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Big_Tera

How important is the turban?

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11 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Gurbani speaks on the dastar.  Why are you scared to ask Guru Sahib?  Guru Sahib does not bite.  Since you have many questions like this.  It shows you are lazy to read Gurbani and/or you could careless what Guru sahib says and need some entertainment in life and come on forums to get this entertainment.  The wisdom from Gurbani is limitless.  Yet you choose to ask these questions to limited beings on forums who you don't know and very well could be just lazy as you.  A Sikh will learn from his Guru and present the teachings.  Today you don't even need to read every Ang of Gurbani.  You can type in key words into Gurbani search engines and find majority of the Gurbani written on dastar.  Instead of doing this you act like a whiney little school girl.....why can't I ask questions to manmukhs.......I want manmukh answers and no answer from the Guru.....leave me alone....waaaah waaah......

Looks like you want to turn this debate into a gutter and trash talk like you are use to doing. This must be a sign of your mentality resorting to school yard name calling. I wont bother stooping to your low level. This is a forum with many people of knowledge.

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17 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

To be khalsa you undoubtedly need to fully accept the responsibilities of upholding the maryada that comes with it.. But to be a Sikh dastaar is not a requirement... 

The question was quite simple.. To paraphrase 'Is one a Sikh if one doesn't have a dastaar'? I would say the resounding answer is yes they can be.. 

Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth 

 

Dashmesh pita makes that the only requirement.. We should not conflate the term Sikh with khalsa 

Thanks that was a straighforward answer I was looking for. 

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1 hour ago, Big_Tera said:

Thanks that was a straighforward answer I was looking for. 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to Sukhvirk especially if he is the same Sukhvirk that spreads misinformation and other manmat views like support for interfaith anand karajs (I have seen someone with the same name arguing in support of interfaith anand karajs).

So according to mr Virk...the only requirment that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji makes of his Sikhs is " Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth  "

Now a Hukum is literally translated a "command"...Now let me refer you to the 52 Hukums of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj...which you may Google at your own leisure for this particular topic refer to the below hukum :

35. Dastaar binaa nahee rehnaa - Never be without the turban, wear it always.

and also:

38. Sir munae noo kanaiaa nahee daenee. Uos ghar daeve jithae Akal Purukh dee sikhee ha, jo karza-ai naa hovae, bhalae subhaa da hovae, bibaekee atae gyanvaan hovae - Do not given a daughter's hand in marriage to a shaven one. Give her to a household where the Undying divine personification Akal purakh and tenets of Sikhism are respected, to household without debt, of a pleasing nature, which is disciplined and educated.

Sikh Rehat Maryada clearly stipultes that removal of hair is a cardinal sin, "bujajr kureight". To say that the only requirment Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji made of Sikhs is simply " Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth  " Is hypocrisy at it's best,

Guru Gobind Singh Ji actually said, those Sikhs that do not follow rehit are not his Sikhs and he has no love for them:

Guru Gobind Singh's words; Rehit Binaa Neh Sikh Kehavai, Rehit Binaa Dar Chotaa Khhaavai This means that: Without the Rehat (the code of conduct) he should not be called a Sikh. Without the Rehat, the doors are closed in his face.

A further commentary is offered below from Sikharchives:

Commentary:   The Sikh turban is the most easily recognizable symbol of the Sikh Nation. It is explicitly mandated by Guru Gobind Singh.   It is a political device that is meant to give the Sikhs a different appearance.  It symbolizes the Sikhs as a nation and as a separate race and people.  Even though the Sikhs do not have a Sikh Homeland as long as they maintain the Turban they have a virtual homeland.  It must be clearly understood that the Sikh turban is an expression of Sikh political ideology.  It is said that the Sikh Nation rises up in it’s turban. A popular saying about the Sikh turban is : Ja Baghi Ja Badshah” – A person wearing the Sikh Turban is either a fugitive running away from the law or a King.  In order for Guru Gobind Singh’s dream of a Khalsa Nation to be shattered, the enemies of the Sikh Race must induce Sikhs to abandon the turban. The turban is that important and central to Sikh political ideology. With very rare exceptions, if you are not wearing a turban. you are not a true Sikh.

Be very careful of trolls, that post selected intrepretaions of baani to support their own misguided viewpoints or to support their own agendas.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cisco_Singh

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28 minutes ago, Cisco_Singh said:

I wouldn't pay too much attention to Sukhvirk especially if he is the same Sukhvirk that spreads misinformation and other manmat views like support for interfaith anand karajs (I have seen someone with the same name arguing in support of interfaith anand karajs).

So according to mr Virk...the only requirment that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji makes of his Sikhs is " Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth  "

Now a Hukum is literally translated a "command"...Now let me refer you to the 52 Hukums of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj...which you may Google at your own leisure for this particular topic refer to the below hukum :

35. Dastaar binaa nahee rehnaa - Never be without the turban, wear it always.

and also:

38. Sir munae noo kanaiaa nahee daenee. Uos ghar daeve jithae Akal Purukh dee sikhee ha, jo karza-ai naa hovae, bhalae subhaa da hovae, bibaekee atae gyanvaan hovae - Do not given a daughter's hand in marriage to a shaven one. Give her to a household where the Undying divine personification Akal purakh and tenets of Sikhism are respected, to household without debt, of a pleasing nature, which is disciplined and educated.

Sikh Rehat Maryada clearly stipultes that removal of hair is a cardinal sin, "bujajr kureight". To say that the only requirment Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji made of Sikhs is simply " Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth  " Is hypocrisy at it's best,

Guru Gobind Singh Ji actually said, those Sikhs that do not follow rehit are not his Sikhs and he has no love for them:

Guru Gobind Singh's words; Rehit Binaa Neh Sikh Kehavai, Rehit Binaa Dar Chotaa Khhaavai This means that: Without the Rehat (the code of conduct) he should not be called a Sikh. Without the Rehat, the doors are closed in his face.

A further commentary is offered below from Sikharchives:

Commentary:   The Sikh turban is the most easily recognizable symbol of the Sikh Nation. It is explicitly mandated by Guru Gobind Singh.   It is a political device that is meant to give the Sikhs a different appearance.  It symbolizes the Sikhs as a nation and as a separate race and people.  Even though the Sikhs do not have a Sikh Homeland as long as they maintain the Turban they have a virtual homeland.  It must be clearly understood that the Sikh turban is an expression of Sikh political ideology.  It is said that the Sikh Nation rises up in it’s turban. A popular saying about the Sikh turban is : Ja Baghi Ja Badshah” – A person wearing the Sikh Turban is either a fugitive running away from the law or a King.  In order for Guru Gobind Singh’s dream of a Khalsa Nation to be shattered, the enemies of the Sikh Race must induce Sikhs to abandon the turban. The turban is that important and central to Sikh political ideology. With very rare exceptions, if you are not wearing a turban. you are not a true Sikh.

Be very careful of trolls, that post selected intrepretaions of baani to support their own misguided viewpoints or to support their own agendas.

 

 

 

 

Well for someone who recommended to another not to pay me much attention,  you flatter me with the attention you yourself have paid me :) thank you 

 Before I go on may I firstly just bring to your attention..  21. Kisae dee ninda, chugalee, atae eirkhaa nahee karnee - Do not gossip nor slander, or be spiteful to anyone.

The irony... 

So my post was related to what we know... We know guru sahib made additions to Guru Granth Sahib ji including bani of the ninth master. Pointedly he didn't add any of his own verses. So he clearly saw the ggsj as having supreme authority to which he personally in his humility did not feel the need to add hukumnamas? I find this strange that dashmesh pita in all his wisdom left out something which you believe supercedes it's authority.. Are you genuinely suggesting that ggsj is incomplete? 

Now may I,  in the interest of expanding my own  limited knowledge see the sources of your references. I have no personal agenda I just haven't. 

By which  I mean where are the documents of hukumnama with guru sahibs seal.. I personally have seen a hand written hukumnama by guru sahib that is not listed in the 52 you reference. If you can point me in the right direction and show me a picture of said hukumnamas which in this day and age should not be really very difficult.. If you cannot supply evidence then are you not inadvertently saying that guru sahib in all his wisdom and prolific literary output some how forgot to have codified documents  that are now  being attributed to him? 

I've digressed the original post asked a simple question.. I provided a opinion, one which is with intelligent, rational, critical arguments I'm open to modifying.. 

Now just one additional and very interesting  observation I made of your statement is that of of you speaking of 'political Sikh ideology'.. I think your language speaks for itself as to who has the agenda? Political being the operative word 

SSA

 

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Dont get me wrong. This thread is not trying to discourage people from wearing the turban. 

Wearing it is great and something to be be proud of. It is showing allegence to our Gurus. 

But at the same time we should label moneh as not true Sikhs.

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On 6/11/2017 at 0:16 AM, Big_Tera said:

Is a person not a true Sikh unless he wears a turban?  What about those who wear one but do bad deeds. But you may have a mona who does good deeds. 

Which one is better?

First of all, if you were alive at the time of the 10th Guru, and Guru Sahib told you (in words) to keep your hair (or to do anything else), would you do so? I.e., do you accept or deny the authority of Guru Sahib? If you don't accept the authority of Guru Ji, there's no point in further discussion.

Secondly, in order to get a frame of reference, are you only doubting the turban?

Or are you doubting the injunction to keep sabat surat (complete form, including hair)?

Once we know the answers to these questions, we can move forward on a dialogue.

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1 hour ago, Big_Tera said:

Dont get me wrong. This thread is not trying to discourage people from wearing the turban. 

Wearing it is great and something to be be proud of. It is showing allegence to our Gurus. 

But at the same time we should label moneh as not true Sikhs.

This coward is trying to split Sikhs.  Must be dolly101 moni brother in law.  You coward, can't even read Gurbani and want to speak about Sikhi topics just so you can divide Sikhs.  

Every Sikh is learning from the Guru.  People without Sikh saroop will accept their wrong, Sikhs with lust problems will accept their mistakes and Sikhs with anger issues will accept their mistakes and so on. Sikhs will keep progressing and cowards like you will receive the proper punishment for your behavior.  

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6 minutes ago, BhForce said:

First of all, if you were alive at the time of the 10th Guru, and Guru Sahib told you (in words) to keep your hair (or to do anything else), would you do so? I.e., do you accept or deny the authority of Guru Sahib? If you don't accept the authority of Guru Ji, there's no point in further discussion.

Secondly, in order to get a frame of reference, are you only doubting the turban?

Or are you doubting the injunction to keep sabat surat (complete form, including hair)?

Once we know the answers to these questions, we can move forward on a dialogue.

I absolutely 100% agree with you. As I have said I haven't been shown that dashmesh pita unequivocally said the things you are attributing to him.. But I have limited knowledge and welcome any evidence of supporting documents that do support said statements.. I want to agree with you brother just show me the way.. I don't want to believe in hearsay we have as Sikhs been taught to hold the highest standards of truth and rationality.. The primary characteristic of onkaar is truth.. So when it comes to temporal historical assertions the burden of evidence should be quite easy.. Before we even explore the spiritual realm let us unequivocally accept what we know on what basis we have formed our opinions.. 

It really shouldn't be that hard for those amongst us who have performed khoj satisfied the burden of evidence to be brave enough to assert in Guru sahibs name what he said, what he wrote.. As a Sikh I am scared of attributing something to Guru sahib for which I have no evidence.. It's just hearsay otherwise.. Let's not forget about baba ram rai who changed just one word and was excommunicated.. 

Nevermind what some people here do on some threads.. E.g. Let's just for one moment accept that the hukumnama referenced above.. No. 38. Sir munae noo kanaiaa nahee daenee. Uos ghar daeve jithae Akal Purukh dee sikhee ha, jo karza-ai naa hovae, bhalae subhaa da hovae, bibaekee atae gyanvaan hovae - Do not given a daughter's hand in marriage to a shaven one. Give her to a household where the Undying divine personification Akal purakh and tenets of Sikhism are respected, to household without debt, of a pleasing nature, which is disciplined and educated

This statement attributed to Guru gobind Singh Ji as a hukumnama is sometimes articulated and translated as a Sikh should not give his daughter to a Muslim.. But it doesn't mention Muslim.. It only says one who has uncut hair. Going on it also talks about debt, that is in the same 'hukumnama' so does that mean someone with a mortgage, what about if you have karza on a car loan, or on the flip side earning karza on money in the bank 

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9 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

This coward is trying to split Sikhs.  Must be dolly101 moni brother in law.  You coward, can't even read Gurbani and want to speak about Sikhi topics just so you can divide Sikhs.  

Every Sikh is learning from the Guru.  People without Sikh saroop will accept their wrong, Sikhs with lust problems will accept their mistakes and Sikhs with anger issues will accept their mistakes and so on. Sikhs will keep progressing and cowards like you will receive the proper punishment for your behavior.  

Who is the lion and who is coward?

Nirbhau, nirvair .. There is no punishment.. Not realising the sweet nectar of truth is no punishment it's a self-inflicted prison called ignorance 

Edited by Sukhvirk1976
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On 14/06/2017 at 1:22 AM, Akalifauj said:

This coward is trying to split Sikhs.  Must be dolly101 moni brother in law.  You coward, can't even read Gurbani and want to speak about Sikhi topics just so you can divide Sikhs.  

Every Sikh is learning from the Guru.  People without Sikh saroop will accept their wrong, Sikhs with lust problems will accept their mistakes and Sikhs with anger issues will accept their mistakes and so on. Sikhs will keep progressing and cowards like you will receive the proper punishment for your behavior.  

lol

I'm the one 'trying to split Sikhs'.

If you had half a brain you would realise that your the one who is dividing Sikhs. You are saying non dastaar wearers are not even 'Sikhs'. Your putting people into two seperate camps by saying this and thus dividing us all and creating a wedge and unharmony amongst Sikhs.

I guess that is why they say the measure of stupidity is a bottomless pit.

 

Edited by Big_Tera
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On 6/12/2017 at 11:40 AM, MisterrSingh said:

When I was growing up, moneh were magnanimous enough to put up their hands and say, "Y'know, I just can't deal with growing kesh and the daily responsibility of tying a dastaar. It's my fault, nobody else. The problem lies within me." At least they were honest back then.

Nowadays, as with most things, the desire to subvert perfectly valid norms and practices in the pursuit of discovering the so-called truth that's been kept from society thanks to some vague overarching conspiracy of suppression and deception, means shifting responsibility and blame for the individual's defects onto those very norms and values that were given to us solely for our benefit. Now, these people wish to chip away at the integrity of scripture to find a loophole or flimsily worded justification that will enable, or, best of all, approve of their personal life choices. 

I've long suspected future generations of Sikhs will graduate to openly disparaging certain Sikh teachings because they struggle to adhere to those values. The Dasam Granth issue was a precursor of what's yet to come. The final issue that will tear apart Sikhs will be the 5Ks / Baisakhi issue, i.e. huge numbers of followers will openly turn their back on the requirement of kesh and the need to take amrit. That's going to be the final nail in the coffin. It will be relegated to a small devout minority of fundamentalists who'll eventually be sidelined as an extreme or orthodox sect. Mainstream Sikhi will be redrawn as a soft, pacifist, Jain-esque faith requiring the minimum of dedication and adherence. That's the plan, believe me.

Questioning narratives and beliefs is incredibly important. Sikhs wouldn't exist if one particular individual who emerged in 1469 hadn't questioned the fundamentals of their existence and society in general. Yet, that spirit of discovery is being used to denigrate and undermine the very fabric of our beliefs. It's happening all over the world with all manner of philosophies and systems. "This is too difficult, therefore it must be wrong, because I can't possibly be expected to chisel away at improving myself thereby arriving at a place where I meet these conditions." It's this same attitude that has gradually destroyed the integrity of those things that are conducive to a successful and healthy society.

Saying that, the other side of the argument also holds water. It's controversial and not many will want to hear it: it's too easy to appear as a devout Sikh. There's no threshold of quality, or measurement of discerning the content of character behind the external appearance. Literally anyone, even the vilest of humans, can dress up as a Sikh. 

The fact that you called Jainism a "soft" laid back religion... You lost all the _____ i had to offer in respect of your response, which though started awesomely, lost me, because Jainism is anything but soft as it is a strict religion with hardcore ideology that has been steadfast for centuries.

Now... Being a Sikh, definitely in the outwards sense, requires agreement with the panths rules as transcribed by bhai mani singh but lets not forget that that rehat marayada is a political act established under punjab sikh guradwara act in early 1900s and was drafted multiple times over multiple years to appeasement of various individuals (babas) and organizations and certain convinces of the rulers of the time. All i can say is believe in SGGS and focus on your ownself and rest leave to waheguru to decide and judge.

Edited by $ingh $oorma
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On 6/11/2017 at 1:01 AM, Big_Tera said:

Yes but whats is better to have a Sikh who does good deeds or someone who just wears a turban for the sake of it. 

I think there is a big misconception in our culture. ie we immediatley assume a turban wearing Sikh is somehow better. But are there actions not more important. I have come across many turban wearing Sikhs who smoke drink ect. Yet I know many mona who do not and are the complete opposite. So why respect someone just because he has a pagh on. It does not make them a better person inside. 

Wat stops those mona lisas from growing their hair then and keeping dastars or even taking amrit? 

If they are so good in their habits, and in alignment with sikhi values then i feel they're wasting wisdom by not implementing it. 

Keeping hair turban and taking amrit is not the end of it, but rather the beginning on a successful path. 

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I say that a turban or a dastar is very important for all sikhs whether they be khalsa or not. They must cover their kaysh with a turban this applies to both men and women and not just men.  Unless the women enoble themselves with a dastar there is no way their sons and daughters will do the same.  A dastar is to be worn by both to enoble themselves as opposed to decry or demean themselves by not wearing it. Every sikh should wear it and teach other sikhs to start wearing it too. Those that don't wear it look tawdry, crass, half-witted and not to mention, cloddish and  this applies to both men and women.

Edited by silverSingh

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On 2017-6-29 at 7:28 PM, silverSingh said:

I say that a turban or a dastar is very important for all sikhs whether they be khalsa or not. They must cover their kaysh with a turban this applies to both men and women and not just men.  Unless the women enoble themselves with a dastar there is no way their sons and daughters will do the same.  A dastar is to be worn by both to enoble themselves as opposed to decry or demean themselves by not wearing it. Every sikh should wear it and teach other sikhs to start wearing it too. Those that don't wear it look tawdry, crass, half-witted and not to mention, cloddish and  this applies to both men and women.

'Those that don't wear it look tawdry, crass, half-witted and not to mention, cloddish and  this applies to both men and women'

Are you for real? People who dont wear a turban look cloddish, half witted. 

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The turban is very important.There are several very useful life lessons which wearing a dastaar can impart to someone:

- Helps teach you not to care what people think (CONFIDENCE). I don't need to remind anyone that wearing a dastaar can be tough for a Sikh. Some people will immediately dislike you, laugh at you, abuse you or refuse to associate with you. But if you keep an open mind and learn to ignore this, you can build up a lot of confidence in yourself and in your identity. This is a very useful and very advantageous trait in a world full of sheeple who derive their entire sense of self-worth from how people they don't even care about perceive them. A person who is comfortable in their own skin can run rings around this weak-minded lot. 

- Forces you to stand by your principles. Another trait which puts you at an advantage over the billions of principle-prostitutes who aren't guided by anything other than personal greed and small-minded 'ambitions'. 

- Gives you a discipline. - The world is hectic, lots of people are in competition for jobs and resources. Many of these people are also quite lazy, avoiding hard work whenever they can, lacking meaningful or useful structure/regimes in their lives. Keeping kesh rehat forces you to be disciplined, this discipline is very useful in adult life and in the world of work. 

Of course one can acquire these traits without a dastaar, but I believe it gives a person a huge leg up.  This also isn't to say that everyone who does wear a turban possesses these qualities. 

Edited by Balkaar

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