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Big_Tera

How important is the turban?

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Is a person not a true Sikh unless he wears a turban?  What about those who wear one but do bad deeds. But you may have a mona who does good deeds. 

Which one is better?

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it must be important , because it is mentioned so much by dasmesh pita ji , our whole culture centres on the honour of a person being related to their head covering whether chunni or dastar. It is the signifier of sovereignty which also doubles as a political sign of rebellion (mughals were the only ones allowed to wear turbans) and flag of allegiance.

question: if one doesn't study  the lesson or follow the teacher's instruction is one  really a student?

question 2: if one isn't a student then can one realistically claim the title?

Edited by jkvlondon
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1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

it must be important , because it is mentioned so much by dasmesh pita ji , our whole culture centres on the honour of a person being related to their head covering whether chunni or dastar. It is the signifier of sovereignty which also doubles as a political sign of rebellion (mughals were the only ones allowed to wear turbans) and flag of allegiance.

question: if one doesn't study  the lesson or follow the teacher's instruction is one  really a student?

question 2: if one isn't a student then can one realistically claim the title?

Yes but whats is better to have a Sikh who does good deeds or someone who just wears a turban for the sake of it. 

I think there is a big misconception in our culture. ie we immediatley assume a turban wearing Sikh is somehow better. But are there actions not more important. I have come across many turban wearing Sikhs who smoke drink ect. Yet I know many mona who do not and are the complete opposite. So why respect someone just because he has a pagh on. It does not make them a better person inside. 

Edited by Big_Tera
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3 hours ago, Big_Tera said:

Is a person not a true Sikh unless he wears a turban?  What about those who wear one but do bad deeds. But you may have a mona who does good deeds. 

Which one is better?

You always have these questions.  But when will you start teaching your mind from Gurbani and then present what you learned here?

The Mona will say don't need dastar and others will say you need it.  What did this question accomplish other than rift more Sikhs apart because they couldn't realize Gurmat.  Stop wasting your time and others.

 

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5 hours ago, Big_Tera said:

Is a person not a true Sikh unless he wears a turban?  What about those who wear one but do bad deeds. But you may have a mona who does good deeds. 

Which one is better?

I think a turban does not have much to.do.with spirituality or morality. It has to do.with khalsa and the Sikh panth. If u want to join the army or nation of the khalsa, you will need to follow the rules  and wear the uniform. Remember SGGS ji is the universal guru, and will teach and protect anyone in their sharan.

You can be a sikh, whos only aim is to better himself or you can be a sikh who wants to help all of humanity and the sikh panth in which case you will join the khalsa.

Another note, i am not sure how far a sikh can go spiritually if he has not formally accepted the guru ie taken amrit. Which would mean wearing a dastaar.

Also one should respect a turban wearing sikh, because he is proclaiming to the world that he is proud of his guru and is saying that i belong to the guru and is telling the world, he is committed to following the guru. One has to respect that commitment while a mona person gets all benefits from his guru, asks for things, gets paath done, but is not ready to accept the guru. And if a person wearing a turban is doing bad things, then i think we all have the right to tell them off because they are lying. On one hand they r saying i am committed to the guru while they purposely do the opposite

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On 10/06/2017 at 11:43 PM, Akalifauj said:

You always have these questions.  But when will you start teaching your mind from Gurbani and then present what you learned here?

The Mona will say don't need dastar and others will say you need it.  What did this question accomplish other than rift more Sikhs apart because they couldn't realize Gurmat.  Stop wasting your time and others.

 

How is this wasting time? Should Sikhs just follow anything without questioning it. That is similar to the muslim ideology.

 

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So is the crux of your question just "does having Kesh make you a better person" ?

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8 minutes ago, Kira said:

So is the crux of your question just "does having Kesh make you a better person" ?

My question is in the first post. 

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15 minutes ago, Big_Tera said:

My question is in the first post. 

you mention Monas. meaning those who don't keep kesh. Some Mona wear turbans too so that's why im actually confused.

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When I was growing up, moneh were magnanimous enough to put up their hands and say, "Y'know, I just can't deal with growing kesh and the daily responsibility of tying a dastaar. It's my fault, nobody else. The problem lies within me." At least they were honest back then.

Nowadays, as with most things, the desire to subvert perfectly valid norms and practices in the pursuit of discovering the so-called truth that's been kept from society thanks to some vague overarching conspiracy of suppression and deception, means shifting responsibility and blame for the individual's defects onto those very norms and values that were given to us solely for our benefit. Now, these people wish to chip away at the integrity of scripture to find a loophole or flimsily worded justification that will enable, or, best of all, approve of their personal life choices. 

I've long suspected future generations of Sikhs will graduate to openly disparaging certain Sikh teachings because they struggle to adhere to those values. The Dasam Granth issue was a precursor of what's yet to come. The final issue that will tear apart Sikhs will be the 5Ks / Baisakhi issue, i.e. huge numbers of followers will openly turn their back on the requirement of kesh and the need to take amrit. That's going to be the final nail in the coffin. It will be relegated to a small devout minority of fundamentalists who'll eventually be sidelined as an extreme or orthodox sect. Mainstream Sikhi will be redrawn as a soft, pacifist, Jain-esque faith requiring the minimum of dedication and adherence. That's the plan, believe me.

Questioning narratives and beliefs is incredibly important. Sikhs wouldn't exist if one particular individual who emerged in 1469 hadn't questioned the fundamentals of their existence and society in general. Yet, that spirit of discovery is being used to denigrate and undermine the very fabric of our beliefs. It's happening all over the world with all manner of philosophies and systems. "This is too difficult, therefore it must be wrong, because I can't possibly be expected to chisel away at improving myself thereby arriving at a place where I meet these conditions." It's this same attitude that has gradually destroyed the integrity of those things that are conducive to a successful and healthy society.

Saying that, the other side of the argument also holds water. It's controversial and not many will want to hear it: it's too easy to appear as a devout Sikh. There's no threshold of quality, or measurement of discerning the content of character behind the external appearance. Literally anyone, even the vilest of humans, can dress up as a Sikh. 

Edited by MisterrSingh
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6 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

When I was growing up, moneh were magnanimous enough to put up their hands and say, "Y'know, I just can't deal with growing kesh and the daily responsibility of tying a dastaar. It's my fault, nobody else. The problem lies within me." At least they were honest back then.

Nowadays, as with most things, the desire to subvert perfectly valid norms and practices in the pursuit of discovering the so-called truth that's been kept from society thanks to some vague overarching conspiracy of suppression and deception, means shifting responsibility and blame for the individual's defects onto those very norms and values that were given to us solely for our benefit. Now, these people wish to chip away at the integrity of scripture to find a loophole or flimsily worded justification that will enable, or, best of all, approve of their personal life choices. 

I've long suspected future generations of Sikhs will graduate to openly disparaging certain Sikh teachings because they struggle to adhere to those values. The Dasam Granth issue was a precursor of what's yet to come. The final issue that will tear apart Sikhs will be the 5Ks / Baisakhi issue, i.e. huge numbers of followers will openly turn their back on the requirement of kesh and the need to take amrit. That's going to be the final nail in the coffin. It will be relegated to a small devout minority of fundamentalists who'll eventually be sidelined as an extreme or orthodox sect. Mainstream Sikhi will be redrawn as a soft, pacifist, Jain-esque faith requiring the minimum of dedication and adherence. That's the plan, believe me.

Questioning narratives and beliefs is incredibly important. Sikhs wouldn't exist if one particular individual who emerged in 1469 hadn't questioned the fundamentals of their existence and society in general. Yet, that spirit of discovery is being used to denigrate and undermine the very fabric of our beliefs. It's happening all over the world with all manner of philosophies and systems. "This is too difficult, therefore it must be wrong, because I can't possibly be expected to chisel away at improving myself thereby arriving at a place where I meet these conditions." It's this same attitude that has gradually destroyed the integrity of those things that are conducive to a successful and healthy society.

Saying that, the other side of the argument also holds water. It's controversial and not many will want to hear it: it's too easy to appear as a devout Sikh. There's no threshold of quality, or measurement of discerning the content of character behind the external appearance. Literally anyone, even the vilest of humans, can dress up as a Sikh. 

If the reason we wear turban is because to stand up to the mughals. Also is the turban not an arabic origin tradition? 

Why copy the arabs. Im not against the turban or Growing of the hair. But Im saying why cant somone be considered a true Sikh without the turban. 

From what I understand the turban is a cloth used to cover the long hair aw it would look odd to have long hair without a covering of some sort. 

My other issue is the arrogance that Some Sikhs have just because they wear a turban and think they are better even though they drink and eat meat ect. 

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40 minutes ago, Big_Tera said:

If the reason we wear turban is because to stand up to the mughals. Also is the turban not an arabic origin tradition? 

Why copy the arabs. Im not against the turban or Growing of the hair. But Im saying why cant somone be considered a true Sikh without the turban. 

From what I understand the turban is a cloth used to cover the long hair aw it would look odd to have long hair without a covering of some sort. 

You can try to rationalise it however you wish, but thankfully it's a choice not a compulsion. If you aren't feeling it, then nobody is forcing you to do anything.

 

40 minutes ago, Big_Tera said:

My other issue is the arrogance that Some Sikhs have just because they wear a turban and think they are better even though they drink and eat meat ect. 

How does that affect your personal relationship with God, or even your level of adherence?

Edited by MisterrSingh
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38 minutes ago, Big_Tera said:

If the reason we wear turban is because to stand up to the mughals. Also is the turban not an arabic origin tradition? 

Why copy the arabs. Im not against the turban or Growing of the hair. But Im sltural thingaying why cant somone be considered a true Sikh without the turban. 

From what I understand the turban is a cloth used to cover the long hair aw it would look odd to have long hair without a covering of some sort. 

My other issue is the arrogance that Some Sikhs have just because they wear a turban and think they are better even though they drink and eat meat ect. 

no Arabs cannot claim it because it is a widespread cultural thing :Africans, Jews , early Christians, Chinese, Hindus wore turbans , well before they did.

first hukham was to live in the roop Waheguru ji gave us . 

to keep our kesh clean and in order - never to allow them to stay tangled like yogis and also keep the head covered with a chunni or dastar as our sir da sain is ever alive/ immortal and we are in Guru ji's presence always .

yes it  was a sign of rebellion but also humbleness ...the whole is more than the sum of the parts. 

It seems Bro the second is your MAIN point : If you find something objectionable first consider why it hurts you, perhaps deep down you know what the dastar is supposed to signify and how these people bring it into disrepute. Instead of you being angry at the requirement of a dastar by Guru ji, it would make sense to change the warped attitudes of the wearers .  Maybe one day you will  feel differently

 

 

 

 

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On 2017-6-10 at 11:43 PM, Akalifauj said:

You always have these questions.  But when will you start teaching your mind from Gurbani and then present what you learned here?

The Mona will say don't need dastar and others will say you need it.  What did this question accomplish other than rift more Sikhs apart because they couldn't realize Gurmat.  Stop wasting your time and others.

 

To be khalsa you undoubtedly need to fully accept the responsibilities of upholding the maryada that comes with it.. But to be a Sikh dastaar is not a requirement... 

The question was quite simple.. To paraphrase 'Is one a Sikh if one doesn't have a dastaar'? I would say the resounding answer is yes they can be.. 

Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth 

Dashmesh pita makes that the only requirement.. We should not conflate the term Sikh with khalsa 

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15 hours ago, Big_Tera said:

How is this wasting time? Should Sikhs just follow anything without questioning it. That is similar to the muslim ideology.

 

Gurbani speaks on the dastar.  Why are you scared to ask Guru Sahib?  Guru Sahib does not bite.  Since you have many questions like this.  It shows you are lazy to read Gurbani and/or you could careless what Guru sahib says and need some entertainment in life and come on forums to get this entertainment.  The wisdom from Gurbani is limitless.  Yet you choose to ask these questions to limited beings on forums who you don't know and very well could be just lazy as you.  A Sikh will learn from his Guru and present the teachings.  Today you don't even need to read every Ang of Gurbani.  You can type in key words into Gurbani search engines and find majority of the Gurbani written on dastar.  Instead of doing this you act like a whiney little school girl.....why can't I ask questions to manmukhs.......I want manmukh answers and no answer from the Guru.....leave me alone....waaaah waaah......

Edited by Akalifauj
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