduction of Khanda Da Pahul. Which is why I find all this so fascinating. 

Edited by Kira

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2 hours ago, puzzled said:

Im not amritdhari so i might think differently, but i think if one has a relationship with guru ji then no one can decide if they are sikh or not. plenty of moneh have a lot of respect for sikhi and plenty of amritdhari are corrupt these days.   who is anyone to decide who is sikh and who is not ...

 

 

A person aiming to be the top (gursikh), which Gurbani tells a person to aim for, will not pull at straws to compete with those who are corrupt.  It just says you are corrupt as well but not as corrupt.  End result you are corrupt.  Define relationship according to gurbani not according to your beliefs

Edited by Akalifauj

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3 hours ago, puzzled said:

Im not amritdhari so i might think differently, but i think if one has a relationship with guru ji then no one can decide if they are sikh or not. plenty of moneh have a lot of respect for sikhi and plenty of amritdhari are corrupt these days.   who is anyone to decide who is sikh and who is not ...

 

 

True

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On 7/2/2017 at 6:58 AM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

So , @ipledgeblue you're saying a monah can do paath without taking amrit, but can't do archery , shooting, horse-riding ? lol .. 

no not saying that at all. Would actually be good if everyone learnt stuff then just limiting it to amrit dhari Singhs. A good influence overall.

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On 03/07/2017 at 1:43 AM, puzzled said:

Im not amritdhari so i might think differently, but i think if one has a relationship with guru ji then no one can decide if they are sikh or not. plenty of moneh have a lot of respect for sikhi and plenty of amritdhari are corrupt these days.   who is anyone to decide who is sikh and who is not ...

 

 

having respect for sikhi means little , I mean atheists have been known to say that out of all faiths they respect Sikhi the most. Sikhi  is a  'doing' rather than 'being'  faith , when you stop doing sikhi you stop being sikh  simple as that

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